Virgin America Jumpseat

[ualdriver]

First of all it's a start up. Are there any carriers or companies for that matter that were union the first year? two years? five years?

Don't know. Whip out Flying the Line and you can tell me the date where each airline became unionized. I don't even care if they get unionized other than the fact that if they do, it's highly likely they'll want something resembling industry standard and my airline's management won't use them as a hammer to average down our narrowbody rates when our contract is up in '09.

I understand the double edged sword of the union, however, usually management dictates when a union comes on property.

If that were true, we'd never have any unions. We'd still have sweatshops in Massachusetts and children working in Colorado mines.

I'm union now and thank God, because the management here at NK would decimate us if we weren't. And that's when they follow the contract to begin with.

I hear ya, brother

What are the pay rates for 1st year captain at UAL or any other airline for that matter? I'm sure they are low because you don't have first year captains.

I hear guys saying that, but I don't think it's a valid point. I guarantee you that if mature airlines in this industry did have 1st year Captains on a regular basis, the rates would be much higher than whatever they are now. No Union in their right mind is going to waste valuable negotiating captial when their contract is up to raise 1st year Captain rates when they're not expecting anyone to make Captain until several years on the property.

As far as market share goes. You will always have the 3 types of passengers...or guests as it may be.

1) will always go brand loyality because of perks, destinations or just "I always fly____" no matter what. This passenger maybe swayed because to another carrier, but probably won't.

This people tend to be high yield people and are not price sensitive. Not too many of these people anymore (as a % of total customers), and where they do exist, they provide a disprotionate amount of revenue for their airline.

2) always takes the cheapest ticket. No one can get this guy all the time and he deserves what he gets.

Yes you can. Just offer the lowest fare. You can get him (and maybe even make a profit) by keeping your costs very low. Since labor is an airline's 1st or 2nd highest cost, what management can do is use lower paid employees. Since costs associated with pilots are the highest part of an airline's labor costs, even undercutting other's airlines pilot wages by a small amount can have a big effect on the bottom line. It even allows you to use low pilot wages to take market share from other airlines by luring those customers away from your competitors.

3) The guest that want's to be treated well. Is tired of either the cattle call, or being treated like a cog in huge machine and poor customer service. Is tired of all the crap and is looking for something better and will pay more for it. The guest wants to be treated like a human being. This passenger (or guest) is going to fly VA and the other carriers won't get him/her back unless corporate culture changes.

I think that's baloney. Every customer SAYS they want to be treated well. They won't pay for it, however. If customer service was so important, you'd go to sites like Orbitz, Expedia, etc., and instead of ranking airline choices by schedule and price (the two things that REALLY are the most important to customers), they'd be a ranking of some sort of customer service- perhaps DOT criteria of some sort. You'll never see that because that's not what is most important. Airlines like JetBlue wouldn't be selling airplanes and slowing growth because I think we have to admit that they probably have some of the best perceived customer service out there. Pax care about price. Pax care about schedule. The consumer is getting EXACTLY what they are paying for from the airline industry when it comes to customer service.

 

[bluejuice787]

Don't know. Whip out Flying the Line and you can tell me the date where each airline became unionized. I don't even care if they get unionized other than the fact that if they do, it's highly likely they'll want something resembling industry standard and my airline's management won't use them as a hammer to average down our narrowbody rates when our contract is up in '09.



If that were true, we'd never have any unions. We'd still have sweatshops in Massachusetts and children working in Colorado mines.




I hear ya, brother



I hear guys saying that, but I don't think it's a valid point. I guarantee you that if mature airlines in this industry did have 1st year Captains on a regular basis, the rates would be much higher than whatever they are now. No Union in their right mind is going to waste valuable negotiating captial when their contract is up to raise 1st year Captain rates when they're not expecting anyone to make Captain until several years on the property.

As far as market share goes. You will always have the 3 types of passengers...or guests as it may be.



This people tend to be high yield people and are not price sensitive. Not too many of these people anymore (as a % of total customers), and where they do exist, they provide a disprotionate amount of revenue for their airline.




Yes you can. Just offer the lowest fare. You can get him (and maybe even make a profit) by keeping your costs very low. Since labor is an airline's 1st or 2nd highest cost, what management can do is use lower paid employees. Since costs associated with pilots are the highest part of an airline's labor costs, even undercutting other's airlines pilot wages by a small amount can have a big effect on the bottom line. It even allows you to use low pilot wages to take market share from other airlines by luring those customers away from your competitors.




I think that's baloney. Every customer SAYS they want to be treated well. They won't pay for it, however. If customer service was so important, you'd go to sites like Orbitz, Expedia, etc., and instead of ranking airline choices by schedule and price (the two things that REALLY are the most important to customers), they'd be a ranking of some sort of customer service- perhaps DOT criteria of some sort. You'll never see that because that's not what is most important. Airlines like JetBlue wouldn't be selling airplanes and slowing growth because I think we have to admit that they probably have some of the best perceived customer service out there. Pax care about price. Pax care about schedule. The consumer is getting EXACTLY what they are paying for from the airline industry when it comes to customer service.

Do you reap the benefits of a capitalist society? Do you believe in a free market system?

I think you misunderstood a previous poster that mentioned the idea of a company getting a union when they want it. I believe you can think of it as a company gets the union it deserves.

I do understand that there is a real need for unions in this world and our industry, however, they are not mandatory. They have brought much good and nearly equal negative harm.

I would rather work for VA with the going rates for a minute, build a pile of cash, take market share, and then ask for raises. If management is not benevolent, then unionize and get what you can get.

Juice

 

[ualdriver]

I would rather work for VA with the going rates for a minute, build a pile of cash, take market share, and then ask for raises. If management is not benevolent, then unionize and get what you can get.

Let me rephrase this for you. What you're really saying is that instead of working for a company that earns its market share by providing a superior product for its customers, you'd rather work at the "VA going rates" (i.e. undercut your peers). Then you'd want your company to use the money it saves by not paying you the "going rate" to enrichen the executives of your company, and also to use those savings to subsidize your company's product so that it can charge a cheaper price and take business away from those carriers that do pay "the going rate." Then, after you've run you're competitors largely out of town by undercutting them, you'll then ask for raises.

Of course, by then asking for those raises, you're screwing yourself long term. Just as the likes of VA, Allegiant, Skybus have learned the lessons taught to them by the JetBlue's, Airtran's and Frontier's of the 90's/00's, the airlines of the 2010's will take a page out of VA's book and use the same technique that you just described to undercut VA. And the downward spiral continues.....

But back on thread topic: Oh yeah, and by the way UAL, AMR, CAL, NWA.....Can we ride your jumpseat so we can get to our jobs and accomplish the above?

Well bluejuice, at least your honest about your desire and reasons for wanting to undercut the rest of us.

 

[bluejuice787]

Let me rephrase this for you. What you're really saying is that instead of working for a company that earns its market share by providing a superior product for its customers, you'd rather work at the "VA going rates" (i.e. undercut your peers). Then you'd want your company to use the money it saves by not paying you the "going rate" to enrichen the executives of your company, and also to use those savings to subsidize your company's product so that it can charge a cheaper price and take business away from those carriers that do pay "the going rate." Then, after you've run you're competitors largely out of town by undercutting them, you'll then ask for raises.

Of course, by then asking for those raises, you're screwing yourself long term. Just as the likes of VA, Allegiant, Skybus have learned the lessons taught to them by the JetBlue's, Airtran's and Frontier's of the 90's/00's, the airlines of the 2010's will take a page out of VA's book and use the same technique that you just described to undercut VA. And the downward spiral continues.....

But back on thread topic: Oh yeah, and by the way UAL, AMR, CAL, NWA.....Can we ride your jumpseat so we can get to our jobs and accomplish the above?

Well bluejuice, at least your honest about your desire and reasons for wanting to undercut the rest of us.

Uh, ask an average Jetblue Captain what he earns vice the same at UAL or NWA. Also, while this is not quantifiable, spend some time on the JS of any of these carriers and see who is happy.

Yes, I agree with much of what you have stated, but you throw in the catalyst of enriching executives. Most of the legacy guys have been so bent over by management that you have no trust whatsoever. If Virgin proves that this is what they are about then I expect they should unionize.

As far as superior product, have you ridden in the back of a UAL a/c in the last year? For that matter, any legacy. No thanks.

Juice

 

[ualdriver]

Uh, ask an average Jetblue Captain what he earns vice the same at UAL or NWA.

Should I ask the E190 Captain what he earns for his 737/DC-9 sized aircraft and then ask the UAL or NWA 737/DC-9 Captain what he earns?

Also, while this is not quantifiable, spend some time on the JS of any of these carriers and see who is happy.

I would gess that there must be some amount of unhappiness there as they seem to have somewhat of an attrition problem. Not a big problem, but it's there. If someone is going to leave JetBlue to come back to lowly 'ole UAL, I suspect something is up over there with at least some guys' "happiness."

Yes, I agree with much of what you have stated, but you throw in the catalyst of enriching executives. Most of the legacy guys have been so bent over by management that you have no trust whatsoever. If Virgin proves that this is what they are about then I expect they should unionize.[/

It's not a matter of "trust." It will happen. The pilots there (and other employees too, I don't know?) are obviously subsidizing the company's bottom line. The bonuses that the executives earn at Virgin will be based upon some amount of financial performance by the company. Since the low pilot salaries there are adding to the company's bottom line, some of the salary that they are giving up will end up in their executive's pockets in the form of enhanced financial performance which yields bonuses for the big management guys. If you don't believe me, just wait a year or two.

And I guess one could argue that if the VA executives are so smart that they can convince their pilots to happily work for less than 2/3's of their peers AND ACTUALLY DEFEND IT, then those executives deserve that bonus! They probably high five each other when they walk down the hallway for that little feat of genius.

As far as superior product, have you ridden in the back of a UAL a/c in the last year? For that matter, any legacy. No thanks.

I agree. So why don't we all compete on THAT instead of playing the "let's see who can underpay their pilot (employees) the most" game? Why are you such a willing pawn?

Look guys, major thread drift I understand. And I'm beating a dead horse. I'm done.

 

[Huggyu2]

According to airlinpilotpay.com,
6th year VA A-320 F/O: $72
6th year UAL A320 F/O: $82

Seems fairly similar to me.

 

[PinnacleDude]

According to airlinpilotpay.com,
6th year VA A-320 F/O: $72
6th year UAL A320 F/O: $82

Seems fairly similar to me.

Until you have to live on it.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I will not ask for a j/s on VA, nor will I accept a VA
pilot on my jumpseat (AA).

Have you also communicated this to your J/S Coordinator, tough guy?

It's guys like this that bring this industry down to the level of a kindergarten sandbox fight.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

According to airlinpilotpay.com,
6th year VA A-320 F/O: $72
6th year UAL A320 F/O: $82

Seems fairly similar to me.

And
12 yr UAL320 CAP/FO: $133/$91
12 yr JBLU320 CAP/FO: $147/$87

And that's not counting hours over 70 paid at 150% at JBLU.

Are you sure you're not pulling down the industry UALdriver?

 

[vixin]

......

 

[bluejuice787]

cruxx@9

1st year CA pay at SWA $156 per trip. or about $175/hr.

I know we dont have any 1st year CA but if we did that is the pay.

SWA 36 years old.

VA three weeks.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Double post

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

And
12 yr UAL320 CAP/FO: $133/$91
12 yr JBLU320 CAP/FO: $147/$87

And that's not counting hours over 70 paid at 150% at JBLU.

Are you sure you're not pulling down the industry UALdriver?

Let's see if I have this correctly Hair....

United had industry leading wages until the likes of Southwest, Jetblue, and Airtran come around (no knock on those pilots) who paid low wages, NO pension, 5 leg days, etc. etc.

Management takes them into BK because of Mgmt. stupidity or maybe having to compete with the same "Low-cost" employee model. Irregardless, in order to keep their jobs, the UAL folks (and others, me included) get handed a steaming pile of contract reeking of the low-cost model you introduced and accepted.....no pensions, low wages, better "efficiency", just to compete and keep food on the table.....they capitulate........the end result, you tagging THEM as pulling down the industry???

Get with it man, the next VA or flyGreen or whoever floats down the trough will then undercut you and make you "high-cost" and the downward spiral will continue.........

BTW, I am all for the above listed airlines negotiating their pay up, more power to them, as a whole, we can bargain UP for a change.....

 

[Mr.B]

Let's see if I have this correctly Hair....



Management takes them into BK because of Mgmt. stupidity or maybe having to compete with the same "Low-cost" employee model. Irregardless, in order to keep their jobs, the UAL folks (and others, me included) get handed a steaming pile of contract reeking of the low-cost model you introduced and accepted.....no pensions, low wages, better "efficiency", just to compete and keep food on the table.....they capitulate........the end result, you tagging THEM as pulling down the industry???

This about sums it up for todays airline pilot. And to take it one step further, as one who is at the bottom of a "major" seniority list, I'm sick of hearing the more senior pukes who feel a more junior pilot should not try to improve his career by jumping over to VA. The junior puke should languish at the bottom and continue to provide QOL for a senior guy? Face it, the "majors" are not going anywhere....read stagnant...and upward mobility on the seniority list is a pipe dream.

I say go to VA, roll the dice, do a good job, and upgrade fast.

Or, sit as reserve F/O and get some crumbs....maybe. Oh, and don't commute.

 

[bluejuice787]

Irregardless, ...

I am silenced by your linguistical prowess.

Juice

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I am silenced by your linguistical prowess.

Juice

You missed capitulate.......

 

[bluejuice787]

You missed capitulate.......

you simply missed.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

you simply missed.

missed what?

 

[Mr.B]

missed what?

What he means is.....try looking up "irregardless".

Reminds me of George Carlins "people who get wordy in order to lend themselves an air of importance" routine. He uses the airline industry as an example. Funny and oh so true.

 

[PCL_128]

According to airlinpilotpay.com,
6th year VA A-320 F/O: $72
6th year UAL A320 F/O: $82

Seems fairly similar to me.

You think a 14% difference in pay is similar? With soft pay credits, that $10 difference is worth about $11,000 a year at most places. Doesn't seem very similar to me.

AirlinePilotCentral lists VA as having 105 pilots. If they're paying each pilot $11,000 less than their counterpart at UAL, then that saves VA $1.15 million a year just in pilot labor costs. For such a small airline, that's a big pile of cash.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

What he means is.....try looking up "irregardless".

Reminds me of George Carlins "people who get wordy in order to lend themselves an air of importance" routine. He uses the airline industry as an example. Funny and oh so true.

Ok tool......let's play the definition game.

ir·re·gard·less (
[I]adv.[/I] [I]Nonstandard[/I] Regardless.

[Probably blend of [B]irrespective[/B] and [B]regardless[/B].]
[B][I]Usage Note: [/I][/B][I]Irregardless[/I] is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of [I]irrespective[/I] and [I]regardless[/I] and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative [I]ir-[/I] prefix and [I]-less[/I] suffix in a single term.

EQUALS

[B][SIZE=3]ir·re·spec·tive[/SIZE][/B] ([IMG][I]adj.[/I] [I]Archaic[/I] Characterized by disregard; heedless.
[B][SIZE=3]re·gard·less[/SIZE][/B][IMG] [I]adv.[/I] In spite of everything; anyway

Put THAT into context and you will see the point.....when you are done teaching the SAT test, maybe you can bring something relevant to the thread.

 

[curtis46]

I'm trying to get in touch with an old friend Steeve H captain at VA,if anyone who knows him could send me a pm,i would appreciate

 

[DashTrash400]

I am silenced by your linguistical prowess.

Juice

As long as we're on the 2nd big thread creep/pissing match, try looking up "linguistical."

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Well, I see the big fork sticking in this thread...

We don't go many places yet, but if you want a ride stop on by. CASS folks get access to the two up front and any open in coach. Non CASS can still get on in the back. We greatly appreciate any return favors.

Ralph out...

 

[Noserider76]

And
12 yr UAL320 CAP/FO: $133/$91
12 yr JBLU320 CAP/FO: $147/$87

And that's not counting hours over 70 paid at 150% at JBLU.

Are you sure you're not pulling down the industry UALdriver?

How many 12 year captains at Jet Blue? It's easy to put something down on paper that you don't have to pay for another 5 years. Anyway that payscale is about $100/hr less than a job with that much responsibility should pay, and has paid.

The reality is that as long as we let startups or whoever come in with ultralow payscales there is always going to be downward pressure on wages. Look at the amount of cash left on the table in the contract losses at UA, DL, AA, NW, and others. This career used to provide an outstanding living. These contract losses are due, in large part, to pressure from lower cost, lower wage carriers.

What we need is an association that regulates the flow of pilots into the industry and sets payscales. Unless that happens, if you're on top, put yourself into the breach, you're next.

 

[bluejuice787]

As long as we're on the 2nd big thread creep/pissing match, try looking up "linguistical."

linguist
1. Someone who speaks several languages or finds it easy to learn languages.
2. Someone who studies linguistics.
linguistic, linguistical, linguistically
1. Of or pertaining to language or the knowledge or study of languages.
2. Relating to linguistics, or to the affinities of languages.
linguistics
The science of language, especially of the elements, modifications, and structural and relativistic aspects of units of speech; or the study of a particular language. Speakers of English may say, "What is his native tongue?" meaning language, and those who spoke Latin used lingua with the same figurative application. A linguist, then, is thought to be someone who speaks several languages fluently and is also known as a polyglot, literally, "many tongues".
Usually, when this person was bilingual; the next step probably was to be trilingual or even multilingual. From these stages of language development, we know that this person has learned diction, wording styles, idioms, phrasing, and vocabulary; as well as slang, jargon, and dialect because that is what linguistics is all about.

Juice

 

[EMB170Pilot]

My dog took a huge sh!t in my neighbors yard today. He's out of town.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

linguist
1. Someone who speaks several languages or finds it easy to learn languages.
2. Someone who studies linguistics.
linguistic, linguistical, linguistically
1. Of or pertaining to language or the knowledge or study of languages.
2. Relating to linguistics, or to the affinities of languages.
linguistics
The science of language, especially of the elements, modifications, and structural and relativistic aspects of units of speech; or the study of a particular language. Speakers of English may say, "What is his native tongue?" meaning language, and those who spoke Latin used lingua with the same figurative application. A linguist, then, is thought to be someone who speaks several languages fluently and is also known as a polyglot, literally, "many tongues".
Usually, when this person was bilingual; the next step probably was to be trilingual or even multilingual. From these stages of language development, we know that this person has learned diction, wording styles, idioms, phrasing, and vocabulary; as well as slang, jargon, and dialect because that is what linguistics is all about.

Juice

I have been accused of being a "cunning linguist"....lol

 

[DashTrash400]

lin·guis·ti·cal Pronunciation[ling-gwis-ti-kuh'l]

–adjective (not in technical use) linguistic.

It's the basic equivalent of irregardless. Acceptable for the common joe, utterly unacceptable for those who throw stones at others for improper usage of the language.

 

[viking737]

Quote:
Originally Posted by viking737
I will not ask for a j/s on VA, nor will I accept a VA
pilot on my jumpseat (AA).

Oh that's the spirit Viking.......

So I guess since I work for a competitor (Delta), that means no jumpseat for me too?? That's all this guy is...a competitor....you seem to forget, we are all pilots, save your ammo for your contract fight.


Don't fault the guy for putting food on the table....he didn't scab, he didn't cross a line....Who knows, maybe he was one of the TWA guys you so kindly placed on the street......

end quote

Ok, I was a bit hasty there.
Although I don't agree with Branson starting another LCC I'll agree to keep the jumpseat out of it...
Everybody is welcome to ride (except scabs of course.