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Virgin America Jumpseat

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First of all it's a start up. Are there any carriers or companies for that matter that were union the first year? two years? five years?

Don't know. Whip out Flying the Line and you can tell me the date where each airline became unionized. I don't even care if they get unionized other than the fact that if they do, it's highly likely they'll want something resembling industry standard and my airline's management won't use them as a hammer to average down our narrowbody rates when our contract is up in '09.

I understand the double edged sword of the union, however, usually management dictates when a union comes on property.

If that were true, we'd never have any unions. We'd still have sweatshops in Massachusetts and children working in Colorado mines.


I'm union now and thank God, because the management here at NK would decimate us if we weren't. And that's when they follow the contract to begin with.

I hear ya, brother ;)

What are the pay rates for 1st year captain at UAL or any other airline for that matter? I'm sure they are low because you don't have first year captains.

I hear guys saying that, but I don't think it's a valid point. I guarantee you that if mature airlines in this industry did have 1st year Captains on a regular basis, the rates would be much higher than whatever they are now. No Union in their right mind is going to waste valuable negotiating captial when their contract is up to raise 1st year Captain rates when they're not expecting anyone to make Captain until several years on the property.

As far as market share goes. You will always have the 3 types of passengers...or guests as it may be.

1) will always go brand loyality because of perks, destinations or just "I always fly____" no matter what. This passenger maybe swayed because to another carrier, but probably won't.

This people tend to be high yield people and are not price sensitive. Not too many of these people anymore (as a % of total customers), and where they do exist, they provide a disprotionate amount of revenue for their airline.


2) always takes the cheapest ticket. No one can get this guy all the time and he deserves what he gets.

Yes you can. Just offer the lowest fare. You can get him (and maybe even make a profit) by keeping your costs very low. Since labor is an airline's 1st or 2nd highest cost, what management can do is use lower paid employees. Since costs associated with pilots are the highest part of an airline's labor costs, even undercutting other's airlines pilot wages by a small amount can have a big effect on the bottom line. It even allows you to use low pilot wages to take market share from other airlines by luring those customers away from your competitors.


3) The guest that want's to be treated well. Is tired of either the cattle call, or being treated like a cog in huge machine and poor customer service. Is tired of all the crap and is looking for something better and will pay more for it. The guest wants to be treated like a human being. This passenger (or guest) is going to fly VA and the other carriers won't get him/her back unless corporate culture changes.

I think that's baloney. Every customer SAYS they want to be treated well. They won't pay for it, however. If customer service was so important, you'd go to sites like Orbitz, Expedia, etc., and instead of ranking airline choices by schedule and price (the two things that REALLY are the most important to customers), they'd be a ranking of some sort of customer service- perhaps DOT criteria of some sort. You'll never see that because that's not what is most important. Airlines like JetBlue wouldn't be selling airplanes and slowing growth because I think we have to admit that they probably have some of the best perceived customer service out there. Pax care about price. Pax care about schedule. The consumer is getting EXACTLY what they are paying for from the airline industry when it comes to customer service.
 
Don't know. Whip out Flying the Line and you can tell me the date where each airline became unionized. I don't even care if they get unionized other than the fact that if they do, it's highly likely they'll want something resembling industry standard and my airline's management won't use them as a hammer to average down our narrowbody rates when our contract is up in '09.



If that were true, we'd never have any unions. We'd still have sweatshops in Massachusetts and children working in Colorado mines.




I hear ya, brother ;)



I hear guys saying that, but I don't think it's a valid point. I guarantee you that if mature airlines in this industry did have 1st year Captains on a regular basis, the rates would be much higher than whatever they are now. No Union in their right mind is going to waste valuable negotiating captial when their contract is up to raise 1st year Captain rates when they're not expecting anyone to make Captain until several years on the property.

As far as market share goes. You will always have the 3 types of passengers...or guests as it may be.



This people tend to be high yield people and are not price sensitive. Not too many of these people anymore (as a % of total customers), and where they do exist, they provide a disprotionate amount of revenue for their airline.




Yes you can. Just offer the lowest fare. You can get him (and maybe even make a profit) by keeping your costs very low. Since labor is an airline's 1st or 2nd highest cost, what management can do is use lower paid employees. Since costs associated with pilots are the highest part of an airline's labor costs, even undercutting other's airlines pilot wages by a small amount can have a big effect on the bottom line. It even allows you to use low pilot wages to take market share from other airlines by luring those customers away from your competitors.




I think that's baloney. Every customer SAYS they want to be treated well. They won't pay for it, however. If customer service was so important, you'd go to sites like Orbitz, Expedia, etc., and instead of ranking airline choices by schedule and price (the two things that REALLY are the most important to customers), they'd be a ranking of some sort of customer service- perhaps DOT criteria of some sort. You'll never see that because that's not what is most important. Airlines like JetBlue wouldn't be selling airplanes and slowing growth because I think we have to admit that they probably have some of the best perceived customer service out there. Pax care about price. Pax care about schedule. The consumer is getting EXACTLY what they are paying for from the airline industry when it comes to customer service.


Do you reap the benefits of a capitalist society? Do you believe in a free market system?

I think you misunderstood a previous poster that mentioned the idea of a company getting a union when they want it. I believe you can think of it as a company gets the union it deserves.

I do understand that there is a real need for unions in this world and our industry, however, they are not mandatory. They have brought much good and nearly equal negative harm.

I would rather work for VA with the going rates for a minute, build a pile of cash, take market share, and then ask for raises. If management is not benevolent, then unionize and get what you can get.

Juice
 
I would rather work for VA with the going rates for a minute, build a pile of cash, take market share, and then ask for raises. If management is not benevolent, then unionize and get what you can get.

Let me rephrase this for you. What you're really saying is that instead of working for a company that earns its market share by providing a superior product for its customers, you'd rather work at the "VA going rates" (i.e. undercut your peers). Then you'd want your company to use the money it saves by not paying you the "going rate" to enrichen the executives of your company, and also to use those savings to subsidize your company's product so that it can charge a cheaper price and take business away from those carriers that do pay "the going rate." Then, after you've run you're competitors largely out of town by undercutting them, you'll then ask for raises.

Of course, by then asking for those raises, you're screwing yourself long term. Just as the likes of VA, Allegiant, Skybus have learned the lessons taught to them by the JetBlue's, Airtran's and Frontier's of the 90's/00's, the airlines of the 2010's will take a page out of VA's book and use the same technique that you just described to undercut VA. And the downward spiral continues.....

But back on thread topic: Oh yeah, and by the way UAL, AMR, CAL, NWA.....Can we ride your jumpseat so we can get to our jobs and accomplish the above?

Well bluejuice, at least your honest about your desire and reasons for wanting to undercut the rest of us.
 
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Let me rephrase this for you. What you're really saying is that instead of working for a company that earns its market share by providing a superior product for its customers, you'd rather work at the "VA going rates" (i.e. undercut your peers). Then you'd want your company to use the money it saves by not paying you the "going rate" to enrichen the executives of your company, and also to use those savings to subsidize your company's product so that it can charge a cheaper price and take business away from those carriers that do pay "the going rate." Then, after you've run you're competitors largely out of town by undercutting them, you'll then ask for raises.

Of course, by then asking for those raises, you're screwing yourself long term. Just as the likes of VA, Allegiant, Skybus have learned the lessons taught to them by the JetBlue's, Airtran's and Frontier's of the 90's/00's, the airlines of the 2010's will take a page out of VA's book and use the same technique that you just described to undercut VA. And the downward spiral continues.....

But back on thread topic: Oh yeah, and by the way UAL, AMR, CAL, NWA.....Can we ride your jumpseat so we can get to our jobs and accomplish the above?

Well bluejuice, at least your honest about your desire and reasons for wanting to undercut the rest of us.

Uh, ask an average Jetblue Captain what he earns vice the same at UAL or NWA. Also, while this is not quantifiable, spend some time on the JS of any of these carriers and see who is happy.

Yes, I agree with much of what you have stated, but you throw in the catalyst of enriching executives. Most of the legacy guys have been so bent over by management that you have no trust whatsoever. If Virgin proves that this is what they are about then I expect they should unionize.

As far as superior product, have you ridden in the back of a UAL a/c in the last year? For that matter, any legacy. No thanks.

Juice
 
Uh, ask an average Jetblue Captain what he earns vice the same at UAL or NWA.

Should I ask the E190 Captain what he earns for his 737/DC-9 sized aircraft and then ask the UAL or NWA 737/DC-9 Captain what he earns?

Also, while this is not quantifiable, spend some time on the JS of any of these carriers and see who is happy.

I would gess that there must be some amount of unhappiness there as they seem to have somewhat of an attrition problem. Not a big problem, but it's there. If someone is going to leave JetBlue to come back to lowly 'ole UAL, I suspect something is up over there with at least some guys' "happiness."


Yes, I agree with much of what you have stated, but you throw in the catalyst of enriching executives. Most of the legacy guys have been so bent over by management that you have no trust whatsoever. If Virgin proves that this is what they are about then I expect they should unionize.[/

It's not a matter of "trust." It will happen. The pilots there (and other employees too, I don't know?) are obviously subsidizing the company's bottom line. The bonuses that the executives earn at Virgin will be based upon some amount of financial performance by the company. Since the low pilot salaries there are adding to the company's bottom line, some of the salary that they are giving up will end up in their executive's pockets in the form of enhanced financial performance which yields bonuses for the big management guys. If you don't believe me, just wait a year or two.

And I guess one could argue that if the VA executives are so smart that they can convince their pilots to happily work for less than 2/3's of their peers AND ACTUALLY DEFEND IT, then those executives deserve that bonus! They probably high five each other when they walk down the hallway for that little feat of genius.

As far as superior product, have you ridden in the back of a UAL a/c in the last year? For that matter, any legacy. No thanks.

I agree. So why don't we all compete on THAT instead of playing the "let's see who can underpay their pilot (employees) the most" game? Why are you such a willing pawn?

Look guys, major thread drift I understand. And I'm beating a dead horse. I'm done.
 
According to airlinpilotpay.com,
6th year VA A-320 F/O: $72
6th year UAL A320 F/O: $82

Seems fairly similar to me.
 
I will not ask for a j/s on VA, nor will I accept a VA
pilot on my jumpseat (AA).

Have you also communicated this to your J/S Coordinator, tough guy?

It's guys like this that bring this industry down to the level of a kindergarten sandbox fight.
 
According to airlinpilotpay.com,
6th year VA A-320 F/O: $72
6th year UAL A320 F/O: $82

Seems fairly similar to me.

And
12 yr UAL320 CAP/FO: $133/$91
12 yr JBLU320 CAP/FO: $147/$87

And that's not counting hours over 70 paid at 150% at JBLU.

Are you sure you're not pulling down the industry UALdriver?
 
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And
12 yr UAL320 CAP/FO: $133/$91
12 yr JBLU320 CAP/FO: $147/$87

And that's not counting hours over 70 paid at 150% at JBLU.

Are you sure you're not pulling down the industry UALdriver?

Let's see if I have this correctly Hair....

United had industry leading wages until the likes of Southwest, Jetblue, and Airtran come around (no knock on those pilots) who paid low wages, NO pension, 5 leg days, etc. etc.

Management takes them into BK because of Mgmt. stupidity or maybe having to compete with the same "Low-cost" employee model. Irregardless, in order to keep their jobs, the UAL folks (and others, me included) get handed a steaming pile of contract reeking of the low-cost model you introduced and accepted.....no pensions, low wages, better "efficiency", just to compete and keep food on the table.....they capitulate........the end result, you tagging THEM as pulling down the industry???

Get with it man, the next VA or flyGreen or whoever floats down the trough will then undercut you and make you "high-cost" and the downward spiral will continue.........

BTW, I am all for the above listed airlines negotiating their pay up, more power to them, as a whole, we can bargain UP for a change.....
 
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Let's see if I have this correctly Hair....



Management takes them into BK because of Mgmt. stupidity or maybe having to compete with the same "Low-cost" employee model. Irregardless, in order to keep their jobs, the UAL folks (and others, me included) get handed a steaming pile of contract reeking of the low-cost model you introduced and accepted.....no pensions, low wages, better "efficiency", just to compete and keep food on the table.....they capitulate........the end result, you tagging THEM as pulling down the industry???

This about sums it up for todays airline pilot. And to take it one step further, as one who is at the bottom of a "major" seniority list, I'm sick of hearing the more senior pukes who feel a more junior pilot should not try to improve his career by jumping over to VA. The junior puke should languish at the bottom and continue to provide QOL for a senior guy? Face it, the "majors" are not going anywhere....read stagnant...and upward mobility on the seniority list is a pipe dream.

I say go to VA, roll the dice, do a good job, and upgrade fast.

Or, sit as reserve F/O and get some crumbs....maybe. Oh, and don't commute.
 

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