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So where is all the movement...on the East

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abefly

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2004
Posts
302
Here’s one more “FACT” that the MEC can chew on and come up with yet another “MYTH” of its own. When this merger was announced in April 2005, the most junior East Captain cut in just above our bottom 20 captains. His Nicolau number was 2895.

Today, the most junior EastCA holding a (non-E190) CA bid owns a Nicolau seniority number of 3767. That is NOT a misprint, but it is a difference of 872 numbers (3767 minus 2895). The difference is approximately 480 CA slots back east since the merger was announced. Almost all those slots are due to attrition. And those 480 new CA slots have been created even though the East lost an additional 58 aircraft in 2005 (see the Transition Agreement, Attachment A). At 6.3 crews per aircraft, 58 aircraft equals well over 350 CA slots lost. Yet the East has upgraded over 480 CAs.

[The junior E-190 CA in PHL was almost 600 deep on the furlough list when the merger was announced (source: East’s June 2005 seniority list). In “FACT,” 16 out of the 64 E-190 CAs were on the furlough list in June 2005. Our most junior FO would slot in as an E-190 line holder, if he could only bid it. To put those numbers into prospective, the junior E-190 CA has a combined seniority number of 5144. Our most junior FO’s combined seniority list number is 4769…a difference of 375 numbers.]

Out West, when this merger was announced, the most junior West Captain had a West seniority number of 1145. Today, our most junior West Captain has a seniority number of 1045…but he’s the same pilot, but still holding down the bottom of the CA list as he has for the past 30 months. It’s been two and a half years and no movement.

In the interest of accuracy in reporting, we will say this: due to pay differential, multiple bases, commuting schedules and other lifestyle issues, a much higher percentage of East FOs by-pass upgrade at first opportunity when compared to West upgrade trends, where most West FOs do take the first upgrade available. And since the merger was announced, all available West upgrades have gone to FOs who bypassed previous upgrade opportunities.

Still, we have had only two upgrade bids and trained only 29 new CAs (others await training) out West since the merger was announced, despite attrition in excess of 120 CAs. There have been approximately 480 upgrades back East (the East number is a bit more difficult to pin down, because their pilots can upgrade with as little as six months remaining before mandatory retirement). Virtually 100% of the East upgrades have been due to attrition. The company has added hours back east after the removal of the 58 aircraft, but those added hours have been absorbed with average monthly block time adjustments.

Here’s the point: West has experienced essentially zero career advancement growth (no net upgrades and no new-hires) in the past 30 months, while the East has enjoyed close to 500 upgrades and has now recalled everyone who is willing and able to come back out of a pool of over 1700 furloughed pilots.

[Before we continue to blame our career stagnation plight on the “rascally” East MEC’s stalling tactics, out of those 480 upgrades, more than 370 occurred prior to the Nicolau Award.]

When the merger was announced, the East’s most junior CA cut in below P-2197 on the combined Nicolau list. That was and still is very close to our most junior CA. In terms of numbers you can use, if all those East upgrades came west and every West pilot who could bid an upgrade did so, P-2887 would be in the left seat on the latest bid.

Obviously that is an absurd possibility, since upgrades are “shared” (well, at least in a fully “merged world” they are shared), so here are two reasonable scenarios to consider. Today, the East’s most junior (non-E190) CA cuts in at P-2683 on the “Nic.” If West pilots upgraded at just the same relative percentage as East pilots, P-2583 could hold a CA seat in PHX or LAS. If West pilots upgraded at their traditional upgrade rate and if East pilots received a pro-rata percentage of upgrades, P-2630 could hold the left seat. The difference in seniority numbers between P-2630 and P-2228 (our most junior CA) is 334 seniority numbers!

 
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Here’s one more “FACT” that the MEC can chew on and come up with yet another “MYTH” of its own....

Today, the most junior EastCA holding a (non-E190) CA bid owns a Nicolau seniority number of 3767. That is NOT a misprint, but it is a difference of 872 numbers (3767 minus 2895). The difference is approximately 480 CA slots back east since the merger was announced. Almost all those slots are due to attrition. And those 480 new CA slots have been created even though the East lost an additional 58 aircraft in 2005 (see the Transition Agreement, Attachment A). At 6.3 crews per aircraft, 58 aircraft equals well over 350 CA slots lost. Yet the East has upgraded over 480 CAs.

(The junior E-190 CA in PHL was almost 600 deep on the furlough list when the merger was announced (source: East’s June 2005 seniority list). In “FACT,” 16 out of the 64 E-190 CAs were on the furlough list in June 2005. Our most junior FO would slot in as an E-190 line holder, if he could only bid it. To put those numbers into prospective, the junior E-190 CA has a combined seniority number of 5144. Our most junior FO’s combined seniority list number is 4769…a difference of 375 numbers.)

My post isn't to dispute your numbers, only the info in regards to the E190 junior Capt statements: The real Fact--several (not all) of those 16 Capt upgrades were not furloughed, but active US Airways pilots flying at the Embraer Division. They were dues paying, AAA Seniority List, ACTIVE pilots at US Airways. One was even the Council 41 S/T. You can't be furloughed and serve on the LEC. Nicolau doesn't address this because the information received from the AAA MEC in the arbitration regarding those 300+ active AAA pilots was skewed.

It's a done deal, but the FACT is, they were active AAA pilots.
 
My post isn't to dispute your numbers, only the info in regards to the E190 junior Capt statements: The real Fact--several (not all) of those 16 Capt upgrades were not furloughed, but active US Airways pilots flying at the Embraer Division. They were dues paying, AAA Seniority List, ACTIVE pilots at US Airways. One was even the Council 41 S/T. You can't be furloughed and serve on the LEC. Nicolau doesn't address this because the information received from the AAA MEC in the arbitration regarding those 300+ active AAA pilots was skewed.

It's a done deal, but the FACT is, they were active AAA pilots.



Ain't it funny how the Furlough story changes depending on how it benefits them??





.
 
The real Fact--several (not all) of those 16 Capt upgrades were not furloughed, but active US Airways pilots flying at the Embraer Division.


Nicolau doesn't address this because the information received from the AAA MEC in the arbitration regarding those 300+ active AAA pilots was skewed.

:rolleyes:Uh..yeah. The "Embraer Division". That's a new twist on an old fantasy I hadn't heard. Could the pilots in question transfer to a mainline airplane? No. Could the Mainline guys transfer to the elite "Embraer Division"? No. Why not? Because they were different companies. What part of "they were furloughed" is so hard for you to grasp. Nicolau isn't some off-the-street hack. Just because he didn't buy into YOUR reality doesn't mean he didn't understand the ACTUAL reality of the situation.

Embraer Division.:laugh: You guys are killing me!
 
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For all the West guys....The Embraer division was part of USAirways.

For the record, it wasn't supposed to be that way. However, when USAirways mainline management found out how much it would cost to make it that way, they balked at the idea and made it a recall job.

Facts that back it up....

The Mid-Atlantic pilots were placed on the seniority list in seniority order from the USAirways mainline seniority list.

The Mid-Atlantic pilots were given and used a USAirways mainline Flight Operations manual.

The Mid-Atlantic pilots had a pilot who was nominated and elected to hold ALPA office as part of the AAA PHL council.

The Mid-Atlantic pilots could transfer to a group two airplane....if there was a job to be had. There wasn't.

The reason that most of the MDA folks were hosed is two-fold....they had their aircraft sold out from under them, they had ALPA assign them a negotiating committee, (which shows how screwed up ALPA is), and they were given positions way out of seniority which more senior furlougheed couldn't bid on because they couldn't be bumped. The reason Nicolau did what he did is to give them their credit for service for MDA would mean he would have had to re-order the USAirways seniority list to make it proper.....something that has never been done.

BTW, I looked at the list. Which pilot has an E190 bid that was 600 numbers deep on the furlough list? He was on the furlough list, but 600 numbers is a tad deep. I think you had a list which had the APL list on it and probably 50% of them were retired or resigned by then.

A350
 
Embraer Division. I've been walking around all day saying that...and giggling.

I use to work for American Airlines' "Embraer Division". They called us, "American Eagle".

Embraer Division. The more you say it, the funnier it gets.
 
Wwhat about that small word beside the name of those at AirwaysLite on the USAirways seniority list ???


FURLOUGHED

.
 
Different certificates eagle and american. Different union. Different Pilot group.

If one thinks the USAir list should not include the guys flying the 170's, then they should have been represented by Alpa using relative seniority and that means the number one guy at MidAtlantic should have been placed with the number one pilots at America West and USair since DOH was not used. Thats what ALPA wants for future mergers. So be it. Thats why USAPA is the way to go if you believe in seniority.
Your length of service appparenty does not count in a merger anymore. Good luck the the guys suing ALPA. You have a very strong case.

Marty
 
What WE brought to the table (attrition) .

We brought in a way of survivorship so you could HAVE your attrition. We on the other hand haven't been able to enjoy ours because of it!
 
:rolleyes:Uh..yeah. The "Embraer Division". That's a new twist on an old fantasy I hadn't heard. Could the pilots in question transfer to a mainline airplane? No. Could the Mainline guys transfer to the elite "Embraer Division"? No. Why not? Because they were different companies. What part of "they were furloughed" is so hard for you to grasp. Nicolau isn't some off-the-street hack. Just because he didn't buy into YOUR reality doesn't mean he didn't understand the ACTUAL reality of the situation.

Embraer Division.:laugh: You guys are killing me!

He didn't buy in to the reality because he never saw reality. He was handed a list from the AAA NC and MEC that wasn't correct.

Significant? Yup. Making it up? Nope. Recently a judge in NYC denied ALPA National their "Motion to Dismiss" on an ammendment to an existing DFR suit against them over this very exact subject and position you are taking. The judge's comment, to paraphrase, was the motion was denied because the defendant's (ALPA) argument was weak. "Motion denied. Ammendment accepted and entered into evidence". The Embraer Division you mock in your post was US Airways, not a separate company. The pilots--active AAA ALPA dues paying members. The "furloughees" on Nicolau's list of pilots from the Embraer Division...bad info.
 
Another fact....

The E170 was put on the mainline certificate.

A350

Wasn't it because of the FAA not approving the Potomac certificate to operate as Mid-Atlantic so they just added it to mainline's?
 
Wasn't it because of the FAA not approving the Potomac certificate to operate as Mid-Atlantic so they just added it to mainline's?

I'm not sure of the chronology, but the Potomac certificate was legit. There were issues with the training integrity in late 2003. There are others who can post more accurately about that time, but Potomac/MDA was in trouble then. The LOA's negotiated originally intended MDA to be a WO subsidiary, with APL crewing the flight decks of the E170/190 fleet. Siegle moved MDA onto the Mainline Certificate. That set in motion a plethura of changes, one being that the pilots were placed on the US Airways Seniority List per the AAA CBA. When this was brought to the attention of the AAA leadership they denied it...all the way through the merger until the Embraer pilots hired outside counsel to secure their positions and contract rights. Then there was a slow, disgruntled, waffeling at times, recognition by the AAA MEC regarding those pilots. There are still little skirmishes over this issue.
 
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I can't comment on the exact reason why, I am sure it was partly $$$. But the E170's were on the AAA operating certificate. Same certificate, same union, same same.

A350
 
You brought nothing. Zanzabar, bubba, accept it.

Without us you would've been attending the next air app convention. I'd still would've rather taken our chances without you.
 
Hey Monkey you should change that quote to:

"I haven't been drinking officer. Ok I'll step out of the car." -CEO Doug Parker, USAirways. :)

Your quote is very accurate though.

Thanks for your reply trainer.
 
the moving of the 170's, to the AAA cert, kissing potomac goodbye, also resulted in what many see as an illegal, or problematic recall to mainline, but nobody wants to talk about that....
 
I also love the analogy, that you gave us life, so you should take our attrition???? The first post stated we lost 58 a/c or something like that, with a small amount of block time added back, but still upgraded quite a few. Meanwhile the west side has stagnated. If the west was such a rosy picture, wouldn't your tremendous growth and such have continued????

Or could it be, unfortunately our route networks somewhat compliment each other, which stagnated you, and ripped 58 airframes from us, and really hasn't been growth on the east (which there hasn't, total positions have continued to go down) but the retirements are why you see the upgrades......but you want those........
 
What WE brought to the table (attrition) .


Whoa there nellie.....


The attrition that you were about to enjoy in liquidation is not transferable to anyones table in real life.

The merger helped both of us. Per the Arbitrator it helped you guys more. So why do you east guys think you should get all the benefits??

Put the crack pipe down and give a straight answer.
 
the moving of the 170's, to the AAA cert, kissing potomac goodbye, also resulted in what many see as an illegal, or problematic recall to mainline, but nobody wants to talk about that....

It didn't have to be if it was handled correctly by the MEC in the first place. Their denial of MDA as part of U in early 2004 really was a screw up. The dynamics of their negotiations with U management and their willingness to vote Eagle pay rates for MDA "a priori" without required membership ratification set up the "problematic recall." Fact is, the APL were told MDA was not U. They were lied to. I'm told many of them have filed their own DFR suit. ALPA must have more than two hands to juggle all theses DFR suits.
 
Yup, and now even more to the insult, it seems MDA guys have been given longevity credit for pay etc, for the time spent at MDA, meanwhile, others at J4J carriers which were either not offered MDA, or frozen and not able to go, are not. Response from ALPA, zip, sorry, your not part of the special groups, can't imagine why anyone wants ALPA gone.


And Fast 43, the same can be said of your "future" deliveries, and movement. Was something in the future, you can't bring to the table.....so the stagnation is what you have....
 
Yup, and now even more to the insult, it seems MDA guys have been given longevity credit for pay etc, for the time spent at MDA, meanwhile, others at J4J carriers which were either not offered MDA, or frozen and not able to go, are not. Response from ALPA, zip, sorry, your not part of the special groups, can't imagine why anyone wants ALPA gone.

Your forgot stock options...sorry:smash:. I'm there, I undrstand.

Furloughed APL (prior to MDA) received their original longevity and MDA LOS. The CEL/APL have started at year 1 pay w/no LOS credit for MDA. Grievance filed May 07.
 
Ya Grievance filed for those, but what about the guys at Mesa, Transtates, CHQ, PSA???? I think they were told to pound sand on all accounts, including the stock options the CEL guys got....
 
Ya Grievance filed for those, but what about the guys at Mesa, Transtates, CHQ, PSA???? I think they were told to pound sand on all accounts, including the stock options the CEL guys got....

That was the deception of the AAA MEC. They originally were told MDA wasn't U and so they didn't bid to the E170. You can't transfer between J4J carriers unless you quit at one carrier. So, why come over to a WO subsidiary and get paid regional rates to fly a mainline aircraft?

And now you see the schizophrenic mentality of ALPA. "How can those pilots (at MDA...who ARE they?"), who are not US Airways Pilots receive stock pay outs and stock options? Oh...they were?

One other item that is very important to note. The MDA guys organized very effectively, became unified in their purpose. The results show that unity.
 
And Fast 43, the same can be said of your "future" deliveries, and movement. Was something in the future, you can't bring to the table.....so the stagnation is what you have....


Clearly then the current situation is very one sided as you just alluded to above....
 
No don't think so very well, Uhmmm...you said we couldn't bring our attrition, so how can you bring your growth???


Lottery ticket still burning a hole?
 
No don't think so very well, Uhmmm...you said we couldn't bring our attrition, so how can you bring your growth???


Lottery ticket still burning a hole?


Thats the point I was making, you in fact are getting your attrition and have been for 2.5 years. Out west not so much.

Latest info from the company shows that in 2008 you have 77 ACTIVE Capt positions attriting. We have 26 ACTIVE Capt positions attriting. Making a net of 51 Capt positions more available on your side.

So if all 2500+ of you are content with LOA 93 wages for the sake of 51 upgrades. Go ahead knock yourself out............after all, you all are the super experienced smart ones right???
 

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