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Astar/ABX

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UM#1 said:
The Astar Boys (and girls) have walked the walk many times... in Wilmington a few times, Miami, etc... and they're more than ready to make the biggest walk of their lives, if it comes to that....


Happy Halloween DHL Customers
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Not exactly what I was refering to. Your protestations of support mean little if you continue to insist all DHL freight is yours by virtue of your scope clause.
 
erichartmann said:
Not exactly what I was refering to. Your protestations of support mean little if you continue to insist all DHL freight is yours by virtue of your scope clause.
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Maybe you should re-read these:

http://astarlabortalks.com/scope1.html

http://astarlabortalks.com/pdf/Signed Scope Side Letter 12-21-98.pdf
  • Present and future flying to be performed by pilots on DHL Airways/ASTAR seniority list.
  • Except for specific caveats, the scope clause guarantees ASTAR pilots ALL U.S. DHL network domestic freight and percentage of International flying.
  • Successorship for any purchase or merger.
  • Side letter that binds DHL Holdings USA to Section 1 of our agreement
We are not suing ABX air or IBT! We have a suit against our employer and DHL!

If we don't fight for SCOPE, then ALL airline pilots might as well give up on SCOPE all together! This fight is not only for our SCOPE clause, but all airlines SCOPE clauses. This is a precedent setting case, and the outcome will mean the future of all airline pilot SCOPE clauses in the USA!!

Working together, we can secure DHL flying in the US for ABX and ASTAR. Especially since we will be surely be one company in the not too distant future! Remember who is pulling the strings.
 
I'm back - for a minute or two.

erichartmann said:
Not exactly what I was refering to. Your protestations of support mean little if you continue to insist all DHL freight is yours by virtue of your scope clause.
Click to expand...

Eric,

You make assumptions that in the event we were to win our scope claim against DHL, we would be instantly and absolutely looking to wipe ABX out.

Actually, by looking closely at our scope language, and thinking about it, there is another outcome that would meet the contractual needs of the ASTAR pilots without shutting ABX down.

DHL arguably owes our pilots damages of some sort by trying weasel out of its commitments. That's why I can't drop the grievance. I'm certainly not going to get sued for not enforcing our contract as written. It is a horrible precedent for everyone.

But, really your EBoard and our MEC should come to an agreement about what will happen if we were to win.

I suspect you'll find that all this poking each other in the eye over scope was just a waste of everyone's time because both DHL Airways and ABX Air leadership at the time (2003) were being parochial and were not being realistic.

Both sides.

Earl

PS I still need an ABX seniority list with DOB.
 
Johnlp3 said:
Maybe you should re-read these:

http://astarlabortalks.com/scope1.html

http://astarlabortalks.com/pdf/Signed Scope Side Letter 12-21-98.pdf
  • Present and future flying to be performed by pilots on DHL Airways/ASTAR seniority list.
  • Except for specific caveats, the scope clause guarantees ASTAR pilots ALL U.S. DHL network domestic freight and percentage of International flying.
  • Successorship for any purchase or merger.
  • Side letter that binds DHL Holdings USA to Section 1 of our agreement
We are not suing ABX air or IBT! We have a suit against our employer and DHL!

If we don't fight for SCOPE, then ALL airline pilots might as well give up on SCOPE all together! This fight is not only for our SCOPE clause, but all airlines SCOPE clauses. This is a precedent setting case, and the outcome will mean the future of all airline pilot SCOPE clauses in the USA!!

Working together, we can secure DHL flying in the US for ABX and ASTAR. Especially since we will be surely be one company in the not too distant future! Remember who is pulling the strings.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of what the language says. I'm also of the understanding that the CBA in question was signed by DHL while a parent/subsidiary relationship existed.
It no longer existed at the time of the alleged violation. Your ill advised attempt to enforce what can be seen as an invalid scope clause side letter has had the effect of potentially invalidating all ALPA negotiated scope clauses. Good job:puke:
 
steamgauge said:
Eric,

You make assumptions that in the event we were to win our scope claim against DHL, we would be instantly and absolutely looking to wipe ABX out.

Actually, by looking closely at our scope language, and thinking about it, there is another outcome that would meet the contractual needs of the ASTAR pilots without shutting ABX down.

DHL arguably owes our pilots damages of some sort by trying weasel out of its commitments. That's why I can't drop the grievance. I'm certainly not going to get sued for not enforcing our contract as written. It is a horrible precedent for everyone.

But, really your EBoard and our MEC should come to an agreement about what will happen if we were to win.

I suspect you'll find that all this poking each other in the eye over scope was just a waste of everyone's time because both DHL Airways and ABX Air leadership at the time (2003) were being parochial and were not being realistic.

Both sides.

Earl

PS I still need an ABX seniority list with DOB.
Click to expand...

DOB? Do you mean Date of Hire? I doubt the E-Board can provide Date of Birth without violating privacy laws.

I'm not sure what a judge (or arbitrator) would have done. If it was found there was merit in your case it could easily have resulted in DHL being ordered to cease doing business with ABX. Had that been done, then Astar could have simply contracted with ABX on behalf of DHL to haul the freight Astar was incapable of hauling. The excess lift in the sytem could have gradually been phased out (it was anyway) and then the fun would have begun.

ABX's ACMI allows it to "put" surplus aircraft to DHL. Those aircraft could then have been transferred to Astar, increasing Astar's lift. Astar could hire off the street to crew them, perhaps with preferential interviews to furloughed ABX pilots, who would wind up on the bottom of your seniority list. As Astar's lift was increased by the former ABX aircraft, more ABX aircraft would have been parked as being surplus. I sure you can figure out the end of result of that play.

This might have occured anyway, had ABX allowed the surplus aircraft to be "put" to DHL. Hete decided to do otherwise, and the surplus aircraft were cut up. I suspect this is part of the reason Hete is disliked by DP/DHL. He refused to play by their rules. I doubt his primary reason is concern for the employees of ABX, in particular the pilots. (Hete is reputed to have refered to us as scum sucking scorpions) Hete no doubt sees his actions as way to make more money for himself.

Alternatively, Astar could have attemped a buyout of ABX. With the ACMI invalid, this would have been a fairly cheap option. In the event the actual attempt was considerably more expensive, and failed. The price was not right, at least in Hete's mind. The public announcement of the "interest" is proof that talks had already failed. I view the announcement of "interest" as an attempt to drive ABX stock price down and make the offer more attractive.

Astar could also have sought additional lift from other sources. I'm not sure why this was not done, but suspect it has to do with cost. ABX's ACMI is cheap. It barely covers the costs. This option would also result in the whole loss of jobs at ABX.

The least likely result in my view is that the end result would be for DHL to be ordered to pay some indeterminate amount of money to the Astar pilots to settle the case.

As you can see, your (ALPA 017) actions potentially represent a tremendous threat to the careers and livelihood of ABX's pilots. I'm quite sure you are fully aware of this.

steamgauge said:
But, really your EBoard and our MEC should come to an agreement about what will happen if we were to win.
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Our arriving at some sort of agreement would certainly be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, it will be a moot point unless the two carriers are merged. This may be the most likely resolution, but it is not ordained, thus the threat remains.

An asset sale in which the pilots were allowed to follow the equipment would accomplish the same thing providing a satisfactory agreement on seniority list merger were in hand. Again, not a sure thing.

My point is that what happens (i.e. merger, asset sale etc) is beyond the control of the two labor groups regardless of any agreement at which we may arrive. Any agreement must be backed up with the understaning that if Astar aquires ABX or its equipment then ABX pilots go with the aircraft, and an acceptable seniority merger is in place. Can you bind your management to this?
 
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All good points. My point is that it is (and has been) possible to reduce the threat of our Section 1 grievance to you without giving up our rights.

Are you interested in continuing to flame back and forth about this for the next three years or are you interested in working this out and moving on?

Earl
 
steamgauge said:
All good points. My point is that it is (and has been) possible to reduce the threat of our Section 1 grievance to you without giving up our rights.

Are you interested in continuing to flame back and forth about this for the next three years or are you interested in working this out and moving on?

Earl
Click to expand...

While some of my posts are undoubtably flames others are intended to convey the facts as seen from the ABX POV, which differs from those presented by some of your constituancy. Frankly, trying to tell me 017 wasn't trying to steal my job while the hand is still in the cookie jar is insulting and, in my view, deserves to be flamed particularly when accompanied by the (perhaps unintended) arrogance of some 017's posters.

Reduction of the threat might be helpful, but would probably not appease all of ABX's pilots. I cannot speak for all us, only myself, nor am I in a position to guide the conduct of 1224. Speaking for myself alone, I may forgive, depending on how things work out, but I will probably never forget.

BTW, you did not answer my question regarding DOB vs DOH.
 
No... Whats insulting is your premise that the DHL spinoff of ASTAR was a legitamate way to cancel the scope clause of ASTAR. Who do you work for ABX or DHL anyway? I'm grow weary of your demands for us to drop our scope clause grievance. Please stop BSing everyone. If you had your scope "cancelled" by the formation of a virtual shell company, You'd fight tooth and nail for vindication. You wouldn't drop it, don't expect us to. I haven't heard you vent yet on Hete and Donaway the real culprits, the people resposible for the ABX pilots position. The one who sold to DHL. If you do in fact work as an ABX crewmember, get on board and join forces with us. If not, shut your mouth and go it alone.
AMF
 
Meat n the Seat said:
No... Whats insulting is your premise that the DHL spinoff of ASTAR was a legitamate way to cancel the scope clause of ASTAR. Who do you work for ABX or DHL anyway? I'm grow weary of your demands for us to drop our scope clause grievance. Please stop BSing everyone. If you had your scope "cancelled" by the formation of a virtual shell company, You'd fight tooth and nail for vindication. You wouldn't drop it, don't expect us to. I haven't heard you vent yet on Hete and Donaway the real culprits, the people resposible for the ABX pilots position. The one who sold to DHL. If you do in fact work as an ABX crewmember, get on board and join forces with us. If not, shut your mouth and go it alone.
AMF
Click to expand...

AMF.....nice! You are the type of jerk that keeps this a fight.

SY and the CAT1 aircraft that brought you in.

:uzi:
 
Meat n the Seat said:
No... Whats insulting is your premise that the DHL spinoff of ASTAR was a legitamate way to cancel the scope clause of ASTAR. Who do you work for ABX or DHL anyway? I'm grow weary of your demands for us to drop our scope clause grievance. Please stop BSing everyone. If you had your scope "cancelled" by the formation of a virtual shell company, You'd fight tooth and nail for vindication. You wouldn't drop it, don't expect us to. I haven't heard you vent yet on Hete and Donaway the real culprits, the people resposible for the ABX pilots position. The one who sold to DHL. If you do in fact work as an ABX crewmember, get on board and join forces with us. If not, shut your mouth and go it alone.
AMF
Click to expand...
After that little outburst, now I bet you would like a jumpseat!
 
nitefr8dog said:
After that little outburst, now I bet you would like a jumpseat!
Click to expand...

Probably no more so than the thousands of JS's ALPA represented airlines have given to teamsters over the years. The same ALPA ABX management and DHL are sueing.

A JS war cut's both ways, and unless both sides are content to ride on only their unions JS's to get to ILN, probably wouldn't be a prudent move, but if it comes to that, I guarantee you I can and do ride on ALPA all the time, and Teamsters less and less. Two year long term pass at CVG and crash pad car works just fine, and nobody can threaten to take it away cause they don't like my latest grievance.
 
All you girls (both sides) need to step back and not get your panties in a bunch. We, as in both groups, will never agree nor will either side convince the other that they are right. Let the courts decide it and be civilized to each other. This whole mess sucks for both sides.

Relax.
 
If you don't want our jumpseats let us know. I haven't, and won't ride ASTAR but I've given rides to many an ASTAR pilot. I'll continue to do so but we don't respond well to threats. But then if you have your way we won
 
Cargoav8or said:
All you girls (both sides) need to step back and not get your panties in a bunch. We, as in both groups, will never agree nor will either side convince the other that they are right. Let the courts decide it and be civilized to each other. This whole mess sucks for both sides.

Relax.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with that. ABX does not like what Astar is doing to DHL because it has a direct impact on their company and possible future. Astar does not like that ABX has given a cold shoulder to Astar as a result. Unless Astar changes their grievance to exclude ABX, which happens to be the only airline listed in the grievance, or drop it all together ABX will not be happy. Unless Astar takes all of the ABX work away by winning the grievance they will not be........hey, wait a minute.

nevermind, continue as you see fit.
 
scarface said:
If you don't want our jumpseats let us know. I haven't, and won't ride ASTAR but I've given rides to many an ASTAR pilot. I'll continue to do so but we don't respond well to threats. But then if you have your way we won
Click to expand...

Do we smell bad or something?
 
Both groups need to get their sh#$ together!

If you guys keep fighting each other you will both (groups) go down in flames.

Grow up! Get your sh#4 together and fight the real enemy; your respective mgt. teams and DHL!

Come on, are both groups stupid enough to believe that mgt and DHL are not loving every minute of this disagreement.

Instead of flaming each other and threatening jumpseats, Earl (and I do respect the fact that you sign your name to your posts) and the ABX guy need to sit down, like men and leaders and discuss this thing and work something out.

Together you both have mgt and DHL by the balls and all you need to do is squeeze instead of repeatedly kicking each other.

Can you both get together?

Show the world that pilots are smart!
 
AV8OR said:
threaten to take it away cause they don't like my latest grievance.
Click to expand...

If any of our crews denies you a jumpseat PM one of us and we'll address it on our end.

Astar crews have always been great to me when I've ridden on your airplanes.
 
Thanks LJ. The only place I've ever heard anyone bring the JS into the discussion has been on this board, and I think it's minority.
 
shooter said:
I have to agree with that. ABX does not like what Astar is doing to DHL because it has a direct impact on their company and possible future. Astar does not like that ABX has given a cold shoulder to Astar as a result. Unless Astar changes their grievance to exclude ABX, which happens to be the only airline listed in the grievance, or drop it all together ABX will not be happy. Unless Astar takes all of the ABX work away by winning the grievance they will not be........hey, wait a minute.

nevermind, continue as you see fit.
Click to expand...

No wonder they call it dickspatch. :rolleyes:
 
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Cargoav8or said:
Sure did. Took about much thought as your response.
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you seem to lack respect for others in the industry. I am willing to help with that. I am waiting for an answer.
 

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