APAAD Founders

[Doug Parker]

anybody have a list of APAAD Founders and Major Supporters who are still active Pilots?

Would be nice to have a hard-copy list to slide in the same binder as the ALPA Master Scab list, Freedumb A List and HoHoHojets List....


"Yes Alex, I'll take - People who will Never ride on my Jumpseat - for $1000"



!

 

[eaglefly]

anybody have a list of APAAD Founders and Major Supporters who are still active Pilots?

Would be nice to have a hard-copy list to slide in the same binder as the ALPA Master Scab list, Freedumb A List and HoHoHojets List....


"Yes Alex, I'll take - People who will Never ride on my Jumpseat - for $1000"



!

They couldn't care less about your jumpseat. They got theirs and you got the shaft...............


Live with it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Dude... you got politcally outmanuvered in your career. Democracy rules. You lost.

Maybe you'll learn from this? Maybe you won't

Maybe you'll get politically active and protect your career from Open Skies. maybe you won't...

Maybe you'll stop hating....
I doubt it...

But in the end.. your the politics of your career are real. Self government is the methodology....you just have to climb inside your mind....

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Hey Rez, How old are you?

 

[Flopgut]

There should be a list. It doesn't have to be a completely negative thing. But I would [will] continue to know where these guys are politically. I don't think these guys are done. Additionally, as a CAL pilot I've spent years listening to Prater's contemporaries gripe and moan about how much they lost during the strike and how much they hated scabs. It's been 25 years and it has not let up. There are as many as 100-300 CAL pilots today that are going to lose their seat due to this. NOT their projected, potential or theorhetical seat...the seat they are in right now, the one they've earned. If it were Prater and the gang getting this treatment: They would be putting names on a list!! (That question doesn't get asked enough, what would these old guys do if the age was changed the same way on them years ago??)

Rez: Consider that being a total slave to the process might be what they want you to do. You know: friends close, enemies closer? They could intend to proclaim foriegn control a foregone eventuality and, despite a wide majority against it, negotiate away our entire future to secure themselves a few MORE years.

Do you really believe if 75% of ALPA voted in the age surveys that Prater would a have done differently??

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: Consider that being a total slave to the process might be what they want you to do. You know: friends close, enemies closer? They could intend to proclaim foriegn control a foregone eventuality and, despite a wide majority against it, negotiate away our entire future to secure themselves a few MORE years.

That might be true.... how is being politically active a problem?

Do you really believe if 75% of ALPA voted in the age surveys that Prater would a have done differently??

So that is a reason to not to? I believe a larger consensus might have provided a different methodology. When I was a status rep I asked the membership what they wanted. I got zero reply. I bit insulted I was, so I did what ever the hell I wanted....all with apathy's blessing....

Hey Rez, How old are you?

Does it matter? My input is not on how age 65 effects me... my input is how our apathy effects all of us...

 

[Flopgut]

That might be true.... how is being politically active a problem?

Not a problem. Let's get equally outside the box as they did as well.



So that is a reason to not to? I believe a larger consensus might have provided a different methodology. When I was a status rep I asked the membership what they wanted. I got zero reply. I bit insulted I was, so I did what ever the hell I wanted....all with apathy's blessing....

Right!! Different methodology: Same result!! This is what Prater meant to do, change the age no matter what.



Does it matter? My input is not on how age 65 effects me... my input is how our apathy effects all of us...

If it takes making a list to remind us what happened then so be it!! Is there any doubt that if this seniority loss was that of Prater's generation there would be a list?! We've got a scab list at CAL that they've made available to every new pilot for 25 years. Didn't matter if you were old Braniff, got hired and then thought better of it and quit, striker who came back too early, or if you were 83 super scab who answered Lorenzo's call, no quarter has been given by Prater's generation.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The difference between a scab and someone at APAAD is the political process. the APAAD guys played by the rules and won.

That is like calling the Red Soxs scabs b/c they won the WS.

 

[PCL_128]

That is like calling the Red Soxs scabs b/c they won the WS.

No, it would be like the Red Sox, trailing near the end of the 9th inning, going to Bud Selig and handing him $5 million to declare that baseball no longer has 9 innings, it actually has 12!!!

 

[Flopgut]

The difference between a scab and someone at APAAD is the political process. the APAAD guys played by the rules and won.

That is like calling the Red Soxs scabs b/c they won the WS.

This should not be a list for JS retaliation or anything hostile. (We don't need to ALL the way down to Prater's level) This should be done for accounting and fiscal collective bargaining reckoning.

 

[Mamma]

Rez,
I like the way you are approaching this. This is all our fault. We had a lot of time to put a stop to this or at least slow it down but nothing was done. Prater came out and said he was going to do this. APAAD said they were going to do this. This was no surprise. I think most folks were counting on congress not approving this again as they and the courts have done over the last several decades. 60,000 members in ALPA. If we had a couple thousand writing the papers, calling their senators and pressuring their MECs and Prater there might have been a different outcome. I completely disagree with the age 65 rule on safety and selfish professional reasons but I did not do jack squat to ensure it did not happen. There was the highly organized APAAD with one mission in life and on the opposing side there was.....nothing but silence.

Jack Handy moment: I am an apathetic loser who contributed to a significant decline in my net worth...but gall darnit, I still like me.

 

[C-21Pilot]

From the APAAD.org website:

The APAAD Leadership with Sen John Breaux (third from left)
Paul Emens, SWA, Denny Holman, UAL, Sen Breaux, Mike Ballard, UAL, Gary Cottingham, USA, and Stan Sutterfield, SWA, Chairman, APAAD. Missing in the photo is Paul Turner, USA.

 

[jke406]

From the APAAD.org website:

The APAAD Leadership with Sen John Breaux (third from left)
Paul Emens, SWA, Denny Holman, UAL, Sen Breaux, Mike Ballard, UAL, Gary Cottingham, USA, and Stan Sutterfield, SWA, Chairman, APAAD. Missing in the photo is Paul Turner, USA.

Best avatar without breasts....ever.

break/break...Rez, STFU. Are you even a pilot?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Best avatar without breasts....ever.

break/break...Rez, STFU. Are you even a pilot?

Nope...just some that understands the system, takes my responsibilities seriously and doesn't cry like a crack hoe when the gov't dole doesn't provide like I think it should...

What are you?

 

[zonker]

Nope...just some that understands the system, takes my responsibilities seriously and doesn't cry like a crack hoe when the gov't dole doesn't provide like I think it should...

What are you?

Wait.

You're not a pilot? You're on here 24 hours a day extolling the virtues of ALPA and you're not even a fricking pilot?

 

[PCL_128]

Of course he's a pilot.

 

[eaglefly]

Of course he's a pilot.

He just doesn't have a life...........

 

[Sluggo_63]

Rez,
I like the way you are approaching this. This is all our fault...

No we didn't. We were too busy flying full months and taking care of families and kids. We weren't 58 years old, with no kids, and unlimited sick time to fly to Capital Hill every week. We had work to do.

 

[Mamma]

No we didn't. We were too busy flying full months and taking care of families and kids. We weren't 58 years old, with no kids, and unlimited sick time to fly to Capital Hill every week. We had work to do.

I'm in the same predicament you are too! Its just that the senior citizens got organized and spent years getting this together. We countered with nothing. Our elected officials did nothing because we as a group demanded nothing of them. I think it was even compounded further with Prater being disingenuous. But the fact remains that Rez is just rubbing our noses in it because Open Skies and Foreign pilot stuff is coming down the pipeline and we sure as hell better get it together better than we did this time.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm in the same predicament you are too! Its just that the senior citizens got organized and spent years getting this together. We countered with nothing. Our elected officials did nothing because we as a group demanded nothing of them. I think it was even compounded further with Prater being disingenuous. But the fact remains that Rez is just rubbing our noses in it because Open Skies and Foreign pilot stuff is coming down the pipeline and we sure as hell better get it together better than we did this time.

My delivery is a bit stand off-ish..... My intent is to motivate and get pilots to protect ther careers and particapte in the process. That is win win for all of us...

I guess I am not ready to beg and plead that a professional pilot take responsibility for his/her own career.

Nonetheless, all of our success is dependant on all of us pulling togther... not fighting, not sueing the Association.... no one gives a Sh#t about us... not even us....

 

[BeCareful!]

My delivery is a bit stand off-ish..... My intent is to motivate and get pilots to protect ther careers and particapte in the process. That is win win for all of us...

I guess I am not ready to beg and plead that a professional pilot take responsibility for his/her own career.

Nonetheless, all of our success is dependant on all of us pulling togther... not fighting, not sueing the Association.... no one gives a Sh#t about us... not even us....

Your delivery, Rez, makes you look like an ass to most of the readers here. You succeed in motivating pilots, but not the direction you think: You've motivated many to understand that ALPA is NOT representing its members. I shouldn't have to lobby Washington to protect myself from my fellow "brothers." I shouldn't have to lobby to keep the minority from riding high for five years on the backs of those hired after them. That's not what a union is supposed to be about.

And, there is the crux: as a union, ALPA has failed miserably, and none of your efforts to place the blame on the dues-paying members change this fact. In your world, ALPA would need three gymnasiums to hold an LEC meeting, because every freekin' line pilot would be there. Airlines would suspend ops for the day. Get real....

Our success depends on us not fighting? Really? Your "delivery," as you call it, indicates you like a good fight. Perhaps you should heed the advice I see you get so often (STFU), and take a few days to ponder what your true motivations are. Perhaps you'd be more successful with a different style of "delivery."

BC


P.S. I've often thought you were a management troll. You have the effect of dividing pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

Your delivery, Rez, makes you look like an ass to most of the readers here.

That's simply because he's not telling you what you want to hear. You'd like him to pat you on the back and tell you that "it's ok that you're not involved in your career, we'll take care of everything for you if you just tell us what to do." Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The membership needs to get off their collective ass and take ownership of their careers and their union. The lack of interest on the part of the membership is appalling.

 

[BigMeat]

Pilots love to sit back and let somone else handle it. I may not be the biggest fan of ALPA right now but its still an organized labor union which needs to be backed. If we dont like the organization lets change it. I think that in the last several years ALPA has not flexed its muscle enough nor do I think that it represents the pilot group in the way it should. Ex. TSA issues, forgoing the majority who is anti-65, retirements, reasonable rest requirements, bringing more light to bad management etc. All these things could have been done with a little more passion. It is however our fault for not taking matters into our own hands. Like taking the time to figure out who you elect. Volunteering even a little bit of time to our unions. APA is a great organization. What are they doing different? We should find out and do the same. Its time to get a little more militant, informed and involved. ALPA, SWAPA, APA, NPA, etc. All of us.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Your delivery, Rez, makes you look like an ass to most of the readers here. You succeed in motivating pilots, but not the direction you think: You've motivated many to understand that ALPA is NOT representing its members.

ok...what is the solution?

I shouldn't have to lobby Washington to protect myself from my fellow "brothers." I shouldn't have to lobby to keep the minority from riding high for five years on the backs of those hired after them. That's not what a union is supposed to be about.

No its called democracy and political effectiveness...

As an American should I NOT have to lobby my fellow Americans to get the gay marriage, gun control, abortion laws that I want??? Why should I have to fight my fellow Americans...

DO you get it?????

And, there is the crux: as a union, ALPA has failed miserably, and none of your efforts to place the blame on the dues-paying members change this fact.

America is a union.

See you just don't want to think about it. You want maintenence free, all for me, service from ALPA.

What responsibilities does an ALPA member have? Direct answer requested!!

In your world, ALPA would need three gymnasiums to hold an LEC meeting, because every freekin' line pilot would be there. Airlines would suspend ops for the day. Get real....

In my world..I'd settle for 10% of an LEC. Right now its less than 5%. And the membership is quite unhappy. A connection?

I'll ask again.. what responsibilites does an ALPA member have? A member of a democracy...

Our success depends on us not fighting? Really? Your "delivery," as you call it, indicates you like a good fight. Perhaps you should heed the advice I see you get so often (STFU), and take a few days to ponder what your true motivations are. Perhaps you'd be more successful with a different style of "delivery."

Stay focued on your career... are you happy with it?

BC


P.S. I've often thought you were a management troll. You have the effect of dividing pilots.

Why because I suggest you take responsbility and self govern your career? Does that make you angry? Does that bother you that I suggest that you actually do that?

 

[PurpleInMEM]

My delivery is a bit stand off-ish..... My intent is to motivate and get pilots to protect ther careers and particapte in the process. That is win win for all of us...

I guess I am not ready to beg and plead that a professional pilot take responsibility for his/her own career.

Nonetheless, all of our success is dependant on all of us pulling togther... not fighting, not sueing the Association.... no one gives a Sh#t about us... not even us....

Careers? Process?

Come on Rez, it's a freaking job...and not a very good one.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Your delivery, Rez, makes you look like an ass to most of the readers here.

P.S. I've often thought you were a management troll. You have the effect of dividing pilots.

Glad to see you escaped that confining "Summer's Eve" box.

Make a left at the end of the feminine products aisle. The Bile Helper is on the top shelf...a place I doubt you've ever been.

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... you keep harping on members "taking an active role in their career."

I gotta ask... at what point do you point the finger at the leadership? Is it at 50% participation? Is it at 80% participation? Is it at 20% participation?

Let me ask you this... if a pilot group is having an election, and only 30% of the pilot group votes, do we scrub their votes and have committee members vote in the new status reps and disregard those who voted simply because they're not the "real" majority?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez... you keep harping on members "taking an active role in their career."

Question: What responsibilities do ALPA members have?

I gotta ask... at what point do you point the finger at the leadership? Is it at 50% participation? Is it at 80% participation? Is it at 20% participation?

How can the membership point the finger at the leadership if they don't particapte.

Look man.... you can sport b!tch all you want.. Call up your elected reps and verbally or even via email tell them what is FUBAR.... but you also have to offer a solution. Anyone can identify problems.... that is mindless!! but can you offer solutions... I mean, real, pragmatic, workable solutions!!

The next problem is one pilot emails his elected rep and says we need to fix this and another pilot emails his rep and says the opposite... now what?

Let me ask you this... if a pilot group is having an election, and only 30% of the pilot group votes, do we scrub their votes and have committee members vote in the new status reps and disregard those who voted simply because they're not the "real" majority?

No. but does that mean we accept low voter turn out?

Again... unions, like our own gov't, are democratic republics. What responsibilities does each member have?

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez, you really must be an ALPA rep because you don't answer any questions - you're off on a tangent.

The question is... AT WHAT POINT DO YOU START HOLDING THE ALPA BOZOS RESPONSIBLE?

Better yet, AT WHAT POINT DOES ALPA BEGIN TO LISTEN TO ITS MEMBERSHIP? 10%, 20%, 80%, 100% only participation? Please do tell...

 

[Occam's Razor]

The question is... AT WHAT POINT DO YOU START HOLDING THE ALPA BOZOS RESPONSIBLE?

Pointed, but legitimate question.

The simple answer: ALWAYS!

The system is not designed to let a visceral pilot group burn the house down by recalling reps willy-nilly...but it actuality, that's one of the ways we make them accountable.

Let me give you an example: The F/O rep of Council 1 is one of those who elected pilots at the National level who supported issues his constituents clearly don't support. He also tends to vote contrary to the wishes of his council. He's alienated his fellow LEC reps, and just doesn't play well with others.

But he appeals to those who are angry. Mind you, some of the things they're angry about are things he helped cause...but that connection gets blurry, especially when you're angry!

He could find himself subject to a recall soon, but the odds of it being successful are slim because the process was designed to be difficult.

It should be difficult!

You start holding them accountable by participating. You call your buddies, attend meetings, and confront your reps (the ones accountable!) with their action/inaction on important issues.

You stay within the rules, and don't act with emotion. A calm, articulate pilot...stating facts and demanding answers...has more influence than you think.

Better yet, AT WHAT POINT DOES ALPA BEGIN TO LISTEN TO ITS MEMBERSHIP? 10%, 20%, 80%, 100% only participation? Please do tell...

Depends on the issue. If you're in contract negotiations or strike prep (times that require undisturbed solidarity), single voices seem to have more resonance.

At times like these (recoil and recovery) it will be those with energy that have the most influence.

Consider the paradox of your concern: You believe a small minority are leading the union in the wrong direction...and you want to know how a small minority ("10%, 20%, etc...") can take it back.

How'd they get there to lead?

(Hint: They participated when others didn't...and they didn't quit when it seemed "too hard".)