Well, 5 more years in the right seat.

[Jurassic Jet]

I don't see any hope that Bush will veto this.

Thank you very much ALPO and SWAPA.uke:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5374205.html

Senate extends commercial pilot retirement age from 60 to 65

By MARY CLARE JALONICK
Associated Press



WASHINGTON — The Senate voted late Wednesday to extend the retirement age for commercial pilots to 65, sending the measure to the president's desk.
The bill would change a 1960 Federal Aviation Administration regulation forcing pilots to leave the cockpit at age 60. The House passed the legislation unanimously Tuesday.

The legislation would put the U.S. retirement age in line with international standards. The International Civil Aviation Organization adopted an age 65 retirement age in November 2006.

The retirement age provision was originally included in a larger bill to reauthorize FAA programs that the House passed in September. But with the FAA bill unlikely to see action in the Senate this year, members of the House agreed to move the retirement bill separately in hopes of winning quick Senate approval.

The bill would require pilots who reach age 60 to have a medical certificate renewed every six months, to continue to participate in FAA pilot training and qualification programs and to be administered a line check every six months.

Following international practices, flights out of U.S. airports for foreign destinations would have to have at least one pilot under age 60.

The legislation is not retroactive, and
airlines would not be required to hire back pilots who retire before the measure goes into effect.

 

[avbug]

Hopefully it will pass. It's about time.

 

[Bjammin]

Best time for this to happen with most guys off of furlough and the airlines hiring. Imagine if this was passed 3 years ago.

 

[Jurassic Jet]

Hopefully it will pass. It's about time.

So when you signed up for this gig, I'm sure you were thinking that they will surely extend the retirement age for you didn't you? That's why it was "about time".

You one of those guys with 3 houses, a couple boats, and a few ex-wives???

 

[Way2Broke]

Just because it gets passed doesn't mean it will be in the books any time soon. Congress doesn't make rules for the FAA. This only means that if the FAA wants to make it 65 it can happen, and we all know how fast the FAA moves.

 

[belchfire]

This only means that if the FAA wants to make it 65 it can happen, and we all know how fast the FAA moves.

Global warming will be over by then and we'll be in the coming Ice Age!

Jurrasic Jet must be on of those guys working for someone that still has defined benifits on retirement...if you want to go at 60 my man, I'm sure you could come up with a medical reason! I personally don't want to go to the bench any sooner than nessesary-I like what I do and it's pretty silly for an arbitrary rule that wasn't around till 1960 to make me do that. Perhaps you might look for another line of work if you're so anxious to get out!

 

[Jurassic Jet]

Global warming will be over by then and we'll be in the coming Ice Age!

Jurrasic Jet must be on of those guys working for someone that still has defined benifits on retirement...if you want to go at 60 my man, I'm sure you could come up with a medical reason! I personally don't want to go to the bench any sooner than nessesary-I like what I do and it's pretty silly for an arbitrary rule that wasn't around till 1960 to make me do that. Perhaps you might look for another line of work if you're so anxious to get out!

You are right. We still have (for the moment) an excellent defined benefit plan. I'm not anxious to get out. I'm a whopping 37 years old, and I too like what I do.

I'm just a little tired of sitting in the right seat. Been through one bankrupt/liquidated airline before coming here. Been in the right seat 9 years now with absolutely NO forward progression other than retirements. Now that is going to come to an end for 5 years.

Have you ever seen any of these cargo geezers that are close to 60? They look and act like 90. They're not all that way, but most of them. But the whores who fly every single day of the month look like walking death.

I'm out at 55 regardless. I want to enjoy retirement.

 

[Andy Neill]

Just because it gets passed doesn't mean it will be in the books any time soon. Congress doesn't make rules for the FAA. This only means that if the FAA wants to make it 65 it can happen, and we all know how fast the FAA moves.

Not according to the text of the legislation. It doesn't say the FAA will study the change. It says the restricting regs are rescinded...period. [See Section 2(d) below]

For those airlines that have an age restriction in the contract, they can stay in place or they can negotiate a restriction in future contracts if they don't. [See Section 2(f) below] Do any of you work with such a contractural restriction?


HR 4343 EH
110th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 4343
AN ACT
To amend title 49, United States Code, to modify age standards for pilots engaged in commercial aviation operations.

• Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

• This Act may be cited as the `Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act'.

SEC. 2. AGE STANDARDS FOR PILOTS.

• (a) In General- Chapter 447 of title 49, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`Sec. 44729. Age standards for pilots

• `(a) In General- Subject to the limitation in subsection (c), a pilot may serve in multicrew covered operations until attaining 65 years of age.

• `(b) Covered Operations Defined- In this section, the term `covered operations' means operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

• `(c) Limitation for International Flights-

• • `(1) APPLICABILITY OF ICAO STANDARD- A pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as pilot-in-command in covered operations between the United States and another country only if there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.

• • `(2) SUNSET OF LIMITATION- Paragraph (1) shall cease to be effective on such date as the Convention on International Civil Aviation provides that a pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as pilot-in-command in international commercial operations without regard to whether there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not attained age 60.

• `(d) Sunset of Age 60 Retirement Rule- On and after the date of enactment of this section, section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, shall cease to be effective.

• `(e) Applicability-

• • `(1) NONRETROACTIVITY- No person who has attained 60 years of age before the date of enactment of this section may serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless--

• • • `(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member; or

• • • `(B) such person is newly hired by an air carrier as a pilot on or after such date of enactment without credit for prior seniority or prior longevity for benefits or other terms related to length of service prior to the date of rehire under any labor agreement or employment policies of the air carrier.

• • `(2) PROTECTION FOR COMPLIANCE- An action taken in conformance with this section, taken in conformance with a regulation issued to carry out this section, or taken prior to the date of enactment of this section in conformance with section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (as in effect before such date of enactment), may not serve as a basis for liability or relief in a proceeding, brought under any employment law or regulation, before any court or agency of the United States or of any State or locality.

• `(f) Amendments to Labor Agreements and Benefit Plans- Any amendment to a labor agreement or benefit plan of an air carrier that is required to conform with the requirements of this section or a regulation issued to carry out this section, and is applicable to pilots represented for collective bargaining, shall be made by agreement of the air carrier and the designated bargaining representative of the pilots of the air carrier.

• `(g) Medical Standards and Records-

• • `(1) MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS- Except as provided by paragraph (2), a person serving as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations shall not be subject to different medical standards, or different, greater, or more frequent medical examinations, on account of age unless the Secretary determines (based on data received or studies published after the date of enactment of this section) that different medical standards, or different, greater, or more frequent medical examinations, are needed to ensure an adequate level of safety in flight.

• • `(2) DURATION OF FIRST-CLASS MEDICAL CERTIFICATE- No person who has attained 60 years of age may serve as a pilot of an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless the person has a first-class medical certificate. Such a certificate shall expire on the last day of the 6-month period following the date of examination shown on the certificate.

• `(h) Safety-

• • `(1) TRAINING- Each air carrier engaged in covered operations shall continue to use pilot training and qualification programs approved by the Federal Aviation Administration, with specific emphasis on initial and recurrent training and qualification of pilots who have attained 60 years of age, to ensure continued acceptable levels of pilot skill and judgment.

• • `(2) LINE EVALUATIONS- Not later than 6 months after the date of enactment of this section, and every 6 months thereafter, an air carrier engaged in covered operations shall evaluate the performance of each pilot of the air carrier who has attained 60 years of age through a line check of such pilot. Notwithstanding the preceding sentence, an air carrier shall not be required to conduct for a 6-month period a line check under this paragraph of a pilot serving as second-in-command if the pilot has undergone a regularly scheduled simulator evaluation during that period.

• • `(3) GAO REPORT- Not later than 24 months after the date of enactment of this section, the Comptroller General shall submit to the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate a report concerning the effect, if any, on aviation safety of the modification to pilot age standards made by subsection (a).'.

• (b) Clerical Amendment- The analysis for chapter 447 of title 49, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

• • `44729. Age standards for pilots.'.

 

[DC8 Express]

So typical of congress. One size fits all. Yes SWAPA did us no favors. Flying from San Diego to Phoenix on a nice sunny Tuesday afternoon may be ok for a 65 year old.

Thanks to all the members of the Allied Pilots Assn. for there efforts in preserving the age 60 retirement. Here is a group that sees it all on any given day; world wide operations, back of clock operations, non radar 3rd world flying, mulitple time zone crossing, mountainous, language barriers etc etc etc. buts lets not take American Airlines pilot's years of experience into account.

thanks congress for nothing. Once again the cargo carriers get the crap end of the stick. Who knows though, this may be a way to get rid of supp regs.

 

[OrionFE]

You are right. We still have (for the moment) an excellent defined benefit plan. I'm not anxious to get out. I'm a whopping 37 years old, and I too like what I do.

I'm just a little tired of sitting in the right seat. Been through one bankrupt/liquidated airline before coming here. Been in the right seat 9 years now with absolutely NO forward progression other than retirements. Now that is going to come to an end for 5 years.

Have you ever seen any of these cargo geezers that are close to 60? They look and act like 90. They're not all that way, but most of them. But the whores who fly every single day of the month look like walking death.

I'm out at 55 regardless. I want to enjoy retirement.

Maybe you should fly cargo, so you can get that big ego of yours in the airplane!

 

[Quimby]

Maybe you should fly cargo

, so you can get that big ego of yours in the airplane!

umm, I think he does.

 

[avbug]

You one of those guys with 3 houses, a couple boats, and a few ex-wives???

Am I supposed to feel sympathy or anger, or ambivilance there? Quite frankly, I don't own a house, don't own a boat, and do have an ex-wife, whom I don't own either. I'm someone who's been professionally flying since I was in High School, and who will continue flying anything and everything I can as long as he can.

If you don't like it, tough.

I'm just a little tired of sitting in the right seat. Been through one bankrupt/liquidated airline before coming here. Been in the right seat 9 years now with absolutely NO forward progression other than retirements. Now that is going to come to an end for 5 years.

Sounds like you need to find a better job. You were probably all kinds of proud of yourself when you got that job. You weren't one of those got-my-first-jet-job-props-are-for-boats kids, were you? Not that it matters. Now you have the opportunity to work longer, earn longer, and make up for the social security you'll pay for but never get. Be happy.

Once again the cargo carriers get the crap end of the stick.

Join a carrier that upgrades you faster and quit whining. Problem solved.

I'm out at 55 regardless. I want to enjoy retirement.

See? Your problem is solved already.

Have you ever seen any of these cargo geezers that are close to 60? They look and act like 90. They're not all that way, but most of them.

Hmmm. Sounds like you're describing...YOU!

But the whores who fly every single day of the month look like walking death.

You're still young enough to learn to mind your own business. Because a man is willing to work and takes the opportunity as he sees fit, you have to insult him? Is it really any of your business?

Simmer your punk ass down, open your history books and learn that the age 65 limit is the way it always was. The age 60 thing has merely been an unfortunate mistake that's being corrected.

 

[HoursHore]

This just goes down as one more thing the baby boomers screwed up. A mere shadow of their parents.

 

[dutch747]

I have to agree with AVbug, although the age 60 thing adversely effects my opportunity for upgrade, I would rather the "choice" of flying to age 65 or take early retirement.

 

[sat74]

How is AGE 60 considered age discrimination and AGE 65 NOT???

In 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, whats to these guys will push for AGE 70??

Seems like Australia is the only place with no age limit (maybe I am wrong).

 

[FreightBumper]

Maybe you should fly cargo, so you can get that big ego of yours in the airplane!

He does fly cargo if I'm not mistaken. But as my wife points out, I'm mistaken quite often.

 

[Way2Broke]

Belch,

I actually support age 65, and my reasoning is pretty simple. Its just plain wrong to force someone into retirement before social security can be drawn. Heck, you can fly as long as you want as long as you truly can hold the medical required for the job. 50 or 65, who cares! The question is are you medically fit to fly? If you are have fun and make a buck.

Global warming will be over by then and we'll be in the coming Ice Age!

Jurrasic Jet must be on of those guys working for someone that still has defined benifits on retirement...if you want to go at 60 my man, I'm sure you could come up with a medical reason! I personally don't want to go to the bench any sooner than nessesary-I like what I do and it's pretty silly for an arbitrary rule that wasn't around till 1960 to make me do that. Perhaps you might look for another line of work if you're so anxious to get out!

 

[B737 Guy]

Belch,

I actually support age 65, and my reasoning is pretty simple.

Most are, and they're usually greed!

Its just plain wrong to force someone into retirement before social security can be drawn. Heck, you can fly as long as you want as long as you truly can hold the medical required for the job.

Piss poor planning has nothing to do with it either eh?
The biggest supporters of age 65 are the "I've got mine crowd!"

50 or 65, who cares! The question is are you medically fit to fly? If you are have fun and make a buck.

Just curious who you fly for?
Some of the older captains I've flown with in my career, should have retired at age 55! I see the ones getting closer to 60 being worse. That being said, it doesn't apply to ALL pilots, just some!
SO the question begs, where do you draw the line? IF the FAA felt that 65 was ok, then why put the caveat in there that "no 2 pilots in the cockpit can be over 60."
Just some observations/opinions from a "non supporter" of age 65

 

[countbat]

All these guys against 65 rule, when their time will come AND IT WILL COME SOONER THEN THEY THINK, will be the first ones to scream and hold their seats and want to work 'till droping dead. It is just human hypocrisy and individualism.
Majority of americans and pilots are part of it can not afford to retire our days. Life has too many ups and downs, too screwed.
However forced stop flying at 60, medicare at 62, and social security benefits at 65 shouldn't sound right to anybody. Majority of pilots stay and will stay in Social Security as only source of income at that age if they can not find a part 91 job or not flipping burgers at McDonald. Except the ones lucky enough to get a job with majors, but I have seen former majors screwing thei employees. Just to name few: Eastern, PanAm etc. One never knows. Tomorrow can be AA or UAL or any other.

 

[Way2Broke]

First of all I am closer to 30 than 60, so this is hardly greedy.

The most important and hardest to enforce part of my stand point is protecting the integrity of the certification of pilot medicals. Of course there are pilots not medically fit for flight that have a medical examiner that is just kinda passing them along. Making laws is easy, enforcing them is difficult.

I know over 60 pilots that still have all their brain function and some under 60 that never had it the first place.

My company has a 121 and a 135 side of the house. I am on the 135 side of the house and fly with pilots that are in their 60s all the time. Previously pilots have had to retire from the 121 side of the house at age 60, but have been allowed to come back to the 135 side as a captain until 65. At which point they can still stick around as a F.O. I think? I doubt many opt to take the move back to the right seat though. Instead they retire.

I wonder once this passes if the over 60 pilots will be allowed to bid back to the DC-9 (121 side)? I know a handful of them that would love that opportunity.

My long term career goals do not include part 121 airlines so this has little affect on me. As long as I still like flying and I am medically fit to fly I will be flying, but I hope not to have to work until 60 or 65. By then I hope to be taking it easy in a "little banger" flying for fun, when I want to and to where I want to.... not what and where my company tells me to go. Now that is the dream!

Most are, and they're usually greed!


Piss poor planning has nothing to do with it either eh?
The biggest supporters of age 65 are the "I've got mine crowd!"


Just curious who you fly for?
Some of the older captains I've flown with in my career, should have retired at age 55! I see the ones getting closer to 60 being worse. That being said, it doesn't apply to ALL pilots, just some!
SO the question begs, where do you draw the line? IF the FAA felt that 65 was ok, then why put the caveat in there that "no 2 pilots in the cockpit can be over 60."
Just some observations/opinions from a "non supporter" of age 65