172 = $127/hr!

[embpic1]

I know this is off topic but I thought I would ask this in the regionals forum because most of the new hires here might know the answer.

I was at a local airshow today and saw a display from the local FBO with a 172 on display. Just out of curiosity I went over to look at it. Wow! This 172 was all glass (like the Cirrus). When I asked how much it was an hour to rent I was told $127/hr. I just about fell over. I asked about a regular old steam gauge (lol) 172 price per hour. I was told about $118. YGTBSM!! That was more than the Travel air I got my multi in back in the 90's.

Here is the question:

I figured that if you did just the FAA mins to get your private, it would cost about $6000. How can new up and coming pilots afford this???? Then there is the instrument, commercial, multi licenses yet to go. Then there is the time building expenses. Are the kids coming into the regionals 50K in debt right off the bat?

I would think that with the airline industry in the toilet since 911 and this insane cost of getting your tickets and such that there is not alot of new blood coming.

Maybe this "Pilot shortage" is really coming.

 

[PCL_128]

I know what you mean. I went down to the local FBO here in ATL, and they want well over $100/hr for a little Diamand 4-seater without all the fancy flat-panels and such. Add the Honeywell screens and they want something like $150/hr. I remember renting a C-150 at the same airport back in the mid 90s for only $35/hr. I just can't afford to go rent a GA airplane to buzz around the local area anymore. I remember when we used to talk about the "$50 hamburger." Now it's more like the $200 hamburger.

 

[McNugget]

What's a "handburger"?

 

[acaTerry]

I remember the days of $28 for the plane and $8 for the CFI. My has it changed. And you think its bad now? Wait till user fees kick in...unless we all fight it off.

 

[PCL_128]

What's a "handburger"?

Corrected. It's late, give me a break.

 

[embpic1]

I just can't afford to go rent a GA airplane to buzz around the local area anymore.

I was thinking about getting checked out in a 172 to take the wife and kids for a ride. I figure that an hour check out and then an hour around the local area would cost about $300. Hell, thats almost enough to buy myself a new iphone.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Hello?!?!?! People????

Gas is not cheap! What do you expect? Yeah, that sucks, but what do you expect?

 

[Way2Broke]

Hello?!?!?! People????

Gas is not cheap! What do you expect? Yeah, that sucks, but what do you expect?

Its not gas so much as it is insurance.

 

[pa31capt]

A year or so ago when I instructed we had the first few Garmin 172's and they went for $140 an hour and you couldn't find time on the schedule to book them, we even had people trying to get their private in the 182 with the Garmin for $185 an hour because "they wanted to fly the glass" it seems that people are willing to pay for new planes. I dont understand it

 

[jmreii]

You are right, it is insurance. pilots running out of fuel, flying into weather conditions not qualified for, landing gear up. C-172 rented for 15.00 dollars an hour with fuel when I started flying.

 

[embpic1]

Hello?!?!?! People????

Gas is not cheap! What do you expect? Yeah, that sucks, but what do you expect?

Gas is about $4 a gallon. A 172 burns about 8 gph. Thats $32/hr. So thats $95/hr for the rest. I used to rent a 172 for $45/hr wet when gas was about $1.65 a gallon. That equates to $13/hr for gas leaving $32 for the rest. Thats an increase of about $63/hr just in non-fuel operating expenses in a about 13 years. That seems like alot to me.

Anyways, the original question was how do these new guys afford this in their quest to fly for the airlines?

 

[socrates1]

What happens when one of these kids goes through the fancy flight school with all glass single engine pistons and doesn't get placed into his new fancy RJ. They get into a ATR, SAAB, etc. Or for that matter they have to go fly like the rest of us did at a charter company, freight, etc. They will have no idea how to read "steam" instruments.

 

[Ifly4money]

But thankfully the mismanagment at the local FBO is looking out for you the consumer and still only paying $8 hr to the instructor.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Notice the fuel is higher... the aircraft is higher.........

But the instructor still gets about the same.....

We do it to ourselves.... Chasing the dream is expensive......

 

[Citrus531]

I know I struggled at first with the $$$ for the old 172's I trained on...and they were $108/hr...luckily i had saved some and then ended up borrowing some to finish out my stuff

A 2006 glass Archer my school just got rents for $175/hr....180hp...nice and expensive brand new..... like someone said..."they want the glass" and will pay for it

A multi out of PDK here in ATL rents for $243/hr @ one school....another is 212 and the cheapest is $200/hr

 

[dojetdriver]

Its not gas so much as it is insurance.

Weird isn't it? In the early-mid 90's there was the GA revitialization thing going on. An attempt to lower manufacturer liabilty insurance costs and stop the lawsuits that were kiling them and slowing aircraft production. I guess it worked somewhat pre-9/11.

Now that gas is so pricey, and insurance costs have shifted, GA could take another huge dive.

 

[siucavflight]

6K would be a bargain for a PVT, in Chicago most spend about 12K

 

[embpic1]

What happens when one of these kids goes through the fancy flight school with all glass single engine pistons and doesn't get placed into his new fancy RJ. They get into a ATR, SAAB, etc. Or for that matter they have to go fly like the rest of us did at a charter company, freight, etc. They will have no idea how to read "steam" instruments.

Thats a good point. I would think they would have a tough time with situational awareness without having that big map screen showing them exactly where they are.

 

[CFI2766]

Notice the fuel is higher... the aircraft is higher.........

But the instructor still gets about the same.....

We do it to ourselves.... Chasing the dream is expensive......

Spot on. Couldn't agree more. The monetary return on investment of a flying career just seems to get smaller and smaller. (Therefore, it is critical to me that our new contract contain acceptable COLA and SCOPE.) We do this to ourselves, collectively. Pathetic, but an hour long golf lesson will definately cost more than an hour long flight lesson.

However, when people complain about how much it costs to fly, I do my best to point out that everything costs more now than it did 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 minutes ago, for that matter. 10 years ago, how much did a loaf of bread cost? How about a six-pack of beer? It costs more now, that is the definition of inflation.

 

[A-Track]

Up here in MSP they have 172 with the steam gauges going for around $140 an hour. Then they want like $48 for an instructor. It's crazy I have to almost take out a small loan just to fly on the weekend. I know a lot of people are using the cirrus now for private training and that thing goes for $205 / hr. Would sure like to know what people do for a job to afford that thing.

 

[xkuzme1]

...

I live a mile from my local airport.

Prices:

VFR 150- $60
IFR 150- $65
VFR PA28 $70
IFR 172- $88


Instructor is $35

Prices are cheaper than most but it is still more expensive then when I learned.

www.rebelaviation.com

 

[MJG]

Wow, that is cheap!

To the original question: More and more I read that less and less individuals are able to afford flight training. At $140/hr for a basic C-172, is it any wonder why?

Big pilot shortage is just around the corner. Eventually this shortage will make it's way all the way up to the Majors. Those of us on the inside now will make lots of money but have a lousy quality of life. Those on the outside will be glad they decided to stay out.

FWIW, staffing is the worst I've seen it now in nine years at my carrier.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Stay out of NYC if you want good rates for any sort of training. Prices are through the roof and thats for old cessnas and pipers without any glass.

A private certificate at a part 61 will run easily around $12,000.

 

[Andrew_VT]

everything costs more now than it did 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 minutes ago, for that matter. 10 years ago, how much did a loaf of bread cost? How about a six-pack of beer? It costs more now, that is the definition of inflation.

Thats a poor excuse. What is inflation (consumer price index)? 3-4% a year?

Now lets look at embpic1's post. He said the 'non-fuel' rental costs went from $32 to $95 in 13 years.

Thats almost 23% a year!!!

That is not the definition of inflation...there are other forces in play here.

 

[BGSkyGuy]

What happens when one of these kids goes through the fancy flight school with all glass single engine pistons and doesn't get placed into his new fancy RJ. They get into a ATR, SAAB, etc. Or for that matter they have to go fly like the rest of us did at a charter company, freight, etc. They will have no idea how to read "steam" instruments.

I recently asked this question to a friend of mine who is a ground school instructor at a 4 year college in the midwest. They are going to all glass. He thinks it is absolutely ridiculous. It's all about the almighty $. If you don't have glass they will go somewhere that does. My first job out of CFIing was 135 in a C-310 and Baron. No glass in there. I would have been lost. And so will these new kids when the hiring slows up (which it will) and the only job they can get is staring at steam gauges.

 

[T-prop]

I laugh when I hear about airlines wanting user fees on GA.

They don't understand what they will have to pay to get pilots. No one can afford to learn how to fly at $180/hr and $50/landing.

They will choke off their "cheap" supply and will have to grow their own pilots.

If they think we're expensive now, just wait 'till they have to pay ALL of our training.

 

[J and E's Daddy]

I wouldn't be able to have afforded to get my ratings today if I didn't have them. This is one reason why their will be a bad shortage. Fewer and fewer are learning how to fly. Because people are getting smarter and no longer willing to invest thet type of money it costs to get a job and below poverty wages. And also to be looked down upon as nothing more than skilled labor. So, when these collective bargaining agreements are up, then we will be paid what we deserve.

 

[siucavflight]

I laugh when I hear about airlines wanting user fees on GA.

They don't understand what they will have to pay to get pilots. No one can afford to learn how to fly at $180/hr and $50/landing.

They will choke off their "cheap" supply and will have to grow their own pilots.

If they think we're expensive now, just wait 'till they have to pay ALL of our training.

They will start bringing in pilots from overseas, still cheap for them.

 

[topdawg]

Want to see a ripoff look up flightschoolhawaii.

 

[Gator1999]

The Cirrus is the biggest rip off around. I have a buddy of mine that instructs in one and when I told him that I was thinking of getting checked out in one I asked him what the process was. He told me that flight schools require a 10 FLIGHT hour training course. When asked at how much the plane costs per hour, he said $250! I just about fell over. Just to get the checkout costs $2500! WTFO!

He tried to justify the cost saying that it takes some time to get used to the "speed" of the aircraft and requires training to "stay ahead of the aircraft". What a bunch of crap!

Anyone else heard of flight school's running this scam?