A Merry And SAFE Floptions Christmas

[Frac Cap]

I don't have any reliable source for the info. Just third hand info from someone who claims to be in the "know". It is just my personal belief that if HIG and Flops wants to signal a fresh start and show good will, a pay raise has to happen by the first of the year. Any other time would not make sense and it would show a sign of weakness due to union pressure having a negative impact to the company that they were trying to change. Additionally, I feel it would be extremely difficult to get quality pilots to take a job here for the lowest pay in the industry. If they don't stop the attrition, our training costs will go through the roof, and operationally we are going to suffer due to lack of crews. Just last week when the seniority list was updated, we lost 7 guys in 1 week. Stopping the attrition is going to have a tremendous affect on the bottom line, and a pay raise can easily help change this. Not acting on this potentially costly problem when it is in their power to do so, would in my opinion be operational negligence.

If a pay raise doesn't happen, it is just my feeling that HIG and Flops missed an opportunity for a fresh start and a chance to change our tarnished image and to get cooperation back due to new HIG ownership and no history of bad blood and broken promises.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[jetwash]

I can't see how they can come out now and give us a raise. Didn't BT use the excuse of negotiations as the reason they couldn't give us the supposed raise after the union vote.

I think it is just CGF BS.

Don't get me wrong, I would gladly accept any increase in pay that I should have been getting years ago.

 

[Frac Cap]

I'm not a labor law expert, but I thought only the time from the announcement of the vote and the completion of the vote any company is prohibited in increasing pay during that "laboratory period". Because a increase in pay can affect the votes. After that period I was under the assumption they could increase or decrease the pay an benefits providing there is "operational necessity". In other words, the company would be harmed in the marketplace if they didn't make the required changes. I think one can easily make a case we will be harmed in the market place trying to find, train and replace all our pilots that are leaving.

It is entirely possible the person that I hear the rumor from "a person in the know" could also be the same person that started the rumor that Swift was going to buy us. Who knows, but it kind of made sense. The fact is, I will believe it when my check says it.

 

[skanza]

non-management

Bull$hit. That's just a lame attempt at mitigating the fact that you were caught in your hypocrisy.

As for the spineless coward part; It is one thing if you're on the side of FLOPS management and take a stand. All of your posts are consistently gimpy and you make stupid arguments. I don't believe that you're part of a management effort to stake a presence of voice on this forum......if so, they should fire you because of your points have zero efficacy. Even though you have been proven wrong on a regular basis, you have repeatedly posted in favor of gross violations of FAR's. Your posts consistently suggest that you're just a simpleton ass kisser that refuses to take a stand for what is just. Hence, spineless coward.

Be true to your profession or get out.

Nice one. But there we go with needless name calling. Anyways, my "stupid" arguments are just points that I bring up people here don't address directly. I have to say again that I don't condone illegal operations, but it's like the union-folks try extra hard to "make an airplane safe to fly" (e.g. look for write-ups) for the purpose of stalling the operation just to make your point, instead of just a genuine concern for safety. See how childish that is? No one has answered that point directly because as soon as there is a post from that skanza-b!tch, it must be nonsense be cause she doesn't support the union. Therefore you don't read and consider the content. You should be true to yourself...
And again, I was aware of the name calling deal, and its not hipocrisy. If I were caught doing that, I would acknowledge it out of self respect.

So, why do pro-unioners create and promote "how to break a FLOPS (airframe here)" posts? Anyone?

 

[skanza]

Better yet, you ought to hope I don't find out who you really are.quote]

A threat? That's fine, then I'll know who you are. PM me.

I am also burdened with worries such as not being able to afford dental insurance next year, or how to pay my kids school lunches.

Maybe you should modify your living standards to match a pilot's salary. Just a suggestion. Remember, just because you fly rich people around, doesn't mean you are entilted to live like them. We're all bus drivers, just different size and speed busses.

Thats right let management and fools like you right burn it to the freekin ground, but wait there are so many people other than my greedy self that will lose their jobs too.

I'm sorry you have that "If I can't have it, no one can!" attitude. But it's pretty low to actively harm people you don't even know because of your problem. Were those other offers more money?, if so that would have been great for you-you get more money, FLOPS people=unharmed. Good luck.

 

[dime line]

Maybe you should modify your living standards to match a pilot's salary. Just a suggestion. Remember, just because you fly rich people around, doesn't mean you are entilted to live like them. We're all bus drivers, just different size and speed busses.

You can't be a pilot. You have to be management (or F&H). Ya have to be

 

[fischman]

I have to say again that I don't condone illegal operations, but it's like the union-folks try extra hard to "make an airplane safe to fly" (e.g. look for write-ups)

This statement is a contradiction.

Every pilot of every aircraft should be looking "extra hard" for write ups. If you are not doing so, you are a danger to yourself and your crew. Shame on you for not trying your hardest.

I applaud the "union folks" in doing so, and encourage you to do the same. I wonder if the FAA feels the same way I do?

I suggest you rethink your stance on this.

 

[Frac Cap]

Better yet, you ought to hope I don't find out who you really are.quote]

A threat? That's fine, then I'll know who you are. PM me..

Please, can't we all just play nice. We are all in this thing together, well I at least most of us I think. We all have different point of views, and each should be respected, even if some are out in left field as a minority. It is a point of view, and should be debated and discussed maturely. When we get angry and start threatening each other, our point of view and message looses credibility as a mature debate.

Just my 1 cent (I still work at Flops, can't afford 2).

 

[skanza]

Please, can't we all just play nice. We are all in this thing together, well I at least most of us I think. We all have different point of views, and each should be respected, even if some are out in left field as a minority. It is a point of view, and should be debated and discussed maturely. When we get angry and start threatening each other, our point of view and message looses credibility as a mature debate.

Just my 1 cent (I still work at Flops, can't afford 2).

Very well put! I agree totally and hope that discussions do stay mature and open-minded to what others have to say. Thank you, sir (or 'mam).

 

[Frac Cap]

I am glad to help, and pleased you are receptive to an open minded forum. Thank YOU sir or madam.

Happy Holidays to everyone......and yes even to management. (it is the time for forgiveness, and miracles, ......so how about that pay raise?)

 

[WabiSabi]

Nice one. But there we go with needless name calling. Anyways, my "stupid" arguments are just points that I bring up people here don't address directly. I have to say again that I don't condone illegal operations, but it's like the union-folks try extra hard to "make an airplane safe to fly" (e.g. look for write-ups) for the purpose of stalling the operation just to make your point, instead of just a genuine concern for safety. See how childish that is? No one has answered that point directly because as soon as there is a post from that skanza-b!tch, it must be nonsense be cause she doesn't support the union. Therefore you don't read and consider the content. You should be true to yourself...
And again, I was aware of the name calling deal, and its not hipocrisy. If I were caught doing that, I would acknowledge it out of self respect.

Not so fast.

A) Referring to your posts as stupid is not name calling. Your posts are, for the most part, stupid.

B) An airplane is either broken, or it isn't. Damn right one should try "extra hard" to find discrepancies.

C) If you're going to back pedal, at least give it a decent try. You were caught in your hypocrisy and no amount of back pedaling will change that.

D) If you have a problem with professional pilots helping each other with the intricacies of preflights, then you need to quit flying for a living and take a non safety sensitive line of work.

So, why do pro-unioners create and promote "how to break a FLOPS (airframe here)" posts? Anyone?

This thread did not have that title. The thread's title was "How to preflight a FLOPS Beechjet"

Your intentional and blatant misquote shows your pro management at all costs mentality. You sound like a couple of the lackeys on the mx row when you call with a discrepancy and they refer to it is the "pilots broke it". With your attitude, you should go fly a desk and leave the flying to professionals that actually believe in preflights.

The IBT does not condone illegitimate write ups. They have always emphasized; Do not do anything illegal for or against the company.

Yep, you're spineless. That isn't name-calling. It's an observation based on your conduct.

 

[skanza]

Not so fast.

A) Referring to your posts as stupid is not name calling. Your posts are, for the most part, stupid.

B) An airplane is either broken, or it isn't. Damn right one should try "extra hard" to find discrepancies.

C) If you're going to back pedal, at least give it a decent try. You were caught in your hypocrisy and no amount of back pedaling will change that.

D) If you have a problem with professional pilots helping each other with the intricacies of preflights, then you need to quit flying for a living and take a non safety sensitive line of work.



This thread did not have that title. The thread's title was "How to preflight a FLOPS Beechjet"

Your intentional and blatant misquote shows your pro management at all costs mentality. You sound like a couple of the lackeys on the mx row when you call with a discrepancy and they refer to it is the "pilots broke it". With your attitude, you should go fly a desk and leave the flying to professionals that actually believe in preflights.

The IBT does not condone illegitimate write ups. They have always emphasized; Do not do anything illegal for or against the company.

Yep, you're spineless. That isn't name-calling. It's an observation based on your conduct.

I guess I need to clairify:
The thread was called "How to preflight a FLOPS Beechjet", but anyone with any sense of the situation can read it as "how to ground a FLOPs Beechjet". Examples from the thread:
power lever gators (the rubber that keeps stuff from falling into the pedastal) needs to be intact and not worn or the airplane is down.

hydraulic lines that go into the pressure switches below the reservoir (mx might try to get you to leave a rag in there for the next flight to check for drips. this is unsafe and illegal) don't even reach in to wipe them (I can't reach them anyway and I have slender long arms)

missing rings/washers on the air stairs.

push engine fire switches to see if the respective h/v and f/v valves close and check to see if the fire bottles go into arm mode (this isn't on the checklist (be careful to not blow the bottles!))

don't let them MEL both EFB's under the guise that you can have charts faxed as GOM, SOP's etc are required to be on board

And one guy even admitted to trying to ground the airplane here:

Oh yeah, and make sure to do the ENTIRE anti-ice check prior to takeoff (assuming you haven't grounded it yet) as we're getting into icing season. . .

a.k.a. h-stb fail season

Now come on, these are not just "helpful hints for safety", they are blatent attempts to disrupt the operation in the name of the union . How could this be interpreted otherwise? Once again, if you try to make your point like this too much and end up closing the place, there will be nothing left to negotiate...

 

[WabiSabi]

I guess I need to clairify:
The thread was called "How to preflight a FLOPS Beechjet", but anyone with any sense of the situation can read it as "how to ground a FLOPs Beechjet". Examples from the thread:
power lever gators (the rubber that keeps stuff from falling into the pedastal) needs to be intact and not worn or the airplane is down.

hydraulic lines that go into the pressure switches below the reservoir (mx might try to get you to leave a rag in there for the next flight to check for drips. this is unsafe and illegal) don't even reach in to wipe them (I can't reach them anyway and I have slender long arms)

missing rings/washers on the air stairs.

push engine fire switches to see if the respective h/v and f/v valves close and check to see if the fire bottles go into arm mode (this isn't on the checklist (be careful to not blow the bottles!))

don't let them MEL both EFB's under the guise that you can have charts faxed as GOM, SOP's etc are required to be on board

And one guy even admitted to trying to ground the airplane here:

Oh yeah, and make sure to do the ENTIRE anti-ice check prior to takeoff (assuming you haven't grounded it yet) as we're getting into icing season. . .

a.k.a. h-stb fail season

Now come on, these are not just "helpful hints for safety", they are blatent attempts to disrupt the operation in the name of the union . How could this be interpreted otherwise? Once again, if you try to make your point like this too much and end up closing the place, there will be nothing left to negotiate...

Skanza, in the past, your professionalism has been in doubt. You are way beyond that now and your unprofessional attitude is certain so you should not fly any airplane for a living. You have clearly stated that you are anti preflight so now I doubt you're even fit to fly an airplane as a student or private pilot. You just don't get it.

Do yourself, your would be passengers and innocent bystanders a favor and exercise your right to voluntarily surrender your certificate.

 

[fischman]

I guess I need to clairify:
The thread was called "How to preflight a FLOPS Beechjet", but anyone with any sense of the situation can read it as "how to ground a FLOPs Beechjet". Examples from the thread:
power lever gators (the rubber that keeps stuff from falling into the pedastal) needs to be intact and not worn or the airplane is down.

hydraulic lines that go into the pressure switches below the reservoir (mx might try to get you to leave a rag in there for the next flight to check for drips. this is unsafe and illegal) don't even reach in to wipe them (I can't reach them anyway and I have slender long arms)

missing rings/washers on the air stairs.

push engine fire switches to see if the respective h/v and f/v valves close and check to see if the fire bottles go into arm mode (this isn't on the checklist (be careful to not blow the bottles!))

don't let them MEL both EFB's under the guise that you can have charts faxed as GOM, SOP's etc are required to be on board

And one guy even admitted to trying to ground the airplane here:

Oh yeah, and make sure to do the ENTIRE anti-ice check prior to takeoff (assuming you haven't grounded it yet) as we're getting into icing season. . .

a.k.a. h-stb fail season

Now come on, these are not just "helpful hints for safety", they are blatent attempts to disrupt the operation in the name of the union . How could this be interpreted otherwise? Once again, if you try to make your point like this too much and end up closing the place, there will be nothing left to negotiate...

So, what if they DO find an issue with one of those systems? Are they trying to ground the plane, or are they heros for possible saving a lives?

There is nothing wrong with doing a thorough preflight inspection, and I would have issue with any pilot who DOESN'T perform a detailed inspection.

Think about what you type before you type it. You are in a no-win situation with this arguement.

 

[skanza]

Well I guess I must clarify further: I also dont't have a problem with a thorough preflight because the proper operation of that machine is what my life depends on...we agree on that. What I'm saying is that these examples of preflight items are driven by the union trying to strong-arm managment into a deal by disrupting the operation. I keep saying that and no one responds directly.
Second, I am not trying to win an arguement, I'm just presenting this situation with another view. So if you want to argue, you're outta luck with me. Don't tell me you can't see the "hee-hee, this will show 'em" attitude behind these and other examples of how to ground these airplanes!!
Finally,
I think "hero" is an overstatement. You're saying that a life is in jeopardy if the EFBs are inop? How did they ever fly safely 20, 40 years ago without them?...
Wabi,
niether you nor I are in the position to judge another's professionalism. And frankly, it's only important to respect yourself in this reguard.

 

[fischman]

Well I guess I must clarify further: I also don't have a problem with a thorough preflight because the proper operation of that machine is what my life depends on...we agree on that. What I'm saying is that these examples of preflight items are driven by the union trying to strong-arm management into a deal by disrupting the operation. I keep saying that and no one responds directly.
Second, I am not trying to win an argument, I'm just presenting this situation with another view. So if you want to argue, you're outta luck with me. Don't tell me you can't see the "hee-hee, this will show 'em" attitude behind these and other examples of how to ground these airplanes!!
Finally,
I think "hero" is an overstatement. You're saying that a life is in jeopardy if the EFBs are inop? How did they ever fly safely 20, 40 years ago without them?...
Wabi,
neither you nor I are in the position to judge another's professionalism. And frankly, it's only important to respect yourself in this regard.

When the sh!t hits the fan, trust me you are either going to be a hero or a goat. So which one do you want to be?

Preflight the plane every time. Thoroughly.

Be a professional. Let me ask you a serious question. Who do you think is the better professional? One that finds a write-up and gets the mission done anyway, or the one who tells the owner there is going to be a 15 minute delay to get some important safety items addressed? Who do you think the owner appreciates more?

I'll tell you that I recently had a Mx issue that grounded the plane. Instead of going to the hotel, I was at the plane with the owner showing him the actual instrument that was malfunctioning, then showing him the MEL, then telling him WHY that grounded the plane. I then served him and his friends drinks until the recovery plane arrived.

Was he upset to be inconvenienced? Sure. Did he insist that we were the crew to take him to his destination? YES. Did I feel bad about grounding the plane for a "silly" write-up? NOT ONE BIT.

Be a professional. Be a man. Don't fly broken airplanes.

 

[dime line]

Well I guess I must clarify further: I also dont't have a problem with a thorough preflight because the proper operation of that machine is what my life depends on...we agree on that. What I'm saying is that these examples of preflight items are driven by the union trying to strong-arm managment into a deal by disrupting the operation. I keep saying that and no one responds directly.
Second, I am not trying to win an arguement, I'm just presenting this situation with another view. So if you want to argue, you're outta luck with me. Don't tell me you can't see the "hee-hee, this will show 'em" attitude behind these and other examples of how to ground these airplanes!!
Finally,

I think "hero" is an overstatement. You're saying that a life is in jeopardy if the EFBs are inop? How did they ever fly safely 20, 40 years ago without them?...

Wabi,
niether you nor I are in the position to judge another's professionalism. And frankly, it's only important to respect yourself in this reguard.

You are right the plane will not crash, but if a divert in flight needed to happen, and you were down to oney Fujitsu, and it craped, well now your now in a predicament. Your right 20,30,40 years ago, we had paper charts, welcome to the new age.

Ever had a Fujitsu crap? I have
Ever had the other Fujitsu crap? I have

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Again, guys, you really need to be aware of examples you use and shield yourselves from the data mining that results from seemingly innocuous anecdotes.

 

[Galaxy]

Again, guys, you really need to be aware of examples you use and shield yourselves from the data mining that results from seemingly innocuous anecdotes.

Huh? I don't see it?

 

[dime line]

Again, guys, you really need to be aware of examples you use and shield yourselves from the data mining that results from seemingly innocuous anecdotes.

uh huh

 

[SilverSurfer]

Fud From The Voice Of Treason

Again, guys, you really need to be aware of examples you use and shield yourselves from the data mining that results from seemingly innocuous anecdotes.

FUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUD FUD FUD FUD FUDFUDFUDFUD FUD
From The Voice Of Treason​

 

[WabiSabi]

Well I guess I must clarify further: I also dont't have a problem with a thorough preflight because the proper operation of that machine is what my life depends on...we agree on that. What I'm saying is that these examples of preflight items are driven by the union trying to strong-arm managment into a deal by disrupting the operation. I keep saying that and no one responds directly.

Maybe you're not getting the response that you're looking for but there have been many responses. The union always has and always will encourage the pilot group to not do anything illegal for or against the company. What part of that don't you understand? The union has never encouraged disrupting the operation....besides, that is illegal. You seem to contend that they do yet you have shown zero proof.

Now, I have seen pilots, myself included, hope that the OCC "steps on their own penis" but so what? There is nothing wrong with stepping back and watching the train wreck. All of this aside, management needs to get the message that the days of favors are long gone. The fact that they're going out of their way to disrespect the pilot group with pay cuts, benefit cuts, dangerous scheduling, intimidation meetings, unjust firings, crappy hotels, taking domiciles, favoritism, changing the very definition of circadian low periods, etc. is ironic when, after all of this, expect the pilot group to go the extra mile. Sure, there are those that have the attitude of "let's find some discrepancies so it will really stick it to 'em". Again, so what? If the discrepancies are legit, then what's the problem? Disrupting operations is not the mantra of the union.

Don't tell me you can't see the "hee-hee, this will show 'em" attitude behind these and other examples of how to ground these airplanes!!

How write ups make pilots feel is irrelevant. I've been in situations in which writing up a discrepancy was a personal disadvantage in terms of me getting home earlier on day 8. However, that didn't stop me from putting pen to paper. Again, if the write ups are legit, laugh or cry, there's no problem.

Second, I am not trying to win an arguement, I'm just presenting this situation with another view. So if you want to argue, you're outta luck with me. Don't tell me you can't see the "hee-hee, this will show 'em" attitude behind these and other examples of how to ground these airplanes!!
Finally,
I think "hero" is an overstatement. You're saying that a life is in jeopardy if the EFBs are inop? How did they ever fly safely 20, 40 years ago without them?...

Yet another one of your blatantly unprofessional statements. The EFB's have replaced the charts necessary to safely conduct approaches. When one is inop, the MEL requires that the appropriate charts are printed to back up the remaining EFB. IF both are inop then it is a no go because the ops specs, MEL, etc are required to be on board. Yes, conducting approaches in IMC without the necessary information can put life in jeopardy.

Wabi,
niether you nor I are in the position to judge another's professionalism. And frankly, it's only important to respect yourself in this reguard.

That is just your opinion with which I happen to disagree. Both ALPA and the IBT have professional standards committees. With these "Prostan" committees, one's professionalism is indeed subject to review by one's peers. I don't know you but, based on reading your posts, I do not respect you as a professional. While working, if you conduct yourself in a way that resembles your posts (i.e. overlooking discrepancies), then you would eventually have to go before the prostan committee.

If you don't like it, get out.

 

[skanza]

Well I must thank everyone for replying with good information and an almost lack of hatred towards my post. This thread is now getting back to the purpose of a forum and not a place to just bash one another without respecting others comments.

When the sh!t hits the fan, trust me you are either going to be a hero or a goat. So which one do you want to be?

Preflight the plane every time. Thoroughly.

Be a professional. Let me ask you a serious question. Who do you think is the better professional? One that finds a write-up and gets the mission done anyway, or the one who tells the owner there is going to be a 15 minute delay to get some important safety items addressed? Who do you think the owner appreciates more?

I'll tell you that I recently had a Mx issue that grounded the plane. Instead of going to the hotel, I was at the plane with the owner showing him the actual instrument that was malfunctioning, then showing him the MEL, then telling him WHY that grounded the plane. I then served him and his friends drinks until the recovery plane arrived.

Was he upset to be inconvenienced? Sure. Did he insist that we were the crew to take him to his destination? YES. Did I feel bad about grounding the plane for a "silly" write-up? NOT ONE BIT.

Nice, you need a Higher Plane card for this. (I'm not kidding) I'm sure the owners understand that airplanes break sometimes and sticking around and tending to them until the recovery arrived is part of their service experience. This shows them and FLOPs that you weren't trying to slow things down, you were providing a safe product. And I do preflight every time, who doesn't and why not?

Wabi, I believe that the union cannot (and probably does not) condone disrupting the operation. But there are a lot of people that interpret a union-management struggle as "us against them", them being the company and lets shut 'em down if we don't get what we want. Those are the people I have a problem with and I will not in my limited capacity (like everyone here) try to identify them, but they know who they are. Maybe it's the auto-workers and railmen mentality of years ago that disrupting the operation will scare the evil management into giving in. I'm believe most pilots are above that...but there are some of the other in every crowd...

You are right the plane will not crash, but if a divert in flight needed to happen, and you were down to oney Fujitsu, and it craped, well now your now in a predicament. Your right 20,30,40 years ago, we had paper charts, welcome to the new age.

Ever had a Fujitsu crap? I have
Ever had the other Fujitsu crap? I have

Yeah those things are junk, but we don't need to start the "what if" questions here, there are a lot.

Be a professional. Be a man. Don't fly broken airplanes.

Well, I'll be pro and I won't fly a broken airplane, because like I stated earlier that's my ride e ground and I want to make it back safely. But don't ask me to change other things...

 

[fischman]

Nice, you need a Higher Plane card for this. (I'm not kidding) I'm sure the owners understand that airplanes break sometimes and sticking around and tending to them until the recovery arrived is part of their service experience. This shows them and FLOPs that you weren't trying to slow things down, you were providing a safe product. And I do preflight every time, who doesn't and why not?

Honestly, being the best professional you can be is the best way to get to that coveted contract. Show the company why you DESERVE that contract. Show the owners the incredible efforts you go through to ensure their safe arrival. If you take the time, they will let management know.

As I stated earlier, be professional, keep that ice water flowing in your veins, provide excellence in customer service, and fly safe.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Show the owners the incredible efforts you go through to ensure their safe arrival. If you take the time, they will let management know.

Dude management does not give a crap what the owners or our new charter customers think or what they have to say about the pilots. Management has acknowledged for years up to the present that our pax love us and yet management continues to treat us as if we are nothing more then an irrelevant, necessary aggravation. Management will change nothing until we force them to. When we give management no choice but to get serious about a contract thats when our negotiation will make big progress and not until.

You want a contract get in the fight.

 

[WabiSabi]

But there are a lot of people that interpret a union-management struggle as "us against them", them being the company and lets shut 'em down if we don't get what we want. Those are the people I have a problem with and I will not in my limited capacity (like everyone here) try to identify them, but they know who they are. Maybe it's the auto-workers and railmen mentality of years ago that disrupting the operation will scare the evil management into giving in. I'm believe most pilots are above that...but there are some of the other in every crowd...

Look, management has hired a law firm. F&H is ostensibly here to represent management in negotiations. BS! They're doing everything but negotiating. Instead, they're waging a war by systematically trying to break the pilot group through intimidation, unjust firings, pay cuts, etc. I have since quit so, I no longer have a dog in this fight. However, when I was there, damn right is was "us against them". I hope that is still the case.

I'll continue to support the IBT FLOPS pilots from afar.