2300 signatures and counting!

[regionaltard]

Airspeed, altitude & brains, you've gotta have at least two.

So what's it like being 0 for 3? Sorry they botched the longevity integration......

 

[BeCareful!]

Information that I received from USAPA says that overturning the award via litigation would be "fruitless," but that a successor union would be "free" to negotiate with the company concerning integration. This is far from the (typical) FlightInfo hype that says the East thinks the award would be dumped if ALPA were toast on the property. How lame this place is, where everything gets blown completely out of any recognizable proportion.

However, there are many, many of us who want ALPA off the property for a vast array of reasons that the average AWA guy might not know about or understand. These problems date back to the days before AWA was ALPA, and they involve the political nature of the beast and the self-interests that get addressed behind closed doors. Most of us would like to see those boyz get out on the line and live with the contract they "negotiated."

 

[LJDRVR]

So what's it like being 0 for 3? Sorry they botched the longevity integration......

Wow, thanks for the comic relief.

Yet another poster with the reading comprehension skills of a third-grader with ADHD all jacked-up on pre-sweetened cereal.

To sum it up for you; (And read carefully here putz)

• I fly for a different major airline. Not US Airways. Not AWA.

• I was posting out of concern over the vitriol heaped towards the East guys and was simply questioning why there wasn't more empathy towards a group of pilots who careers were destroyed.

There were one or two posters (not you) who were able to lucidly explain the reason behind the animosity, thus helping me better understand the situation.

Most were idiotic loudmouths like yourself, who don't even bother to read these threads carefully before coming on here with guns blazing. You just ASSumed that anybody posting anything resembling an empathetic stance towards the US Air folks, is one of them. (I certainly hope you don't bring this sort of limited, one-dimensional thinking to in-flight emergencies.)

My tag line stands. I certainly hope you've got the airspeed and altitude, because you don't come across as very clever.

As I said in a previous post, I wish all you guys the best. (Even you regionaltard. )

 

[get2flyin]

BTW, the USAirways east pilots are not interested in decertifying ALPA to have the Nicolau award thrown out, although if it can be that would be great. They are interested in calling ALPA out so that they answer for the inadequacies of the very group that should have protected them. Further, time is on their side. If they can delay the implementation of the award for a few years, the attrition that should have been theirs will be theirs. The AWA pilots can enjoy their great contract and the East guys can go on with their lives as well. Decertifying ALPA will not destroy the profession.

A350

Every thing else being equal, if Nic would have chosen straight date of hire and allowed the furloughees to waltz back and displace PHX Captains, would the East by trying to through ALPA out? I don't think so. They would be carrying Prater around PHL on their shoulders singing [SIZE=-1]Kumbayaa and telling the West pilots to suck it up. [/SIZE]

 

[PositiveRate]

BeCareful,

You're right, BUT, the take away from the "free to negotiate" line is that they believe the award could be neutured by creating union bylaws that state contract seniority negotiations are to be DOH and only DOH. Thus, the grandfathered award would be in conflict with the bylaws and could be negotiated into oblivion.

I agree that as political and bad ALPA is, the road without them is much more bumpy, especially in the near term.

Good luck to us all.

 

[TurboAWD]

Most of us would like to see those boyz get out on the line and live with the contract they "negotiated."

And that you guys voted for. And started the biggest slide this profession has ever had (well, tied with letter RJ's fly with non-mainline seniority list pilots).

Turbo

 

[regionaltard]

To sum it up for you; (And read carefully here putz)

• I fly for a different major airline. Not US Airways. Not AWA.

• I was posting out of concern over the vitriol heaped towards the East guys and was simply questioning why there wasn't more empathy towards a group of pilots who careers were destroyed.

Hmm, I think that what I said applies to anyone who thinks that the East pilots driving this thing are anything more than a delusional bunch of crybabies who mistakenly believe that one miracle entitles them to another. If the shoe fits......

I'd like to reiterate my belief that the Easties are entitled to be upset about the way the longevity integration was handled-they really got hosed on that one.

 

[Noserider76]

However, there are many, many of us who want ALPA off the property for a vast array of reasons that the average AWA guy might not know about or understand. These problems date back to the days before AWA was ALPA, and they involve the political nature of the beast and the self-interests that get addressed behind closed doors. Most of us would like to see those boyz get out on the line and live with the contract they "negotiated."

I have no dog in this hunt really but I'm trying to get a better understanding. I sympathize with the hardships the good people at US Airways have endured but how is ALPA really to blame? The problem as I see it is that you were unfortunate to work for a company that was terribly mismanaged and made so many bad decisions for so long.

 

[Doug Parker]

I have no dog in this hunt really but I'm trying to get a better understanding. I sympathize with the hardships the good people at US Airways have endured but how is ALPA really to blame? The problem as I see it is that you were unfortunate to work for a company that was terribly mismanaged and made so many bad decisions for so long.

If you are the junior guy on property with 18 years of service and in your SECOND bankruptcy - THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL.

Why these guys hung on after being raped in the tar-star for so many years is beyond me.........me thinks maybe they have grown to enjoy it ???

Actually, the smart ones left and moved on to bigger and better things - that means we are stuck with the dumbazzes..........



.

 

[PCL_128]

Most of us would like to see those boyz get out on the line and live with the contract they "negotiated."

Then perhaps you should recall them and replace them with better reps rather than getting rid of the entire union.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Show me where I suggested any such thing. I was simply pointing out that the Airways East folks have a little more room for bitching than you do, and that the caustic tone directed at them on this thread was severely one-sided and harsh.

My guess (I work elswhere, Mr. reading comprehension) is they are simply pissed at the total and complete lack of representation they have recieved from ALPA the last several years.

I'll say it again, you'd be just as pissed and involved in the same activities if you were one of them.

Your right . I would be pissed. But I would be pissed at all the right people. I would be pissed off at Jack Stephen and his merry band of henchman for lying to me about DOH being achievable when in reality they were advised on 3 seperate occasions that it wasn't. I would be pissed at my Merger Comittte reps. for keeping me in the dark and not providing me with daily accounts of the arbitration proceedings in the form of court transcripts ,something that the AWA pilots were provided with throughout the arbitration proceedings from day one and also when Nicolau called both groups back to modify their positions after these proceedings closed. And I would be royally pissed at any member of PHL Council 41 who voted on the resolution calling for a DOH intergration and nothing less,thus effectively tieing their MEC's hands behind their back and preventing calmer minds from prevailing .THATS who I would be pissed off at. But,nooooo ...not them .They will blame any one and everyone they run across for their current situation with the exception of one .The person that's looking back at them from the mirror in the morning.

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

If you want to "call someone out," then I suggest you look at your own MEC. This issue never should have gone to arbitration in the first place, and after it did go to arbitration, it was horribly mismanaged. ALPA National does not get involved in the seniority integration debate at individual carriers. The C & BLs prohibits it. The direction that your MEC took was based entirely on their own strategy, not that of ALPA National. Place the blame where it belongs.

BRAVO MY FRIEND!!! Very well said, and a concept that the average 'eastie" just doesnt comprehend. If they are looking for a place to lay blame ,it should be with their own MEC Chairman, for pushing for DOH intergration, their Merger Comittee Chairman for refusing to stand up to him when he did, (although I understand he made a lame attempt and backed down wnen Stephen threatened to remove him from his position when he was advised that DOH was not achievable)and the members of PHL C41 for passing a resolution calling for nothing less than DOH intergrqation with the AWA pilots,thus preventing calmer minds from prevailing in the long run. To blame anyone but themselves for their current state of affairs defies logic as does the fact that no one has started a recall drive to remove the reps responsible for this alleged debacle from office.



PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

US East A330, 767, 757 Capts and FO's make more than AWA guys. AWA make more on the A320/737.

Don't matter. Both payrates suck regardless whose contract you're working under or the aircraft flown....


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Information that I received from USAPA says that overturning the award via litigation would be "fruitless," but that a successor union would be "free" to negotiate with the company concerning integration. This is far from the (typical) FlightInfo hype that says the East thinks the award would be dumped if ALPA were toast on the property. How lame this place is, where everything gets blown completely out of any recognizable proportion.

However, there are many, many of us who want ALPA off the property for a vast array of reasons that the average AWA guy might not know about or understand. These problems date back to the days before AWA was ALPA, and they involve the political nature of the beast and the self-interests that get addressed behind closed doors. Most of us would like to see those boyz get out on the line and live with the contract they "negotiated."

Well, if you want to see "those boyz get out on the line and live with the contract they 'negotiated'" why
don't you initiate a recall drive at your next LEC meeting and start the process to have them removed from office,especially after all the alleged "harm" they caused you guys. Or does that take too much effort to accomplish? After all,that's where the blame lies. And as far as negotiating a new senority list as USAPA members,you think Parker is going to cut you a better deal than Nicolau did??? YGTBSM!!! He'll roll thru you guys like Sherman did Atlanta.But don't listen to me. According to "Jihad Jack" Stephen, I'm just a "rookie"


PHXFLYR

 

[A350]

When are you clowns going to get it straight? The East MEC asked for DOH, with fences that protected each side of operation. This would never have allowed an East FO who was junior or furloughed to go to PHX and displace a CA at AWA.

The fences would have protected the attrition of the East and the "growth" that all you Westies think was coming your way.

ALPA National stays out of seniority integration, and has a nebulous policy so that it cannot be sued if its stated policy "screws the pooch".....You see, when you stand up and make an arguement, you place yourself in harms way. ALPA hasn't put itself on the line in 25 years. They put you in harms way, but never the Association.

I dare say, that all you West, holier than thou ALPA bangers would be screaming as loud if not louder than the East guys if you ended up junior to someone who has 18 years less service at the airline and would, as a result either never upgrade or have your career progression cut short for the duration.

You are badly outnumbered in any vote and this issue will not go away as the East guys will live it for the rest of their careers. An East FO who can delay the Nic award will upgrade and make more than he would if he "plays nice", eats his @$#T sandwich, and negotiates a new contract. So don't expect it soon, if ever.

A350

 

[PHXFLYR]

Every thing else being equal, if Nic would have chosen straight date of hire and allowed the furloughees to waltz back and displace PHX Captains, would the East by trying to through ALPA out? I don't think so. They would be carrying Prater around PHL on their shoulders singing [SIZE=-1]Kumbayaa and telling the West pilots to suck it up. [/SIZE]

Taking this premis one step further , do you think that if the scenario above did play out and it was the AWA pilots asking for fences or other forms of relief from a final and binding arbitrators decision after the fact ,do you think for a second that any USAir pilot would be receptive to the idea??? Let me save you the trouble and answer that for you..... HE11 NO!!


PHXFLYR

 

[PCL_128]

When are you clowns going to get it straight? The East MEC asked for DOH, with fences that protected each side of operation. This would never have allowed an East FO who was junior or furloughed to go to PHX and displace a CA at AWA.

A350, the problem is that Nic made it pretty clear that DOH was not going to happen. He told your reps to come back with another proposal, and they still insisted on DOH. Whether DOH is the right way to integrate or not (and I happen to agree that it is), that really isn't the issue. Merger policy doesn't include DOH anymore, and Nic made it clear that he wasn't going to award DOH. After that became clear to the merger reps and MEC, the strategy should have changed, even if they felt that DOH was the fair method. You have to play the hand that you're dealt. With Nic, the hand dealt did not hold the cards for DOH. Such is the nature of the beast when dealing with arbitrators.

I hope every other pilot group out there takes the right lesson away from this debacle: NEVER LET SENIORITY INTEGRATIONS GO TO ARBITRATION!!!!!!

 

[PHXFLYR]

A350

The problem with your proposal is the fact that most of the jr pilots would have been based in PHX. Not a bad thing per se,especially when the company is stable or possibly expanding, The rub is when a down turn occurs and the inevitable furloughs follow. Guess where they'll come from ? Your most jr domicile,as it should, which in this case would be PHX. So now the jr guys get furloughed creating vacancies in PHX. Guess who fills them??? Yup . You guys. This is exactly what happened to the TWA guys in STL following the AA merger. Fortunatly,we had a former TWA MD80 Capt on our Merger Committe and he was going to make dam sure that something like that wasn't going to occur on his watch again.


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

I hope every other pilot group out there takes the right lesson away from this debacle: NEVER LET SENIORITY INTEGRATIONS GO TO ARBITRATION!!!!!!

Sage advice ,once again!!! A question for all you guys and gals in the merger "on deck" circle (ie United Delta,NWA)
ANYBODY LISTENING ??????
More importantly..... ANYBODY CARE ??????


PHXFLYR

 

[A350]

OK, so we are going to base the whole merged list on what "might" happen if there is a downturn?

According to you Westies, the West was a happening place with growth and profits and no chance of ever furloughing, right?

PCL: If Nicolau was saying that DOH wasn't going to happen and you say it isn't part of ALPA merger policy, why is Prater running around spouting that the arbitrator doesn't have to abide by ALPA merger policy? If the merged list doesn't have to comply with merger policy, why not DOH then? Why not a staple? Because on their own they are unreasonable. A merged list, with appropriate fences to protect each group, would have worked and if that had occurred, ALPA wouldn't find themselves in this mess.

Further, there could have been protections that afforded both groups with furlough protection that spread the pain equally between the groups. After all, you are in this mess together, right? At this point, if USAir furloughs, the USAir guys bear the chance of furlough alone.

A350