Frontier predicts wider loss than forecast.

[stillflyn]

Frontier predicts wider loss than forecast
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DENVER (AP) — Frontier Airlines on Tuesday warned it would post a wider-than-expected loss in the third quarter because of storm-related expenses in December and fewer passengers on some routes to sunny destinations.
It was the second time in the past month that Frontier has revised its forecast for the October-December quarter. It predicted a pretax loss ranging between 78 cents and 88 cents a share excluding special items. That compared with Dec. 5 guidance of a pretax loss of 58 cents to 68 cents per share excluding special items.

RELATED NEWS: Southwest to grow in Denver
"We are further revising the guidance we provided at the beginning of December because of higher-than-expected operating expenses related to the winter storms at our Denver hub and throughout the Midwest in late December," Sean Menke, Frontier's chief executive officer, said in a statement.

He also noted traffic was weaker than anticipated on some non-Denver routes to sunny destinations such as Memphis-to-Orlando. The airline previously announced it will eliminate those routes as of Thursday.

FIND MORE STORIES IN: Tuesday | Denver | Southwest | December | Frontier Airlines | Denver International Airport
Frontier's stock fell 20 cents, or 4.1%, to close at $4.65 a share in Tuesday trading.

The carrier revised its guidance as it reported a 31.7% increase in revenue passenger miles for December, to 798.8 million from 606.7 million in December 2006.

Its occupancy rate increased to 72.6% from 68.2%. Mainline passenger revenue per available seat mile rose 8.1% to 8.39 cents from 7.76 cents in December 2006.

Frontier has been battered by skyrocketing fuel prices and aggressive competition at Denver International Airport, where it competes against United Airlines and Southwest. The competition has proven to benefit consumers with lower ticket prices and more choices.

The forecast came as rival Southwest Airlines Co. scheduled a Wednesday news conference where it is expected to announce an expanded flight schedule in Denver. A spokeswoman for Dallas-based Southwest declined comment until then.

Southwest has called Denver one of its fastest-growing cities, where it operates 56 daily flights to 16 cities, up from 13 flights to three locations when it re-entered the market in January 2006.

 

[Sedona16]

This really stinks as I have some good friends over at Frontier and it has been a class operation save its up and down management moves. Hate to say it but unless Frontier gets rescued by a merger or cash infusion I don't see them around in 18 months. SWA smells blood and is all too happy to move the cattle wagons in.

 

[waveflyer]

It only sucks b/c we have an insane seniority system that makes all of their pilots start completely over if they liquidate....

They're on par w/ every kid 3 years into their regional- it's just dumb- and it takes leverage away from ALL of us

 

[Beechnut]

Alright, I'll bite.

Why should a pilot who devoted 11 years to his company while I devoted 10 years to my company be able to come over here when his company fails and be senior to me?

I know one list would never happen (thank goodness) but I just don't understand why people even talk about it.

S.

 

[jonjuan]

It only sucks b/c we have an insane seniority system that makes all of their pilots start completely over if they liquidate....

They're on par w/ every kid 3 years into their regional- it's just dumb- and it takes leverage away from ALL of us

Why should a 20 year military pilot have to start at the bottom of the list, behind some 28 year old kid 1 year into their major? Insane, indeed.

 

[Sedona16]

Alright, I'll bite.

Why should a pilot who devoted 11 years to his company while I devoted 10 years to my company be able to come over here when his company fails and be senior to me?

I know one list would never happen (thank goodness) but I just don't understand why people even talk about it.

S.

It has more to do with collective bargaining and keeping wages, work rules high across the board than it does with some guy stepping in above you. This job has gone to hell in a hand basket in recent years. If pilots could draw a line in the sand and say we across the board wont go lower than such and such, maintains some sort of sanity to the work rules and profession. The remaining scab like appendages of the industry (ie guys at Skywest (65%) who chose not to vote on a union and undercut the industry on pay....see 99 seats for 50 seat pay) would need to be blocked from the list perminently and publicly broadcast named for the cancer producing infection they are. There would be no guarentees but a national seniority list would have stood a much better chance of maintaining the profession than what we have here today. Remember, currently a pilot who sticks his and his families neck out for the good of the profession can get his head lobbed off and have to start at the very bottom. This is not true in many other industries that are not seniority based. Management takes advantage of this fact.

 

[Sedona16]

Why should a 20 year military pilot have to start at the bottom of the list, behind some 28 year old kid 1 year into their major? Insane, indeed.

Points given for years of military service adjusted for military retirement is one idea.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Why should a 20 year military pilot have to start at the bottom of the list, behind some 28 year old kid 1 year into their major? Insane, indeed.

Totally agree. If I have to take a job at Delta, shouldn't gereral lee be junior to me...but then again, shouldn't that guy be junior to everyone?

 

[Beechnut]

What kind of points would a civilian guy get for time spent in flying Cargo, Corporate or any other job they took while getting to a major?

This is the dumbest thread I've ever been apart of.

S.

 

[Sedona16]

What kind of points would a civilian guy get for time spent in flying Cargo, Corporate or any other job they took while getting to a major?

This is the dumbest thread I've ever been apart of.

S.

Why not add a couple of the most overused cliches in your post while you are at it:

"I just waisted two minutes of my life that I will never get back" AND "I just threw up in my mouth a little".

Bottom line you dont have to worry...the chance for national seniority is zero percent. Besides its better to bitch and complain than think about how to improve this profession in a collective way.

 

[jonjuan]

It has more to do with collective bargaining and keeping wages, work rules high across the board than it does with some guy stepping in above you. This job has gone to hell in a hand basket in recent years. If pilots could draw a line in the sand and say we across the board wont go lower than such and such, maintains some sort of sanity to the work rules and profession. The remaining scab like appendages of the industry (ie guys at Skywest (65%) who chose not to vote on a union and undercut the industry on pay....see 99 seats for 50 seat pay) would need to be blocked from the list perminently and publicly broadcast named for the cancer producing infection they are. There would be no guarentees but a national seniority list would have stood a much better chance of maintaining the profession than what we have here today. Remember, currently a pilot who sticks his and his families neck out for the good of the profession can get his head lobbed off and have to start at the very bottom. This is not true in many other industries that are not seniority based. Management takes advantage of this fact.

What about the pilot who went to work for Frontier knowing they are very aggressive in pricing and in part, thrived on under-cutting and taking business from the more established, albeit, more expensive legacy carriers? "Yeah, but all they were doing was sticking their necks out for themselves and their families."

 

[PCL_128]

It only sucks b/c we have an insane seniority system that makes all of their pilots start completely over if they liquidate....

They're on par w/ every kid 3 years into their regional- it's just dumb- and it takes leverage away from ALL of us

Still stuck on that unworkable idea, huh?

 

[bugchaser]

Why should a 20 year military pilot have to start at the bottom of the list, behind some 28 year old kid 1 year into their major? Insane, indeed.

Thats a joke, right?

 

[Tanker Clown]

Thats a joke, right?

If you have to ask then I have a piece of real estate near a toxic waste dump to sell you. Toxic waste is the wave of the future. Get in on the ground floor.

 

[Sedona16]

What about the pilot who went to work for Frontier knowing they are very aggressive in pricing and in part, thrived on under-cutting and taking business from the more established, albeit, more expensive legacy carriers? "Yeah, but all they were doing was sticking their necks out for themselves and their families."

If you want to frame it that way to make a point then go ahead but dont try to make it seem like I was defending Frontier as a low cost carrier. I have friends there I feel bad for. I dont like the fact that SWA is doing to them what they have done to many legacies across the years. I would have prefered a national list in the fourties and no such thing as a LCC.

 

[Larcifer]

SWA is just doing to F9 as F9 did to UAL. Sucks but that is the way free market works. How many out there go to Wal-Mart, Costco, Homedepot etc, instead of the local Mom and Pop store? SWA has what the flying domestic public want...lots of options and cheap fares. There is currently to much domestic capacity and the weak won't survive.

 

[pipe]

It only sucks b/c we have an insane seniority system that makes all of their pilots start completely over if they liquidate....

They're on par w/ every kid 3 years into their regional- it's just dumb- and it takes leverage away from ALL of us

There are many, many captains at f9 that were two years or less to the left seat. It would probably be small consolation to them to take their 2-5 years of seniority to the right seat of some major.

They took a chance on F9, were handsomely rewarded with upgrades and pay that rose incredibly fast , and now the risk part of the equation is coming home to roost.

I worked there, I loved it, the people are great. Fact is though, 12-18 month Captain is usually too good to be true. In this case it may turn out that it is. It's kinda the dot-com bubble of seat progression.

Good luck to everybody there. I think it's literally the best coach-class product in the industry, and it's a great place to work. Unfortunately, I think another major market has just been "Wal-Marted".

PIPE

 

[USMC319]

I worked there, I loved it, the people are great. Fact is though, 12-18 month Captain is usually too good to be true. In this case it may turn out that it is. It's kinda the dot-com bubble of seat progression.

Good luck to everybody there. I think it's literally the best coach-class product in the industry, and it's a great place to work. Unfortunately, I think another major market has just been "Wal-Marted".
PIPE

I agree with most of that Pipe, however, this isn't the first rodeo for most of us. Several of us have given up on seniority numbers with our previous "major airlines" and have come to Frontier via the hard road. Not too many guys that I know of just bounced into a commuter and then here for a quick upgrade in years. In fact the 18 month upgrade has been a thing of the past for years as well. Remember that Frontier has done most of its growth between 9-11 and now, a time when few airlines were hiring, so they got a lot of very experienced folks.

 

[pipe]

I agree with most of that Pipe, however, this isn't the first rodeo for most of us. Several of us have given up on seniority numbers with our previous "major airlines" and have come to Frontier via the hard road. Not too many guys that I know of just bounced into a commuter and then here for a quick upgrade in years. In fact the 18 month upgrade has been a thing of the past for years as well. Remember that Frontier has done most of its growth between 9-11 and now, a time when few airlines were hiring, so they got a lot of very experienced folks.

You are absolutely correct. That was the reality a few years ago when I was there (after giving up on my own major airline seniority number).

I guess my point is that everyone at every airline has had to do their own risk/reward computation. Many at f9 took big risks and were handsomely rewarded. I fear that the risk is rearing it's head now.

When I was at f9 I was appalled at Potter's desire to expand while refusing to branch out of DEN. It was so obviously a case of all the eggs in one basket. SWA would not have the leverage it does over f9 if Potter would have concentrated a little more on diversification.

PIPE

 

[stillflyn]

How did this get so far off track. When you loose your job you start at the bottom.... that's life at the airlines.

 

[Sedona16]

SWA is just doing to F9 as F9 did to UAL. Sucks but that is the way free market works. How many out there go to Wal-Mart, Costco, Homedepot etc, instead of the local Mom and Pop store? SWA has what the flying domestic public want...lots of options and cheap fares. There is currently to much domestic capacity and the weak won't survive.

I agree with this statement.

 

[Sedona16]

There are many, many captains at f9 that were two years or less to the left seat. It would probably be small consolation to them to take their 2-5 years of seniority to the right seat of some major.

They took a chance on F9, were handsomely rewarded with upgrades and pay that rose incredibly fast , and now the risk part of the equation is coming home to roost.

I worked there, I loved it, the people are great. Fact is though, 12-18 month Captain is usually too good to be true. In this case it may turn out that it is. It's kinda the dot-com bubble of seat progression.

Good luck to everybody there. I think it's literally the best coach-class product in the industry, and it's a great place to work. Unfortunately, I think another major market has just been "Wal-Marted".

PIPE

And a very similar story at JB, Skybus, VA, Airtran, etc None of these so far have been good for the business. SWA in recent years have held their own in pay but everything else about that operation undercutting everybody else has not been good.

 

[airline#5]

"what they have done to many legacies"

Dude, they don't discriminate in the destruction of other airlines, ask ATA, Vanguard, and soon AirTran, not to mention other LCC's who's pilots are driving trucks. I've been on the receiving end several times, but unlike the major airline whiners I don't blame SWA for being a better player in a game where most players lose. However, I will never pay for training. So I got that going for me...and a bunch of debt!!?!

 

[400ADude]

And a very similar story at JB, Skybus, VA, Airtran, etc None of these so far have been good for the business. SWA in recent years have held their own in pay but everything else about that operation undercutting everybody else has not been good.

Undercutting is another term for getting beat. Your management blew it, hard.

 

[737 Pylt]

Undercutting is another term for getting beat. Your management blew it, hard.

Uh......He said......Blew it......Hard.......:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[waveflyer]

pipe- many professionals take many risks- but how many of them start over at $30k and have their experience count for nothing when they do?

A new hire teacher in wisconsin-out of college! starts at $40k! That risk and culture and quick upgrade to go to F9 would still be there w/ a national list. I know many over there that could've been at any handful of majors by now- but enjoyed it there. All i'm saying and will continue to say is that when we have to start over at poverty wages- it takes a huge amount of leverage from us in negotiations. I know what is, i know what's fair and what's not- and don't really care about that- I just think it's stupid business wise for us to have our career set up that way. There has to be a better way.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Wave...the government took away our leverage! Every time someone from a large carrier tries to strike, they will be told that it is an illegal strike. Politics...we are bus drivers...

 

[waveflyer]

Wave...the government took away our leverage! Every time someone from a large carrier tries to strike, they will be told that it is an illegal strike. Politics...we are bus drivers...

very true- which is why we don't need to set up our careers in such an inflexible way and take away even more leverage- Think about it- if a company is screwing around too much- now- we have to take it-we can't leave if we wanted to- if we could change company's w/o having to start over- more could choose to leave- thus punishing a bad company w/o having to strike- let the market work for us- seniority is our creation- supposed to make things fair and secure- How many pilots actually feel that way?

And then you said the bus driver comment- It's bad enough when rampers and pax say it- but when pilots say it- it bugs the s!!t out of me- the difference- a kid w/a ged can learn how to be a bus driver in a few days-= see if they can be a pilot at all= you all forget how many real capable people would crap their pants at the stuff we find routine-

 

[njcapt]

Dude, they don't discriminate in the destruction of other airlines, ask ATA, Vanguard, and soon AirTran, not to mention other LCC's who's pilots are driving trucks.

Jesus H. Christ, I worked for every one of them. I got out of the airline industry, in part, to avoid the massive whipsaw between various carriers and the lowering of standards for pay and QOL at the current red-headed-stepchildren among them.

F9 is just the latest one that is suffering from the inability to effectively adapt to changing market conditions.

 

[PCL_128]

Are we still arguing about ridiculous ideas like national seniority lists? I don't care whether you think it's the best idea since the pill, it's just never going to happen. Start worrying about real solutions rather than jerking off to thoughts of unreasonable ideas.