Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[dojetdriver]

Yup, I used to do it all the time in an XR. My pairing on day four would be YYZ-IAH, IAH-YYZ, YYZ-CLE. On those two legs to/from YYZ, we found "studying" was the best method to combat boredom. One time we were going from YYZ-IAH and had to divert to Tyler, TX for fuel after our routing got fooled with due to weather. Definetely not a regional airline route.

CM

Or better yet, YYZ-IAH-GDL. Yep, we are just regional airline pilots, flying small hops. Hitting 3 countries in one day.

 

[regionaltard]

A Regional Pilots association?

It'd be fun to watch!

If you think the demographics and priorities of mainline pilots are problematic...you'd see a real conflict between the "moving's" and "staying's" at the regional level.

If decent representation was able to significantly reduce the a$$rape coefficient in the equation I think that the volatility you've mentioned would be quite a bit lower. As long as there's an element of desperation involved in escaping the underclass management will continue to cash in.

 

[NuGuy]

A Regional Pilots association?

It'd be fun to watch!

If you think the demographics and priorities of mainline pilots are problematic...you'd see a real conflict between the "moving's" and "staying's" at the regional level.

Heyas Occam,

I got to watch that at two different places.

The irony was that the "Staying's" had the right idea. It was my fellow "leavings" who were more than willing to sell out.

Youth is wasted on the young....

Nu

 

[lookin4better]

Well, there are a couple problems with that...

First off, 110 seats or less? That is nationwide mainline narrowbody feed! That is not "regional" flying! That is "outsourced" flying and nothing else. CRJs flying 3-4 hour flights between major cities and major hubs is not regional by any sense of the word.

Secondly, it is in EVERYONE's best interest for the regionals to not survive, much less expand. We need these passengers flying on mainline birds.

One of the smartest things I have heard on FI....period

 

[regionaltard]

One of the smartest things I have heard on FI....period

Well, except for the fact that aircraft gauge will always be driven by economics rather than the wishes of pilots. Unless of course you're willing to acknowledge that the economics of the regional industry are in large part a construct of the wishes of pilots. The we're callin' the shots, u betcha.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The irony was that the "Staying's" had the right idea. It was my fellow "leavings" who were more than willing to sell out.

Youth is wasted on the young....

I agree. I don't have a problem with an "RAPA" per se. If the membership is willing to accept the trade-offs in terms of services available...in exchange for a more narrowly-focused set of Association objectives: Good for them!

The built-in problem is the same that ALPA has right now: Long-term priorities differ within the membership. Abandoning ALPA in the belief that everyone will magically share common goals under a new organization is foolish.

 

[Gandalf]

Quote: Originally Posted by DX Rick
No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.

Why? Because you said so? Because that's the way it was done in the past, so we should always do it that way? The airlines wouldn't be doing it this way if there wasn't money to be made.

Hoover, have you flown lately? How about out of the nations top airports? Been delayed? Hmmmm.....

Well, the reason for the massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutely ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the rj's. Plain and Simple.

Do I like flying them? Of course. Am I glad to have a job? You bet.

Sure, there might be money in it for the airlines in doing it this way. But at whose expense?

Mainline pilot salary is down. Regional pilot salaries are a joke - especially now that we ARE flying "mainline" routes.

In the past, regional airlines were looked at by most as a stepping stone to the majors. They still are. However, the numbers of pilots that are staying with their respective companies for a "career" at the regional level has increased. Why not - the instability of the industry has led to that.

However, if a regional airline is to be a place to stay and have a decent career - then the pay and retirement benefits should be competitive to the type of flying and routes flown by other carriers, no matter the type of aircraft flown.

By staying with a regional airline for your career, you are saying that aircraft size doesn't matter (which is Fine-no flame please!), then wouldn't it stand to reason that you would want to maximize your pay and benefits for that career?

There are of course QOL issues that may be better at a regional depending on your situation (money isn't everything), however QOL stuff varies at every company, in fact at every industry. Everyone has a different idea on what QOL things are most important to them.

However, we all generally agree on the amount that "we" should receive for our particular job.....An engineer at Apple and one at Microsoft may have different compensation and benefits, but OVERALL it will not be so different. And it certainly will not be below what is generally agreed on industry wide. Otherwise, for most of us QOL stuff will lose out to compensation.

Would I love to fly an 737? Sure! But NOT AT AN REGIONAL AIRLINE SALARY. That is what this industry is moving towards.

In the past when the regionals were flying mostly t-props and the route segments were short, it was acceptable to pay a pilot lower because they REALLY were "regional". The airlines COULD NOT bring in a 737 to podunk regional airport. But, that has all changed. The places where the airline could not bring in the 73, they can bring in an rj, or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.....

And while "we" would be remiss in not assisting the companies try to make a profit, there is a point where it has to stop.

You graduate from law school and get an entry level job at a law firm. You expect to get paid a certain salary. After 10 years of experience and after being your firms top lawyer(ie. Captain), you move. You go to a bigger, better firm expecting a salary that reflects your overall experience as a lawyer. Now, at the new firm you may not be handling the top cases until you get experience with that company(ie. First officer).......However, you would NOT expect to get paid what you got when you had just graduated law school.

Because of the way this industry pays its pilots - Having more rjs, rj operators, and rj pilots in the overall system LOWERS THE PAY of everyone. If we were paid based on overall experience then it wouldn't matter as much.

The airlines are posting great load factor numbers. However, the use of rjs has increased. The number of total aircraft in the system has greatly increased. But most importantly those aircraft are able to operate at the nations busiest airports, not mostly at podunk regional as in the past. This has created a huge strain on the system.

So, while some of you think that flying an rj sure does beat that C-172 flying, and it does........

Having an increasing nationwide rj fleet flying longer and longer routes does nothing for this industry......Except expand the egos of some........

 

[Caspian27]

Gandalf,

Great post. Couldn't have said it better.

C27

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Quote: Originally Posted by DX Rick
No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.



Hoover, have you flown lately? How about out of the nations top airports? Been delayed? Hmmmm.....

"Well, the reason for the massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutely ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the rj's. Plain and Simple."

Do I like flying them? Of course. Am I glad to have a job? You bet.

Sure, there might be money in it for the airlines in doing it this way. But at whose expense?

Mainline pilot salary is down. Regional pilot salaries are a joke - especially now that we ARE flying "mainline" routes.

In the past, regional airlines were looked at by most as a stepping stone to the majors. They still are. However, the numbers of pilots that are staying with their respective companies for a "career" at the regional level has increased. Why not - the instability of the industry has led to that.

However, if a regional airline is to be a place to stay and have a decent career - then the pay and retirement benefits should be competitive to the type of flying and routes flown by other carriers, no matter the type of aircraft flown.

By staying with a regional airline for your career, you are saying that aircraft size doesn't matter (which is Fine-no flame please!), then wouldn't it stand to reason that you would want to maximize your pay and benefits for that career?

There are of course QOL issues that may be better at a regional depending on your situation (money isn't everything), however QOL stuff varies at every company, in fact at every industry. Everyone has a different idea on what QOL things are most important to them.

However, we all generally agree on the amount that "we" should receive for our particular job.....An engineer at Apple and one at Microsoft may have different compensation and benefits, but OVERALL it will not be so different. And it certainly will not be below what is generally agreed on industry wide. Otherwise, for most of us QOL stuff will lose out to compensation.

Would I love to fly an 737? Sure! But NOT AT AN REGIONAL AIRLINE SALARY. That is what this industry is moving towards.

In the past when the regionals were flying mostly t-props and the route segments were short, it was acceptable to pay a pilot lower because they REALLY were "regional". The airlines COULD NOT bring in a 737 to podunk regional airport. But, that has all changed. The places where the airline could not bring in the 73, they can bring in an rj, or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.....

And while "we" would be remiss in not assisting the companies try to make a profit, there is a point where it has to stop.

You graduate from law school and get an entry level job at a law firm. You expect to get paid a certain salary. After 10 years of experience and after being your firms top lawyer(ie. Captain), you move. You go to a bigger, better firm expecting a salary that reflects your overall experience as a lawyer. Now, at the new firm you may not be handling the top cases until you get experience with that company(ie. First officer).......However, you would NOT expect to get paid what you got when you had just graduated law school.

Because of the way this industry pays its pilots - Having more rjs, rj operators, and rj pilots in the overall system LOWERS THE PAY of everyone. If we were paid based on overall experience then it wouldn't matter as much.

The airlines are posting great load factor numbers. However, the use of rjs has increased. The number of total aircraft in the system has greatly increased. But most importantly those aircraft are able to operate at the nations busiest airports, not mostly at podunk regional as in the past. This has created a huge strain on the system.

So, while some of you think that flying an rj sure does beat that C-172 flying, and it does........

Having an increasing nationwide rj fleet flying longer and longer routes does nothing for this industry......Except expand the egos of some........

Uhm, yeah...the "massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutly ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the RJ's. Plain and simple."



The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...



NOT!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

Face facts. The delays in the Northeast are largely due to overcrowding caused by too many RJs. We certainly need to fix the other issues you mention, but the delays in the busiest markets in this country could be drastically reduced if a minimum number of seats per aircraft was specified for each slot at airports like LGA and DCA.

 

[DoinTime]

The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...

NOT!!!!

Certainly the national airspace system is woefully out of date. That being said the FAA has never announced that there is a plan to fix the problem. We are currently dealing with a system that has finite capacity and airlines have exceeded that capacity.

The argument can always be made that technological improvements or staffing increases could alleviate the problem but who is going to pay for it? The airlines aren't going to pay and I'm certainly not willing to increase my taxes so airlines can reap the benefits.

If airlines want free reign over their scheduled capacity they need to step up to the plate and pay to fix the system. Until then the problems with chronic delays are their fault.

 

[Gandalf]

Hello? This is Earth Calling!

Uhm, yeah...the "massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutly ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the RJ's. Plain and simple."



The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...



NOT!!!!

So, yes there are other things contributing to the delays. But, what are you saying....That the rjs aren't MOST of the problem???? WTF???

Where do you fly? Have you even flown anywhere East of the Mississippi? WTF????

Rjs are everywhere....Simple economics.....A major can contract out its flying to a regional, serve the same routes out of the same MAJOR airports (ORD, ATL, LGA, EWR, IAD, etc.....), fly the rjs on 3:30-4:30 hour flights (in an rj - WTF!?) and have lower costs. Fuel and Labor. A regional airline crew costs a lot cheaper than a mainline crew.

Meanwhile, in order to get the number of seats between 2 city pairs from the MAJOR airports in the US., the major has to/or can - run more rj flights.

That means THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT FLYING BETWEEN ORD AND X, ATL AND X, LGA AND X, ETC. ETC. ETC.

MORE AIRCRAFT (RJS) THAT THE ATC SYSTEM CAN'T HANDLE.

Yes, the ATC system needs overhaul, however the ones contributing to the problem (THE AIRLINES) are not willing to fix the problem ($$$$$). BECAUSE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THE SHAREHOLDERS. AND BY RUNNING MULTIPLE RJS(EVEN WITH DELAYS) IT IS CHEAPER THAN FLYING MAINLINE FLIGHTS.

So, call your congressman and lobby to get more $$ for the FAA, so that it can be overhauled. Meanwhile airlines will continue to add rj capacity to the skies.

By adding more rj capacity, we drive the OVERALL salary range of the industry DOWN.

So, although fixing the ATC is a valid and important concern, the unchecked proliferation of rjs in the US airspace system is the more important problem in todays industry. Whether you fix ATC or not, the delays will NOT go away with an increasing number of a/c (rjs) in the skies.

The regional airline has changed, as a direct result of the advent of the technology of the rj. The rj has allowed the majors to serve major markets at a lower cost to THEM. Although, that is a great thing in some respects.....because of the way the airline industry structures the pay for the pilots, the rj and regional flying should have limits placed on them. Otherwise we do a disservice to ALL.

 

[Avpilot]

I seem to remember expressjet doing Toronto to Houston?..Isnt that over 4 hrs??? Yikes!!!...Pass the gin & tonic for that ride!!! Better yet just get the tow bar and smash my skull in!....

You are correct...but that's not even the longest we do. Up until CAL made the blunder of giving us so many XRs, we did IAH-BOI, IAH-PSP, IAH-BFL, EWR-OKC, etc. I think we still do some of those. IAH-BOI-IAH was the best day trip...7:53 block.

Currently we still do some LAX-Mexico (usually QRO or BJX)-IAH redeyes. Those are some long flights. I think the Delta Connection LAX-Zijuatinejo is one of the longer ones now too.

We're doing the same types of routes the DC-9 guys used to do....thank God we're not bringing home $150/hr like they were....man that would suck.

Tim

 

[Nevets]

Maybe some genius has already thought of this, but why isn't there a Union that represents the regionals?? 110 seats or less, a union that looks out for the little guys??

You could call it RAPA, Regional Airlines Pilots Association. I'm sure someone has already thought of this, so why has it not worked??

just curious??

There is a union for regionals...its called ALPA.

By the way, the problem with congestion due to lack of runway capacity. It is not the job of airlines to increase runway capacity. This is the job of the federal governemnt. Just like automobile congestion between cities required the government to build highways, increased air traffice requires the government to increase runway capacity. You don't see anyone telling the commuters and truckers not to travel in highways in places like Los Angeles, so you shouldnt see anyone telling anybody when where they should fly.

 

[DoinTime]

You don't see anyone telling the commuters and truckers not to travel in highways in places like Los Angeles, so you shouldnt see anyone telling anybody when where they should fly.

Are you saying that delays are not common on I40 westbound heading out of LA during rush hour?

The difference between airspace and the freeways is that Congress is put on high alert when some a-hole puts 2+ hours of footage on YouTube while they are trapped in the back of an RJ. Seemingly, nobody cares if I'm trapped in LA traffic for 3 hours just trying to get heck out of that wacked city.