XJ to NWA flow-new thread without the crap

[xjhawk]

I was just reading the brief rundown by our union on the flow to NWA. It has the pros and cons which take into account the NWA pilots, NWA and XJ growth. Its benifits can be rewarded to those who want the flow and the ones who do not, seem to get what they want by staying at XJ. My question is this. The line that says a pilot must meet NWA hiring mins. What are those? Is it a hours minimum? Four year degree? etc. Can anyone enlighten me on this.

Oh and by the way, it seems this is a great example of two MEC's working together and taking into account the company's needs for growth. The pilots who are scared of a huge flow back should not be worried, that provision that says only the number which flowed up can flow down, thats amazing that is in there. Oh and I can see how this will be a great incentive for XJ hiring.

 

[123]

From the NWA website:

Northwest Airlines Pilot Hiring Update


Northwest Airlines is not currently hiring pilots or accepting resumes/applications at this time.
Furlough/Recall Update (as of June 30, 2007)
There are currently 385 pilots on furlough (and we anticipate recalling pilots through the end of 2007).
Hiring Update (as of June 30, 2007)
We anticipate a potential New Hire Class in the next 6-12 months.
NWA Human Resources/Flight Operations are reviewing the pilot hiring processes and pilot hiring minimums/qualifications at this time. For monthly updates, please watch this website.

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

You're right XJ, it seems that the protections for those who want to stay and those who want to go have been pretty well thought out...I'm curious too though about "minimums" and "requirements"...it seems that in actuality this is more of a preferential hiring agreement...the only thing I can see that differs from being hired "off the street" is that there's no interview? Is that what you guys are reading as well?

 

[Jmoney]

No Crap?

How can we have any conversation about Northwest and leave out the crap? That place is the crappiest of all crappy airlines that have ever crapped their way out of crapville. Northwest puts the very stink in crap itself......

-Crap, Crap!

 

[FOrever85]

I thought Mesaba was the only airline in crapville. We usually are.

 

[PCL_128]

The pilots who are scared of a huge flow back should not be worried, that provision that says only the number which flowed up can flow down, thats amazing that is in there.

Wow. Kudos to the NWA MEC for negotiating such a fair agreement. Hopefully this will become the foundation for other MECs to build their own flowthroughs or family scope upon.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow. Kudos to the NWA MEC for negotiating such a fair agreement. Hopefully this will become the foundation for other MECs to build their own flowthroughs or family scope upon.

I think I am going to tear up..... this is so great.... Never mind that the whole Compass agreement set everyone back........... Never mind that the NWA scope language specifically excluded Mesaba and PCL from getting growth.... Kumbaya....Kumbaya.....

The problems still exists people....Two tiers of flying with multiple parties competing for said flying.... That problems hasn't been solved...... Quit high 5ing each other and get back to work......

 

[DoinTime]

The pilots who are scared of a huge flow back should not be worried, that provision that says only the number which flowed up can flow down, thats amazing that is in there.

Except that after a number of years have passed and hundreds of pilots "flowed up" to mainline. Now you have several hundred "flow backs" to displace most of your captains.

The only fair way to meter flow up/flow back is to only allow flow back into available vacancies so nobody gets displaced. After all nobody from XJ will ever displace anyone at Mainline. Why should the reverse ever happen?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why does a "flow up" go to the bottom, while a "flow back" goes to the top? Double standard?

I don't mind going to the bottom, as long as there is a "quid pro".....they should go to the bottom also.....

 

[PCL_128]

I think I am going to tear up..... this is so great.... Never mind that the whole Compass agreement set everyone back........... Never mind that the NWA scope language specifically excluded Mesaba and PCL from getting growth.... Kumbaya....Kumbaya.....

The current MEC wasn't responsible for those actions. In fact, the current MEC Vice-Chair and EVP for NWA was the guy out there telling people to vote no when he was the Council 20 (DTW) Captain Rep. Don't blame the current MEC for the sins of the last.

The problems still exists people....Two tiers of flying with multiple parties competing for said flying.... That problems hasn't been solved...... Quit high 5ing each other and get back to work......

Everything doesn't happen all at once, Joe. One step at a time. This is a step in the right direction, it's not the end of the journey.

 

[PCL_128]

Except that after a number of years have passed and hundreds of pilots "flowed up" to mainline. Now you have several hundred "flow backs" to displace most of your captains.

Everything comes with a price. Those Captains that could get displaced will also benefit from the flowthrough, and probably upgrade quicker in the first place due to pilots flowing up. Why do regional pilots believe they should get everything for nothing? Why should the NWA pilots use their negotiating capital to achieve a flow-up for the XJ pilots and not receive any furlough protection in return? Be reasonable.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The current MEC wasn't responsible for those actions. In fact, the current MEC Vice-Chair and EVP for NWA was the guy out there telling people to vote no when he was the Council 20 (DTW) Captain Rep. Don't blame the current MEC for the sins of the last.



Everything doesn't happen all at once, Joe. One step at a time. This is a step in the right direction, it's not the end of the journey.

Blah Blah Blah...... the first ALPA scope committee was in 1995..... 12 years and we aren't any closer to a solution...... I'm not waiting another 12 years for your next step.... Enough excuses...... get it done.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Everything comes with a price. Those Captains that could get displaced will also benefit from the flowthrough, and probably upgrade quicker in the first place due to pilots flowing up. Why do regional pilots believe they should get everything for nothing? Why should the NWA pilots use their negotiating capital to achieve a flow-up for the XJ pilots and not receive any furlough protection in return? Be reasonable.

Why do mainline pilots think they can come in at the top, while I should go to the bottom? Get real....

 

[PCL_128]

Blah Blah Blah...... the first ALPA scope committee was in 1995..... 12 years and we aren't any closer to a solution...... I'm not waiting another 12 years for your next step.... Enough excuses...... get it done.....

I don't suppose that 9/11 and the ill-will created by your RJDC might have had anything to do with that slow progress, huh? Spin it all you want, Joe, but this development is movement in the right direction.

 

[PCL_128]

Why do mainline pilots think they can come in at the top, while I should go to the bottom? Get real....

Like I said, nothing comes free in this life. If the XJ pilot group wants the opportunity provided by a flowthrough, they need to decide whether the risk associated with a flow-back is worth it. The majority of the pilots will decide. I know you hate the concept of "majority rules," Joe, but that's the fair system. The Mesaba pilots will balance the pros and cons, and I suspect that they'll decide that the pros far outweigh the cons.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't suppose that 9/11 and the ill-will created by your RJDC might have had anything to do with that slow progress, huh? Spin it all you want, Joe, but this development is movement in the right direction.

Let's see, RJDC lawsuit and 911 where 6 years after the first ALPA scope committee..... RJDC was a reaction, not a cause...... nice try....

Besides, what would RJDC have to do with the poster children for "brand scope"..... McClain, Wychor, and Woerth didn't have anything to do with RJDC, so why couldn't they do anything?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Like I said, nothing comes free in this life. If the XJ pilot group wants the opportunity provided by a flowthrough, they need to decide whether the risk associated with a flow-back is worth it. The majority of the pilots will decide. I know you hate the concept of "majority rules," Joe, but that's the fair system. The Mesaba pilots will balance the pros and cons, and I suspect that they'll decide that the pros far outweigh the cons.

It continues the "master/apprentice" relationship which is part of our problem. Regional pilots buy off on the BS.....

A flowthrough isn't anything you can't get by simply applying and moving on, but it is treated as some great deal..... the only "great deal" is the furloughed mainline pilot who comes in at the top....

 

[PCL_128]

Let's see, RJDC lawsuit and 911 where 6 years after the first ALPA scope committee..... RJDC was a reaction, not a cause...... nice try....

The first scope committee didn't have a charter to study flowthroughs, single lists, etc... The BSIC was the first committee that dealt with those issues, and the BSIC didn't have much time to deal with them before all hell broke lose in the industry. The scope committee you speak of was more of a scope "study" committee, much like each MEC has a Contract Study Committee leading up to contract negotiations. The purpose of that committee wasn't related to "family scope" at all. Family scope was a concept championed by Captain Woerth years later. Now that the morons have kicked him out and installed Darth Prater, I don't expect much progress at National on that front. He's too concerned with supplying the senior mainline pilots with a huge windfall via Age-65.

Besides, what would RJDC have to do with the poster children for "brand scope"..... McClain, Wychor, and Woerth didn't have anything to do with RJDC, so why couldn't they do anything?

First of all, McClain was hardly a "poster child" for anything other than his own self-interest. Hence the reason that he is no longer in a leadership position and was replaced by the current NWA MEC members that brought us this new proposal. As for Captains Woerth and Wychor, they've been a little bit busy for the past 6 years with bankruptcys and other issues.

 

[PCL_128]

A flowthrough isn't anything you can't get by simply applying and moving on, but it is treated as some great deal..... the only "great deal" is the furloughed mainline pilot who comes in at the top....

I suspect that a vast majority of regional pilots would disagree with you on that. Most regional pilots would at least like the option of flowing through as a fail-safe if their efforts to move on otherwise are unsuccessful. And I don't think anyone who is furloughed can be said to have received a "great deal."

 

[DoinTime]

Everything comes with a price. Those Captains that could get displaced will also benefit from the flowthrough, and probably upgrade quicker in the first place due to pilots flowing up. Why do regional pilots believe they should get everything for nothing? Why should the NWA pilots use their negotiating capital to achieve a flow-up for the XJ pilots and not receive any furlough protection in return?

I think if you look around at the industry's flow programs the effect is that it slows upgrade opportunity because it ties attrition to the hiring of the major partner. You are right in that the NWA pilots shouldn't be using negotiating capital to secure this deal which leads me to believe that it was offered by NWA management free of charge. NWALPA has never spent a dime on fostering a good relationship with their regional partners, in fact its been just the contrary.

Be reasonable

I think it is plenty reasonable for pilot groups to preserve the intergrity of their seniority list. Quid pro quo's should prevail in any agreement like this.

No flow up with seniority = no flow back with seniority
No flow up without a vacancy = no flow back without a vacancy


Historically speaking a flow agreements have never worked out for the regional partner in the long term. I see no reason why this will work any different. The current pilots who will get a vote on this issue will probably see some benefits from this program but the pilots who make up Mesaba 6-7 years from now will be taking it in the a$$.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think if you look around at the industry's flow programs the effect is that it slows upgrade opportunity because it ties attrition to the hiring of the major partner. You are right in that the NWA pilots shouldn't be using negotiating capital to secure this deal which leads me to believe that it was offered by NWA management free of charge. NWALPA has never spent a dime on fostering a good relationship with their regional partners, in fact its been just the contrary.




I think it is plenty reasonable for pilot groups to preserve the intergrity of their seniority list. Quid pro quo's should prevail in any agreement like this.

No flow up with seniority = no flow back with seniority
No flow up without a vacancy = no flow back without a vacancy


Historically speaking a flow agreements have never worked out for the regional partner in the long term. I see no reason why this will work any different. The current pilots who will get a vote on this issue will probably see some benefits from this program but the pilots who make up Mesaba 6-7 years from now will be taking it in the a$$.

BINGO !

 

[SplitBar]

Never mind that the NWA scope language specifically excluded Mesaba and PCL from getting growth.... Kumbaya....Kumbaya.....

Yeah, too bad Mesaba will never grow. The training center is like a ghost town these days...I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they close it down since we will never grow.

 

[norskman2]

Historically speaking a flow agreements have never worked out for the regional partner in the long term.

An excellent point. Can anyone name a flowthrough/flowback agreement that benefited the regionals and its pilots?

AMR - No
CAL - No
USAirways - No

Remember, the airline industry is highly cyclical and once a decade hits a major downturn that usually results in massive flowbacks.

70s - Arab oil embargo
80s - recession
90s - Gulf War I
2000s - Gulf War II

It's been like clockwork once every ten years and remember the negative effects of the furloughs/flowbacks linger for YEARS.

 

[PCL_128]

NWALPA has never spent a dime on fostering a good relationship with their regional partners, in fact its been just the contrary.

You've been listening to WG too much. He was never able to foster a good relationship with the NWA MEC because he never wanted to. Captain Wychor has always had an excellent relationship and continues to do so because he's put the effort in and kept the lines of communication open.

 

[PCL_128]

An excellent point. Can anyone name a flowthrough/flowback agreement that benefited the regionals and its pilots?

AMR - No
CAL - No
USAirways - No

USAir has never had a flowthrough agreement with their feeder airlines. AMR's flowthrough wasn't exactly great, but I blame the APA's arrogance for that. They refused to create a fair system. CAL's flowthrough actually did work out well for the pilots. The flowbacks were short lived, and there were a lot of pilots that flowed from CoEx to CAL. The first several newhire classes after CAL started hiring a couple of years ago were practically all flowthroughs.

 

[saabservant]

I believe that flowbacks will come onto the MSA list BELOW those who decide to stay at MSA for the duration ("Rights" pilots).

This would be good for the senior folks who don't want to start over, bad for the junior fo who, not willing to commit to MSA for the career, may get pushed out of a Capt. position should NWA flow back.

But really, folks, how many NWA furloughs would WANT to flow back? Very few, if the most recent experience applies. They won't want the massive paycut, and crappier schedules.
They will do their "other" dream jobs, or stay home with the kids, while sugar mamma works...
Flowbacks are not a substantial issue, beyond protection for the most senior pilots who want to stay at MSA....IMHO

 

[Schwanker]

excluding growth???

Never mind that the NWA scope language specifically excluded Mesaba and PCL from getting growth.... quote]

Joe,
Can you enlighten me on how we excluded growth at Mesaba and PCL? As far as I can tell, NWA scope only limits 76 seaters--and that's on all feeders.

MSA can still fly unlimited Saabs as always. NWA scope didn't for them to sell the Avro's. If anything, NWA scope has relaxed to allow MSA to fly a limited number of 76 seaters as well unlimited Q400s if they wish.

PCL can still fly unlimited CRJ 440s as always. Now they can also fly unlmited CRJ 200s in addition adding 6 seats. Plus NOW they can fly a limited number of 76 seaters and unlimited Q400s if they desire.

So I ask again, what's new to NWA scope that wasn't there before?
Thanks,
Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

Why do mainline pilots think they can come in at the top, while I should go to the bottom? Get real....

The jets come with strings attached. Remember, this flying belonged to mainline. Mainline agreed to give some of it up with conditions. These are the conditions. The choice to your MEC is take it or leave it. If I were at MSA, I'd prefer to have the 900s on property with attached strings vs. the jets going to Compass or elsewhere. Now it's up to you, via your MEC, to decide. The 1st 36 jets may be handled differently than the rest as the original contract stated. I'm not sure.

FYI...I will not accept a flowback if ever furloughed.
Best,
Schwanker

 

[DoinTime]

But really, folks, how many NWA furloughs would WANT to flow back? Very few, if the most recent experience applies. They won't want the massive paycut, and crappier schedules.
They will do their "other" dream jobs, or stay home with the kids, while sugar mamma works...
Flowbacks are not a substantial issue, beyond protection for the most senior pilots who want to stay at MSA....IMHO

Ask the hundreds of Continental pilots that flowed back to CoEx or the hundreds of American pilots that flowed back to Eagle.

Look at the payscales invovled with NWA vs. XJ right now. If you are furlough fodder at NWA (i.e. less than a three year FO) you will get a pay raise by flowing back into a CA spot at XJ.

 

[DoinTime]

Joe,
Can you enlighten me on how we excluded growth at Mesaba and PCL? As far as I can tell, NWA scope only limits 76 seaters--and that's on all feeders.

I believe what Joe was refering to was language in the bridge agreement that provided an incentive for NWA to seek 50-seat lift outside of PCL or XJ.