So where is all the movement...on the East

[Green]

So if all 2500+ of you are content with LOA 93 wages for the sake of 51 upgrades. Go ahead knock yourself out............after all, you all are the super experienced smart ones right???

seriously does any east pilot care to comment on this fact?? Each captain is forsaking roughly 50k/year plus work rules/retirement/ and vacation in order to gain an extra 51 upgrades!! That's crazy! Your fo's are passing up roughly 35-30k per year for the sake of those 51 captain slots.

Even USAPA has stated that the nic award will stand. So the delay is just about getting a few more guys in the left seat before integration. At what point does it end up costing you too much? I would seriously love to hear a non-sarcastic answer from an eastie....Aren't you guys tired of the daily sh#t sandwich that is LOA93? Shouldn't we get something decent while the company is making 500million+/year in profits? Is this just turning into a screw AWA pilots out of spite scenario?

 

[FR8mastr]

I will try and give you an answer to some of your questions. I know this will bring out the usual "we saved you" crowd but....
The reasons that so many east pilots are trying to get rid of ALPA are many.

the backround ALPA has been doing a horrible job for years, East pilots have given up to 50% of their pay and the majority of their retirement. This was done under ALPA. Rightly or wrongly ALPA gets an F for representation during this time. (not to mention all the ALPA sanctioned oursourcing that has taken place)

The current... The Nic award goes against everything ALPA was supposed to stand for. Take yourself out of the East West argument for a sec. What we now have, is a union that says seniority means Nothing! As pilots we all know seniority is everything. But ALPA? Nothing.

The East pilots believe in this so strongly, that they are willing to work under LOA 93. They believe in this so strongly that even though, IMO, the NIC will never be changed by USAPA, they want the new union anyway as ALPA has completely lost its way and no longer serves the pilots it supposedly represents.

I tried not to bring any East West crap into this post, as I was just trying to give a reason without starting a pi$$ing match, to explain the East's desire for a new union.

Yes the pilots are definetely tired of that sandwich, and it has nothing to do with the West pilots other than the obvious difference of opinion over the Nic award.

 

[get2flyin]

ALPA has been doing a horrible job for years, East pilots have given up to 50% of their pay and the majority of their retirement. This was done under ALPA. Rightly or wrongly ALPA gets an F for representation during this time.

If you got screwed so badly back then, why didn't throw them out then. Why did you wait until the Nic award? Did you think treading on the AWA pilots would help make up for it's past faults?

The current... The Nic award goes against everything ALPA was supposed to stand for. Take yourself out of the East West argument for a sec. What we now have, is a union that says seniority means Nothing! As pilots we all know seniority is everything. But ALPA? Nothing

.....

I tried not to bring any East West crap into this post, as I was just trying to give a reason without starting a pi$$ing match, to explain the East's desire for a new union.

Yes the pilots are definetely tired of that sandwich, and it has nothing to do with the West pilots other than the obvious difference of opinion over the Nic award.

So what if you would have "merged" with Jetblue? Would you automatically assume everyone of them, including Captains, would be nothing more than furlough protection for your most junior furloughed F.O.s? DOH is reasonable when Legacies merge, but it is unrealistic when young and old come together. I'm going to go out on a limb and suspect ALPA figured that out and that's why they amended the merger policy. When you combine apples with oranges, you have to do a little parring to make them fit together.

I don't disrespect your seniority, but it's only a valuable commodity within YOUR company. Nic understood that and outside your group of angry pilots, the rest of the world doesn't see what the problem is. If we had a national seniority list, different story. We don't, so it's all relative.

The USAir Embraer Division. It's still fun to say.:laugh:

 

[Green]

I understand where you are coming from. The east is extremely displeased to say the least. Yet consider for a moment that going to USAPA will do absolutely nothing to change the nic award. All it will guarantee is 3-5 more years of THE WORST pay in the industry. Isn't that somewhat insane?

Question for you. Lets pretend you are the last guy on an airline's seniority list, lets take Dave Odell of AWA for example. If AWA chooses to not hire anyone for 10 years is Dave Odell any more senior on year 10 than he was year 1? In this hypothetical situation he still is the last reserve pilot at the company. Now lets say 8 years later Dave Odell is still the bottom guy and the company decides to furlough 500 pilots. Now Dave has 18 years with the company and he is out of a job. Is he any more senior than he was on day 1? Obviously he has more longevity but what about seniority?

Now lets imagine SWA comes in and merges with AWA. Does Dave Odell, in this situation, have the right to be recalled as a senior SWA captain due to the fact he was hired 18 years ago? Should he go from last pilot on the list, to out of a job, to line holding senior captain? Is that Alpa's merger policy?

Finally you keep pointing at ALPA as having been the reason for deep concessions at AAA. Remember that Alpa is run by your local reps. These same guys will likely end up in office with USAPA. The line pilots voted in favor of most of the concessions you mention. Nothing will change with USAPA except you will have a civil war going on where 40percent of the pilots refuse to pay dues, multiple lawsuits, and terrible pay for the forseeable future.

Again I understand your frustration. But going down this path just doesn't make sense.

 

[FR8mastr]

If you got screwed so badly back then, why didn't throw them out then. Why did you wait until the Nic award? Did you think treading on the AWA pilots would help make up for it's past faults?

I think it was the straw that broke the Camels back kind of thing. I dont believe this is personal against the west pilots. Nobody online has been saying anything bad against the west pilots, just ALPA and Nic.

So what if you would have "merged" with Jetblue? Would you automatically assume everyone of them, including Captains, would be nothing more than furlough protection for your most junior furloughed F.O.s?

Absolutely not, a staple is just as bad as disregarding seniority. Length of service, with fences for protection of the junior guys (thats my opinion)

I don't disrespect your seniority, but it's only a valuable commodity within YOUR company. Nic understood that and outside your group of angry pilots, the rest of the world doesn't see what the problem is. If we had a national seniority list, different story. We don't, so it's all relative.

US Airways is OUR company (west and East)

The USAir Embraer Division. It's still fun to say.:laugh:[/quote]

 

[FR8mastr]

I understand where you are coming from. The east is extremely displeased to say the least. Yet consider for a moment that going to USAPA will do absolutely nothing to change the nic award. All it will guarantee is 3-5 more years of THE WORST pay in the industry. Isn't that somewhat insane?

Probably, but if USAPA can make changes to the merger policy, the next one might go a little better. That would benefit future pilots

Question for you. Lets pretend you are the last guy on an airline's seniority list, lets take Dave Odell of AWA for example. If AWA chooses to not hire anyone for 10 years is Dave Odell any more senior on year 10 than he was year 1? In this hypothetical situation he still is the last reserve pilot at the company. Now lets say 8 years later Dave Odell is still the bottom guy and the company decides to furlough 500 pilots. Now Dave has 18 years with the company and he is out of a job. Is he any more senior than he was on day 1? Obviously he has more longevity but what about seniority?

Now lets imagine SWA comes in and merges with AWA. Does Dave Odell, in this situation, have the right to be recalled as a senior SWA captain due to the fact he was hired 18 years ago? Should he go from last pilot on the list, to out of a job, to line holding senior captain? Is that Alpa's merger policy?

I personally think that is exactly why length of service has to be a major part of a merger. Alpa's merger policy was changed to not include seniority, why that happened is open for debate

Finally you keep pointing at ALPA as having been the reason for deep concessions at AAA. Remember that Alpa is run by your local reps. These same guys will likely end up in office with USAPA. The line pilots voted in favor of most of the concessions you mention. Nothing will change with USAPA except you will have a civil war going on where 40percent of the pilots refuse to pay dues, multiple lawsuits, and terrible pay for the forseeable future.

The current reps wont be the reps for the new union, at least until the next election, they cant even run. You may be correct with the civil war stuff, I was just trying to explain the mind set in the East

Again I understand your frustration. But going down this path just doesn't make sense.

I dont think I could really convey the feeling on the East side, its really hard to do, especially on here. You might not agree, but just try to imagine being a 17 year guy that has never been furloughed and just like that you find yourself junior to a guy still on probation. Like I said you may not agree, but how would that make you feel on a personal level? That many times over is how the East feels about Nic. Add that to all the other stuff and we have the mess we find ourselves in. Again I am not trying to start a fight, I am only trying to explain the East mentality.

 

[FR8mastr]

sorry dupe post

 

[Hpilot]

Probably, but if USAPA can make changes to the merger policy, the next one might go a little better. That would benefit future pilots

If you think USAPA will be able to deal with an ALPA carrier in a merger you're nuts.

I personally think that is exactly why length of service has to be a major part of a merger. Alpa's merger policy was changed to not include seniority, why that happened is open for debate

18 years AWA = senior captain
18 years US = junior fo
Are you nut?

The current reps wont be the reps for the new union, at least until the next election, they cant even run. You may be correct with the civil war stuff, I was just trying to explain the mind set in the East

Yeah they're nuts.

I dont think I could really convey the feeling on the East side, its really hard to do, especially on here. You might not agree, but just try to imagine being a 17 year guy that has never been furloughed and just like that you find yourself junior to a guy still on probation. Like I said you may not agree, but how would that make you feel on a personal level? That many times over is how the East feels about Nic. Add that to all the other stuff and we have the mess we find ourselves in. Again I am not trying to start a fight, I am only trying to explain the East mentality.

We didn't have anyone on probation because thanks to the merger our 30 a month hiring screeched to a halt with the merger. Is the deal you mentioned with a 17 yr FO any more unfair than the top 500 spots going to pilots that would have been on the street. The worst deal is you guys wanted furloughed pilots to displace active AWA pilots. But all this jabber is futile because the BINDING ARBITRATION is over.

 

[Fast43]

I dont think I could really convey the feeling on the East side, its really hard to do, especially on here. You might not agree, but just try to imagine being a 17 year guy that has never been furloughed and just like that you find yourself junior to a guy still on probation. Like I said you may not agree, but how would that make you feel on a personal level? That many times over is how the East feels about Nic. Add that to all the other stuff and we have the mess we find ourselves in. Again I am not trying to start a fight, I am only trying to explain the East mentality.

Yes I agree its hard to do!!! at all times its hard to justify absurd behavior.

You could also look at it like this..... I've been here 17 years I'm still on the bottom and soon to be unemployed............but wait here is a "merger" and while I'm still on the bottom it's a much stronger company with a more secure future.


Whats unreasonable is for that 17 year guy to be pissed he can't be in a Captain seat as a result of a merger that kept him in a job. Clearly this practical outlook doesn't play well in Philly.


Like I said if living under LOA 93 is acceptable to 2500+ pilots so they can secure 51 upgrades, good for them. Parity with the bottom is assured for several years to come for the east



Don't worry though, Jihad Jack has his seat and he will tell you what to feel, absurd or not

 

[Freight Dog]

Seems like the Easties are confusing seniority with longevity.

If you were stuck on the bottom for 17-18 years as a junior FO, you only have yourself to blame for not leaving for any number of greener pastures. Your seniority could only hold reserve FO, you could be bounced out of a jumpseat by every other pilot on the seniority list, you're just a bottom plug.

RELATIVE SENIORITY in a merger is the only SANE/non-windfall way to merge any list... you couldn't hold sh*t pre-merger, you can't hold sh*t post-merger. If one were trying to argue vacation accrual, seniority for non-revving purposes, I'd probably be more sympathetic... but for the life of me, it just escapes me how is a bottom reserve FO entitled to a captain position overnight as a result of a merger?

BTW... I don't work, nor have I ever worked for any part of USAirways (to include the DASH division).

 

[TWA Dude]

dupe....

 

[TWA Dude]

Probably, but if USAPA can make changes to the merger policy, the next one might go a little better.

USAPA can make any merger policy it wants but there's no guarantee it will be used in the next merger.

Alpa's merger policy was changed to not include seniority...

More precisely, ALPA policy was changed to not specifically recommend DOH. However, it doesn't preclude it either. If Nicolau felt DOH/LOS was fair in this case he would've ruled thusly. What you fail to consider is that DOH would've favored the East side infinately. And fences don't prevent furloughs.

I dont think I could really convey the feeling on the East side, its really hard to do, especially on here. You might not agree, but just try to imagine being a 17 year guy that has never been furloughed and just like that you find yourself junior to a guy still on probation. Like I said you may not agree, but how would that make you feel on a personal level? That many times over is how the East feels about Nic. Add that to all the other stuff and we have the mess we find ourselves in. Again I am not trying to start a fight, I am only trying to explain the East mentality.

I think I understand the East mentality very well. Through no fault of your own your careers have suffered. You thus feel you're entitled to restitution and can't understand why Nicolau didn't give it to you. Most of the rest of us do understand that the only way to get your careers back on the track you desire is at the expense of the West pilots.

And you may find ALPA to be a convenient scapegoat but no other union would've achieved anything better for you. Say, for instance, the East was already USAPA when the merger with AWA was announced. Whose merger policy would've prevailed? If you think the larger carrier you'd be ignoring the effects of bankruptcy court. Remember how the mighty ALPA threw-in the towel and didn't even try to fight the APA on TWA's behalf?

The fact is the East pilots' careers were ruined by the financial condition of USAirways, not be George Nicolau and not by ALPA.

 

[MK82Man]

TWA -- very well said. The voice of reason/fairness again. I'm getting to the point of no longer trying to "help East/understand East". East doesn't want our help. East wants more at our expense. It's fundamentally immoral. The West has been very patient for two years ... at some point we stop trying to work with them. And then we become like them and work to improve our side of the house at their expense. Talk about Whipsaw! I hate even the thought of that. I never want to be like them. But at what point do we move forward as West pilots and re-work our contract? We have such a great opportunity for collective gain ... they just don't care. They don't want bilateral improvement; they want single sided gains at our expense. I keep telling folks to be optimistic, but I'm sliding into pessimism. Can John Prater right the sinking ship?