Safety of regionals

[Mike man]

At my last airline, FAA granted waivers for:

-green on green
-reduced IOE
-consolidation

Green on green must be, and only is, exempted for new equipment...i.e. the initial cadre.

What exactly was the reduced IOE schedule, and who was it waived for?

Plus what is consolidation?

 

[tyuwerty]

Reduced IOE is for pilots with a previous type on an aircraft in the same group.

Extension of the consolidation of skills requirement from 120 days to 150 days if the 100 hours was not completed in time. (might be 100 days to 130) I can't really remember and don't feel like looking it up.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

if the airlines say the min times are 2500 or 3000 hours for an upgrade thats fine lets leave them there, and cancel flights as nessasary for lack of crews. Shouldn't we hold the safety standards that we have. Instead of lowering the for economic reasons

Hey, pull your head out of the sand!

 

[belchfire]

It's only a matter of time before some green FO gets one of these RJ's so far outta whack that Chuck Yeager would have a hard time getting it back...it happened to crews that were highly experienced when jets were new. Now we have relatively inexperienced pilots going from Senecas to RJ's. It's a simular scenario.

 

[Papps]

Hey, pull your head out of the sand!

I see where your going with that, but a 1500 hour captain (where 500 or 1000 of that is piston single or twin time) pared with a 300 hour F/O (where 250 of that is piston single or twin time) is a bad idea. Im not a safety Nazi, but that seems bad.

 

[T-prop]

I see where your going with that, but a 1500 hour captain (where 500 or 1000 of that is piston single or twin time) pared with a 300 hour F/O (where 250 of that is piston single or twin time) is a bad idea. Im not a safety Nazi, but that seems bad.

I agree, 2500TT and/or 1000 crew/turbine should be the minimum for 121 Captain.

Mesa used to have a 2500 requirement. Along with other safety minded policies it quickly disappeared when staffing became an issue.

 

[T-prop]

At my last airline, FAA granted waivers for:

-green on green
-reduced IOE
-consolidation

FAA and company also approved a very reduced training program which consisted of:

- 8 days of systems (12 being the norm)
- 5 hrs of Cockpit Systems integration (16 being the norm)
- 7 sim sessions including checkride and LOFT (10 being the norm)

Other pertinent information:
- Chief Pilot was not typed in DHC8 and was completely and utterly useless when it came to operational and safety concerns regarding procedures.
- Company never before had operated the specific fleet type (DHC8-100).
- With few exceptions, all pilots were new-hires AND were new to DHC8
- Fleet averaged 40,000 hrs and were recently brought out of "retirement."
- No two aircraft were the same when it came to mods and other nuances
- Operated in the world's busiest airspace w/o FMS
- Contract Mx never received formal training on the fleet. (ex. lead mechanic did not know what an oil/fuel heat exchanger was). This contributed to numerous emergencies, and countless RTG's due to improper servicing and mx.
- Handful of street captains had no crew and/or turbine time.
- Company badgered ATP qualified new-hires into becoming captains. Many of which had never flown anything larger than a Seminole.

First flight off IOE first officer and Embry Riddle grad said to me, "Wow! this is the hardest IFR I have ever flown in."

It is amazing they haven't lost one yet... last flight is scheduled in Aug.

Oh, I forgot to add... we never received GPWS, TCAS, or any radar training. The newhire FO's will upgrade to CA without any formal training on any of those areas of operation. It was on the syllabus, but the instructor was limited on time.

I love Mesa logic. We are short of pilots so let's shorten the training to the legal minimum. Which only increases washout and re-train rate, not to mention cuts safety margins when the final products hit the line.

 

[CherryBomb]

Well in my humble opinion, I think the key to it all is PAY. These regionals just aren't gonna get experienced guys with any reasonable time with what they pay.

The fractionals haven't had too difficult a time filling classes with experienced pilots. This is because the fractionals actually pay a decent salary.

Picture a guy who has 2500 hours. Where do you go? To a regional and make 20k your first year, or a frac and make 45k your first year.


I guess you can call me Captain Obvious...

 

[doh]

Don't forget that along with the 401k match we have a 1% per year of service defined benefit pension, bonuses, and you get your days off right from the start. Nicer equipment too. There is no comparison in lifestyle.

 

[bluefishbeagle]

The only thing that will change things is smoking holes with passenger remains on national TV.

To the general public a pilot is a pilot is pilot and experience does not matter as long as they get a cheap ticket.

99% of them could care less if you ever get paid.

 

[ArcticFlier]

The only thing that will change things is smoking holes with passenger remains on national TV.

To the general public a pilot is a pilot is pilot and experience does not matter as long as they get a cheap ticket.

99% of them could care less if you ever get paid.

BAM!! Exactamundo..............

 

[bailey3083]

The NTSB will never cite "lack of experience" as a probable cause or even a casual factor. If the crew meets the minimums set by the FAA and the airline, it would be treated as any 20,000-hour crew having a wreck. Yes, folks, the regionals are in the armpit of aviation.

Dude lets go to 410!

NTSB did cite part of the problem was badly trained pilots and lack of experience.

Bailey

 

[Papps]

The only thing that will change things is smoking holes with passenger remains on national TV.

To the general public a pilot is a pilot is pilot and experience does not matter as long as they get a cheap ticket.

99% of them could care less if you ever get paid.

Yeah and if a lack of experience was the real killer in the accident, it will be sanitized by calling it "pilot error".

NTSB accidents are sanitized by saying something like

"the crew received adequate rest prior to departure" Translation, they had a maximum of 5 or 6 hours of sleep on a RR overnight, or a maximum of 3 or 4 hours on a CDO.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

The only thing that will change things is smoking holes with passenger remains on national TV.

To the general public a pilot is a pilot is pilot and experience does not matter as long as they get a cheap ticket.

99% of them could care less if you ever get paid.

Gotta disagree here. I think you should modify your statement to say the following:

The only thing that will get the public's attention is smoking holes on national TV, but even that won't change things. The American public has a very short memory, and thier "caring" is confined to bulleted items on the evening news.

No, I don't think even an accident would change much at all. In the end, the fact that you can travel from Ithaca to FLL for $179 RT is far more important than arriving technically alive. We have a society full of soccer moms (some of whom are quite hot, I might add) who drive SUVs full of kids 15 mph over the speed limit while chatting on there cellphones and sipping venti frappacinos with enough caffine to render a medium sized furry woodland creature dead. If the very tangible possibility of disaster here doesn't scare the public, then the abstract possibility of the pilots not having enough sleep or experience won't either.

The only things we can do as regional pilot's are:

1. Watch our own butts and don't die.

2. Don't let management push us around so we don't die.

3. Be a pain in the rump to our respective unions and tell them to change stuff so we don't die.

4. Oh yeah, and watch our own butts so we don't die... That's worth saying twice.

Safety culture is grassroots... It is only as good as the actions of the lowest man on the totem pole. Since airline management is never proactive, all change must begin with behavior changes at the lowest levels and work thier way up.

 

[deadstick]

Gotta disagree here. I think you should modify your statement to say the following:

The only thing that will get the public's attention is smoking holes on national TV, but even that won't change things. The American public has a very short memory, and thier "caring" is confined to bulleted items on the evening news.

No, I don't think even an accident would change much at all. In the end, the fact that you can travel from Ithaca to FLL for $179 RT is far more important than arriving technically alive. We have a society full of soccer moms (some of whom are quite hot, I might add) who drive SUVs full of kids 15 mph over the speed limit while chatting on there cellphones and sipping venti frappacinos with enough caffine to render a medium sized furry woodland creature dead. If the very tangible possibility of disaster here doesn't scare the public, then the abstract possibility of the pilots not having enough sleep or experience won't either.

The only things we can do as regional pilot's are:

1. Watch our own butts and don't die.

2. Don't let management push us around so we don't die.

3. Be a pain in the rump to our respective unions and tell them to change stuff so we don't die.

4. Oh yeah, and watch our own butts so we don't die... That's worth saying twice.

Safety culture is grassroots... It is only as good as the actions of the lowest man on the totem pole. Since airline management is never proactive, all change must begin with behavior changes at the lowest levels and work thier way up.

:laugh: How about those dolce, caffinated soccer moms! With an extra pump.

Seriously, just look at the fallout from the helo midair. Everybody is chatting about regulating ENG ops and adding a copilot. All it took was a crash with footage at 11.