XJ to NWA flow-new thread without the crap

[PCL_128]

Except that after a number of years have passed and hundreds of pilots "flowed up" to mainline. Now you have several hundred "flow backs" to displace most of your captains.

Everything comes with a price. Those Captains that could get displaced will also benefit from the flowthrough, and probably upgrade quicker in the first place due to pilots flowing up. Why do regional pilots believe they should get everything for nothing? Why should the NWA pilots use their negotiating capital to achieve a flow-up for the XJ pilots and not receive any furlough protection in return? Be reasonable.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The current MEC wasn't responsible for those actions. In fact, the current MEC Vice-Chair and EVP for NWA was the guy out there telling people to vote no when he was the Council 20 (DTW) Captain Rep. Don't blame the current MEC for the sins of the last.



Everything doesn't happen all at once, Joe. One step at a time. This is a step in the right direction, it's not the end of the journey.

Blah Blah Blah...... the first ALPA scope committee was in 1995..... 12 years and we aren't any closer to a solution...... I'm not waiting another 12 years for your next step.... Enough excuses...... get it done.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Everything comes with a price. Those Captains that could get displaced will also benefit from the flowthrough, and probably upgrade quicker in the first place due to pilots flowing up. Why do regional pilots believe they should get everything for nothing? Why should the NWA pilots use their negotiating capital to achieve a flow-up for the XJ pilots and not receive any furlough protection in return? Be reasonable.

Why do mainline pilots think they can come in at the top, while I should go to the bottom? Get real....

 

[PCL_128]

Blah Blah Blah...... the first ALPA scope committee was in 1995..... 12 years and we aren't any closer to a solution...... I'm not waiting another 12 years for your next step.... Enough excuses...... get it done.....

I don't suppose that 9/11 and the ill-will created by your RJDC might have had anything to do with that slow progress, huh? Spin it all you want, Joe, but this development is movement in the right direction.

 

[PCL_128]

Why do mainline pilots think they can come in at the top, while I should go to the bottom? Get real....

Like I said, nothing comes free in this life. If the XJ pilot group wants the opportunity provided by a flowthrough, they need to decide whether the risk associated with a flow-back is worth it. The majority of the pilots will decide. I know you hate the concept of "majority rules," Joe, but that's the fair system. The Mesaba pilots will balance the pros and cons, and I suspect that they'll decide that the pros far outweigh the cons.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't suppose that 9/11 and the ill-will created by your RJDC might have had anything to do with that slow progress, huh? Spin it all you want, Joe, but this development is movement in the right direction.

Let's see, RJDC lawsuit and 911 where 6 years after the first ALPA scope committee..... RJDC was a reaction, not a cause...... nice try....

Besides, what would RJDC have to do with the poster children for "brand scope"..... McClain, Wychor, and Woerth didn't have anything to do with RJDC, so why couldn't they do anything?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Like I said, nothing comes free in this life. If the XJ pilot group wants the opportunity provided by a flowthrough, they need to decide whether the risk associated with a flow-back is worth it. The majority of the pilots will decide. I know you hate the concept of "majority rules," Joe, but that's the fair system. The Mesaba pilots will balance the pros and cons, and I suspect that they'll decide that the pros far outweigh the cons.

It continues the "master/apprentice" relationship which is part of our problem. Regional pilots buy off on the BS.....

A flowthrough isn't anything you can't get by simply applying and moving on, but it is treated as some great deal..... the only "great deal" is the furloughed mainline pilot who comes in at the top....

 

[PCL_128]

Let's see, RJDC lawsuit and 911 where 6 years after the first ALPA scope committee..... RJDC was a reaction, not a cause...... nice try....

The first scope committee didn't have a charter to study flowthroughs, single lists, etc... The BSIC was the first committee that dealt with those issues, and the BSIC didn't have much time to deal with them before all hell broke lose in the industry. The scope committee you speak of was more of a scope "study" committee, much like each MEC has a Contract Study Committee leading up to contract negotiations. The purpose of that committee wasn't related to "family scope" at all. Family scope was a concept championed by Captain Woerth years later. Now that the morons have kicked him out and installed Darth Prater, I don't expect much progress at National on that front. He's too concerned with supplying the senior mainline pilots with a huge windfall via Age-65.

Besides, what would RJDC have to do with the poster children for "brand scope"..... McClain, Wychor, and Woerth didn't have anything to do with RJDC, so why couldn't they do anything?

First of all, McClain was hardly a "poster child" for anything other than his own self-interest. Hence the reason that he is no longer in a leadership position and was replaced by the current NWA MEC members that brought us this new proposal. As for Captains Woerth and Wychor, they've been a little bit busy for the past 6 years with bankruptcys and other issues.

 

[PCL_128]

A flowthrough isn't anything you can't get by simply applying and moving on, but it is treated as some great deal..... the only "great deal" is the furloughed mainline pilot who comes in at the top....

I suspect that a vast majority of regional pilots would disagree with you on that. Most regional pilots would at least like the option of flowing through as a fail-safe if their efforts to move on otherwise are unsuccessful. And I don't think anyone who is furloughed can be said to have received a "great deal."

 

[DoinTime]

Everything comes with a price. Those Captains that could get displaced will also benefit from the flowthrough, and probably upgrade quicker in the first place due to pilots flowing up. Why do regional pilots believe they should get everything for nothing? Why should the NWA pilots use their negotiating capital to achieve a flow-up for the XJ pilots and not receive any furlough protection in return?

I think if you look around at the industry's flow programs the effect is that it slows upgrade opportunity because it ties attrition to the hiring of the major partner. You are right in that the NWA pilots shouldn't be using negotiating capital to secure this deal which leads me to believe that it was offered by NWA management free of charge. NWALPA has never spent a dime on fostering a good relationship with their regional partners, in fact its been just the contrary.

Be reasonable

I think it is plenty reasonable for pilot groups to preserve the intergrity of their seniority list. Quid pro quo's should prevail in any agreement like this.

No flow up with seniority = no flow back with seniority
No flow up without a vacancy = no flow back without a vacancy


Historically speaking a flow agreements have never worked out for the regional partner in the long term. I see no reason why this will work any different. The current pilots who will get a vote on this issue will probably see some benefits from this program but the pilots who make up Mesaba 6-7 years from now will be taking it in the a$$.