We're Takin It Back!

[smeggler]

PCL 128 is a PFT bastard. Now he thinks he is all high and mighty because he is at AirTran and he can talk down to us regional pukes. Well guess what dipsh*t, Airtran, if you haven't figured out yet is basically a regional with only slightly bigger airplanes. And if that BS TA passes you will see exactly what I mean. Good luck to you and I have nothing against those at Airtran (especially Lear70) but the rest of us would rather not listen to the rantings of some PFT d*@chebag! Congrats on your job but never forget where you came from! Its PFT pukes who help drive down the compensation for new FOs. I mean why pay someone for the job if that person is willing to pay for it themselves.
Oh and by the way I am represented by ALPO. And at my company our motto is fly now grieve later. Which basically means the company can interpret the contract however they want and maybe 12 months from now I might be able to grieve it and possibly get a ruling within a couple of years and by then who cares anyway. Hell our company routinely decides to not follow the contract and I don't hear jack sh*t from the union except for we are filing a grievance. Months later there has still been no response. If any of you Skywest guys and gals are listening I am telling you it is no different from what you have now except the only difference is that you will be paying dues. Rant over and PCL shut the F*ck up!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Actually, the facts do back that up. You simply refuse to acknowledge the facts. True or false, Joey: the ASA MEC's budget exceeds the amount of dues revenue that the ASA pilot group sends to the Association. As a former ST, you should know that the answer to that question is a resounding TRUE.

That fact by itself is true.... however, for the rest of the story.....

1. Money alone can't trump the competition that management is using with the "portfolio" concept.... That will only be overcome when the mainline groups and ALPA national decide that true "brand scope" is a requirement of any future contract.... I won't hold my breath, but that is what is required.....

2. Because of that money that the regionals receive from ALPA, they become beholden to the mainline and to ALPA national.

In summary, we receive more money than we put in, but we still have to compete for flying, and we are beholden to our "masters".... Thanks but No Thanks!

You should do a little bit more reading, Joey. The AFL-CIO is opposed to this law because 70% of the SSA "mismatch" cases are of legal United States citizens and are only caused by clerical errors. There are much better ways to enforce immigration law that don't put legal workers at risk.

Maybe you should do a little more reseach before you shoot your mouth off.....

New Orleans - Adopting a significant change in policy, the American labor movement called for blanket amnesty for illegal immigrants yesterday and an end to most sanctions against employers who hire them.
In past decades, labor unions often saw immigrant workers as the enemy, accusing them of depressing wages and breaking strikes. But the executive council of the AFL-CIO adopted a more sympathetic approach, contending that too often, U.S. immigration rules have enabled employers to exploit illegal immigrants.

That came from:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/021700-02.htm

Comments?

Couldn't be about dues money in a declining membership environment now could it?

 

[TurboAWD]

Just ask the East Coast Airways Pilot group how they feel about how ALPA represented them.

ALPA National represented them just fine. Their elected reps went to the integration negotiations with unreasonable goals, and the result is their pilots got screwed.

Turbo

 

[PCL_128]

In summary, we receive more money than we put in, but we still have to compete for flying, and we are beholden to our "masters".... Thanks but No Thanks!

So, in summary, it has absolutely nothing to do with money. Thanks for proving my point for me, Joe. As for the master/slave relationship that you keep referring to, I've asked you repeatedly for your ideas to fix the current system, but you still provide none. I am all in favor of a system that ends the regional/mainline divide, but I have yet to hear any workable solutions.

Maybe you should do a little more reseach before you shoot your mouth off.....

Wow, you dug deep for that one, Joey! That article was written over 7 years ago when Clinton was still in office. I'm honestly not sure what the AFL-CIO's current position is on amnesty, but I haven't heard anything lately from them in support of it.

 

[DX Rick]

Just as I suspected, no comments on the actual facts. Just more ignorance from the anti-ALPA zealots.

Mr Pro ALPA.
How do you feel, knowing you PAID an Eastern SCAB for your first job?
Second, why did you leave an ALPA carrier for an non ALPA carrier?

You do nothing but spin and deflect questions.

 

[PCL_128]

Second, why did you leave an ALPA carrier for an non ALPA carrier?

I left a regional for a career airline. Despite it not being ALPA (which I would prefer), it is a union carrier. I did not apply to any non-union carriers during my job search. Although I feel that ALPA is the best option, there's certainly nothing wrong with having an internal union if that's what the majority wants. The important thing is having representation so that you can contribute to pattern bargaining.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So, in summary, it has absolutely nothing to do with money. Thanks for proving my point for me, Joe. As for the master/slave relationship that you keep referring to, I've asked you repeatedly for your ideas to fix the current system, but you still provide none. I am all in favor of a system that ends the regional/mainline divide, but I have yet to hear any workable solutions.

There needs to be one list, and one voice for each brand.... until that time, we will continue to compete with each other..... union or not, ALPA or not, we will compete.... Brand scope initiated by the mainlines and ALPA national will be needed to accomplish this.... however I won't hold my breath...

Wow, you dug deep for that one, Joey! That article was written over 7 years ago when Clinton was still in office. I'm honestly not sure what the AFL-CIO's current position is on amnesty, but I haven't heard anything lately from them in support of it.

The AFL CIO hasn't changed it's tune since then.... they are still opposed to fighting illegal immigration.... you have become quite the Democratic lap dog in addition to you Herndon lap dog duties....

 

[PCL_128]

There needs to be one list, and one voice for each brand.... until that time, we will continue to compete with each other..... union or not, ALPA or not, we will compete.... Brand scope initiated by the mainlines and ALPA national will be needed to accomplish this.... however I won't hold my breath...

Brand scope would have been great when the brand was easily definable. When I went to work for Pinnacle, the brand was easy to define: NWA, PCL (then EXA), and MSA. Now NewCo (umm, I mean Compass) has been added to the list, and PCL flies for Delta also. How do you combine this "brand" into one seniority list now? Do the PCL guys get added to the NWA list, or the DAL list? Do they just get left out in the cold, despite being ALPA members? The DAL brand is the hardest to define. How many feeder carriers does DAL now use? Is it up to 10 now? Some are non-ALPA, some are non-union, how do you combine this "brand" into a single list, Joe? The brand scope ship has sailed. The mainline pilots FUBARed that one pretty good. Time to look for a new solution.

The AFL CIO hasn't changed it's tune since then.... they are still opposed to fighting illegal immigration.... you have become quite the Democratic lap dog in addition to you Herndon lap dog duties....

Check your other thread. I'm with you on this one...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Brand scope would have been great when the brand was easily definable. When I went to work for Pinnacle, the brand was easy to define: NWA, PCL (then EXA), and MSA. Now NewCo (umm, I mean Compass) has been added to the list, and PCL flies for Delta also. How do you combine this "brand" into one seniority list now? Do the PCL guys get added to the NWA list, or the DAL list? Do they just get left out in the cold, despite being ALPA members? The DAL brand is the hardest to define. How many feeder carriers does DAL now use? Is it up to 10 now? Some are non-ALPA, some are non-union, how do you combine this "brand" into a single list, Joe? The brand scope ship has sailed. The mainline pilots FUBARed that one pretty good. Time to look for a new solution.

It wasn't too late when ASA and CMR filed the PID.... I actually supported ALPA at that time..... Your right that they "FUBARed" this, but many of us at the regional level "told them so" long before they "FUBARed" it....

It may be too late to reverse it now, I don't now... however don't ask me to accept this failure... I will continue to do what is best for me despite the failures of ALPA, and I will never support ALPA again until it reverses it's behavior....

Check your other thread. I'm with you on this one...

That's progress.....
:beer:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There really is no future in the airlines. Same stuff that has been going on for years.

Agreed! Many jobs have been eliminated over time due to outsourcing or technology. Air Line Pilots are no different....

Get informed... the globalization is here...

The simple fact is this:

ALPA has NEVER been in control, and, given their history, never will. That said, they have nothing to "take back."

This is correct. ALPA is not in control. The stuffy old white men in pinstripe suits determined a long time ago that labor will not shutdown the railroads or the airlines.

Now, you [the reader] think you are one of the golden boys: An Air LINE pilot? Well, no one really gives a steamer about you. The pax want thier cheap tickets, management wants the jet flown when, how, and where they want it and your wife wants the house note paid. (or she is making her own bank and really doesn't care what you do for a living..)

The only people that care about Air Line Pilots are Air Line Pilots. So you can man up and care about your self or you can whine and complain that no one cares about you and life is not fair....

 

[DX Rick]

The important thing is having representation so that you can contribute to pattern bargaining.

Ah yes, but in other threads you preach that it HAS to be ALPA because of their "resources" and how no one compares to them.

Second. You haven't answered my question about how YOU PAID an Eastern Airlines SCAB...a well known EAL Scab, for your first "job" in the airline industry.

 

[PCL_128]

Ah yes, but in other threads you preach that it HAS to be ALPA because of their "resources" and how no one compares to them.

That's right. Nothing compares to the level of resources that ALPA provides. That's exactly why I said that I'd prefer for us to merge into ALPA at some point. That's up to the pilot group here, and hopefully we'll make that decision at some point.

Second. You haven't answered my question about how YOU PAID an Eastern Airlines SCAB...a well known EAL Scab, for your first "job" in the airline industry.

Nothing to really answer about it. Everyone on this board has known that for a long time. Stupid thing I did a long time ago and now regret. What questions exactly do you have about it?

 

[A350]

PCL:

My main problem is this incessant ALPA cheerleading....as I am sure you are tired of my ALPA sucks mantra. However, I think you cannot possibly believe the crap you write.

First, you claim ALPA isn't about money. I disagree. From the list I have seen, ALPA pays a whole lot of coin to some people who basically do jack. Secondly, your statement of UAL paying $15 mil in and getting $5 mil out is extremely telling. ALPA is a modern day Robin Hood. They take from the UAL group, and give to the regionals.....the very regionals that have taken flying and jobs from them since the 9/11 attacks. Do you not see a genuine conflict of interest?

Mainline pilots didn't screw the pooch on this brand scope thing all on their own....they had help in the form of great leadership from ALPA national and the minions of pilots all scrambling into the profession, some by the high road and some paying for their jobs.

How you can come on here and pontificate is beyond me. While I don't believe PFT is as dubious to the profession as some, it amazes me that there are those who did what they did to get the job and then b$#%^ about the conditions in it and how the rest of us screwed up.

A350

 

[siucavflight]

You regional guys just don't get it. You cost ALPA far more than you'll ever pay in!!! You hear that giant sucking sound? That's the sound of the regional ALPA carriers sucking all of the dues income from the legacy carriers who actually pay for the ALPA services that you use. If ALPA was "all about the money" as you say, then ALPA would dump every regional airline and only focus on the legacies. There's no money to be made in representing regional pilot groups.

You have a very good point. We do use more money then what we pay in. I would like to see the regionals represent themselves. Eagle has been trying for a while now to form their own pilot groups. ALPA at the regional level does not work.

I am not even sure that ALPA is a real union. My father is in construction. He is represented by Local 150 here in Chicago, all of the members are paid the same wages regardless of the company they work at. You never see them trying to undercut each other like we do here at airlines.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

And still, the anti union guys offer no solutions. They're happy when a union carrier raises the bar for them, and they keep their 2%. Then they do their best to get hired at a major , where they will gladly join a union.

You see guys/girls- it's not really about unions, it's ALL ABOUT THEM!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And still, the anti union guys offer no solutions. They're happy when a union carrier raises the bar for them, and they keep their 2%. Then they do their best to get hired at a major , where they will gladly join a union.

You see guys/girls- it's not really about unions, it's ALL ABOUT THEM!!!

That is right... for some reason they want ALPA to be their personal agent. SHOW ME THE MONEY....

How do you expect a 60,000 member union to make everyone happy. Serve the collective, not the individual... you will gain much more...

 

[PCL_128]

However, I think you cannot possibly believe the crap you write.

Believe it 100%. I wouldn't have spent five years of my life devoted to ALPA work if I didn't.

First, you claim ALPA isn't about money. I disagree. From the list I have seen, ALPA pays a whole lot of coin to some people who basically do jack.

Who are you referring to? How do you know that they do "jack?" Have you met them and worked with them? Have you seen what they do on a daily basis? Most ALPA staffers make a fraction of what they could make at similar jobs away from ALPA. Most of them continue to work with ALPA because they truly believe in the cause of organized labor.

Secondly, your statement of UAL paying $15 mil in and getting $5 mil out is extremely telling. ALPA is a modern day Robin Hood. They take from the UAL group, and give to the regionals.....the very regionals that have taken flying and jobs from them since the 9/11 attacks. Do you not see a genuine conflict of interest?

Not at all. ALPA is responsible for protecting the entire profession. They do a great job of balancing their responsibilities to make sure that all parties are represented fairly. The UAL pilots have to pay to subsidize the other carriers, but it's in their long-term best interest to make sure that all carriers are represented to uphold the overall profession. What happens to the regionals will eventually affect the guys at the majors, and vice-versa. We're all in this together.

Mainline pilots didn't screw the pooch on this brand scope thing all on their own....they had help in the form of great leadership from ALPA national and the minions of pilots all scrambling into the profession, some by the high road and some paying for their jobs.

Very true. So, do we dwell on the past and complain about mistakes that have already been made, or do we find solutions and move forward? I'll take the latter. If you want to dwell on the past and be bitter, then that's your choice to make. I'd rather work to improve the profession.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The problem is that we don't seem to be learning from mistakes from the past

 

[BigMeat]

Hey guys. Next time you dont feel like you want a union I want you to call Johnny Ornstein and ask him what your worth. Joe Merchant you are obviously pissed about something but I garuntee that ASA wouldnt be any near what it is today without ALPA. Did you get turned down at Delta? Yeah sure you didnt go for the interview. As a matter of fact are you not one of those RJDC guys. Yeah, the guys that wanted to relieve scope even further so that they could fly 100+ seat jets for 60k a year? Thank God for unions in this industry or we would all be screwed. Not perfect but necessary.

 

[wms]

The only thing ALPA, Teamsters or anyother outside Union thinks about is Money. You sure do not get your money's with any of them. Just ask the East Coast Airways Pilot group how they feel about how ALPA represented them. I have always been a supporter of in house pilot unions.

ASA has tried to force me to violate the FAR's by exceeding the 8-hour rest rule four times. They've tried to force me to take my days off outside of domicile, and they've accused me of being unprofessional with scheduling (the tapes showed the schedulers were wrong during the grievance). Without ALPA I would've been threatened with disciplinary action for standing up for the right thing. I don't know where you work, but at ASA we would not be safe without ALPA. Contracts are only part of the issue. It's been worth my 2% to have someone advocate for me when I've needed the help. It's worth 2% to keep a company from imposing its will for its own selfish purposes. ALPA has issues, but they're minor compared to being on your own when you need an advocate. If you're a SKYW captain on the 70-seater 2% is about $1500 per year. How much did you lose flying the -700 for 50-seat rates those years after your pay rate was supposed to have been restored?

 

[§kyye Candy]

My understanding is that ALPA refused to represent GLA, which is why they ended up with the Teamsters. Not big enough = not enough dues = why bother.

 

[PCL_128]

My understanding is that ALPA refused to represent GLA, which is why they ended up with the Teamsters. Not big enough = not enough dues = why bother.

Again, it has nothing to do with dues. All of the ALPA regionals cost more than they bring in in dues revenue.

 

[BoilerUP]

My understanding is that ALPA refused to represent GLA, which is why they ended up with the Teamsters. Not big enough = not enough dues = why bother.

The same thing happened with Chautauqua.

Pretty sure both happened last decade....

 

[PCL_128]

The same thing happened with Chautauqua.

Pretty sure both happened last decade....

Never underestimate the ability of the anti-ALPA zealots to dwell on the past while ignoring the future.

 

[A350]

PCL:

What about the ALPA zealots like yourself....who offer no solutions themselves except to say the rest of us are apathetic slobs who don't know what is good for us.....only the almighty union knows.

If ALPA could admit a mistake of the past and FIX it, I would be very apt to think they are worthy of the profession. But they never admit mistakes, they never fix the problems, they just blow smoke and collect dues.

There needs to be deep changes.....I agree we cannot go back, but the future is anything but certain and the reason most of us are so against ALPA is that they never learn and try something different.

ALPA takes money from UAL and gives it to the smaller carriers who pick up flying at another union pilots expense. ALPA represents both. I cannot be the only one that sees a huge conflict of interest. I cannot be the only one that doesn't think ALPA has done much to "protect the profession".

A350

 

[PCL_128]

PCL:

What about the ALPA zealots like yourself....who offer no solutions themselves except to say the rest of us are apathetic slobs who don't know what is good for us.....only the almighty union knows.

You want solutions? Look at the pilots over at ASA that are slowing down and writing up airplanes without any prompting from the union. That's your solution. Pilots standing up for themselves and taking ownership of their careers and their profession. That is the solution to our problems. Pilots that sit around an b#tch on flightinfo and cry that ALPA isn't the magic wand that they want it to be are the problem. When pilots get involved in their own careers, stand up for themselves, and get involved in the political process, then we'll see some improvements. ALPA can't do it for you.

 

[A350]

Sorry, but if ALPA can't do it for me, WTF do I pay dues?

Why should anyone stand up for themselves.....another union group will come in and screw them.....and ALPA national will sign the contract that guarantees it.

A350

 

[Airline Driver]

ASA has tried to force me to violate the FAR's by exceeding the 8-hour rest rule four times. They've tried to force me to take my days off outside of domicile, and they've accused me of being unprofessional with scheduling (the tapes showed the schedulers were wrong during the grievance). Without ALPA I would've been threatened with disciplinary action for standing up for the right thing. I don't know where you work, but at ASA we would not be safe without ALPA. Contracts are only part of the issue. It's been worth my 2% to have someone advocate for me when I've needed the help. It's worth 2% to keep a company from imposing its will for its own selfish purposes. ALPA has issues, but they're minor compared to being on your own when you need an advocate. If you're a SKYW captain on the 70-seater 2% is about $1500 per year. How much did you lose flying the -700 for 50-seat rates those years after your pay rate was supposed to have been restored?

Union's are a necessary evil in our business. I am happy that your situation worked out in your favor. There are however allot of open grievances with many companies, mine being one of them. I am a 170/175 Captain for Republic, we have some GREAT union reps behind our pilot group who really do go to bat for us. I would rather see our Pilot group eventually move to an in-house union. I feel as though we would have a little more control and a better working relationship with management if we were. Unfortunately I do not see this happening in the near future. So to speak honestly, I guess I would rather have union representation than none at all. I am though going to stick with my original statement and say that 99% of the time all Unions think about is money.

 

[PCL_128]

Sorry, but if ALPA can't do it for me, WTF do I pay dues?

Because ALPA provides the resources to get you the contract after you've shown management that you have some balls. ALPA is only as strong as the pilots that it represents. Without the support of the pilots, a union is worthless, and without the support of a union, all the unity in the world won't get you jack sh*&. You need to have both. That small check that you write to ALPA isn't an excuse to sit back and do nothing for your career and just expect ALPA to magically make it all happen for you.

 

[A350]

ALPA also provides the resources to other union pilot groups, who work for other ALPA represented airlines, who come in and take your flying.

No amount of balls will ever stop that...unless ALPA national grows some. The union is worthless because the leadership will never say no to any contract, no matter what the consequences to the membership.

A350