Upgrade times

[siucavflight]

Reading the thread on the SKW CA time dropping to 13 months, and then reading the responses really got me thinking. And I was wondering, what do you think is the right amount of time to upgrade and why?

 

[Tarzan]

Depends on how much time you have in an 121 environment. But I'll say two years. You get the see the seasons change at least twice. Watch your CA taxi around crazy places like ORD. See how to get things fixed when it comes to maintainence, what procedures to follow to keep your butt out of a crack... Etc, etc.

Finally the big one... Watching the 250 hour wonder to keep them form sticking the plane in the dirt.

 

[Superpilot92]

Been with XJT for just over 2 years and i am just finishing upgrade. I think 2 years was a good number to where I feel Comfortable. Could i have done it sooner if i could have? Sure, but I probably wouldnt have felt as confident now had i upgraded at the 1 year mark. However i am also not the type to sit and stare out the window the whole time as an FO, i tried to stay involved as much as possible. That's the key, dont be a Lazy FO and expect to upgrade quick and it to be easy. Just my 2 pennies worth.

 

[Alchemy]

You need at least one winter season where you see some hard icing and a lot of deicing procedures. You also need at least one good summer season where you see thunderstorms and become proficient in using all your resources to avoid t-storms. You also need to experience situations where you should delay departures for the sake of safety, or where you have to put your foot down and say "no" when ATC or other circumstances try to force you into an unsafe situation.

If your airline flies into mountainous terrain you should also make it a point to fly into the most challenging airports at least once from the right seat so you can see the correct way to handle it. Ideally you should also experince a flight where an emergency was decleared at least once before you upgrade too.

These things just can't be taught in ground school or the simulator all that well; you really have to experience them in person otherwise you're going to look a little foolish when you get up there and try them for the first time as the guy in charge.

Those are my arbirtrary criteria, and 12-18 months is usually enough time to experience these things. The onus is partially on the individual first officer to make sure they experience all this stuff rather than "bidding around" trips where they're going to get hard icing or a lot of mountainous terrain.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I agree that 12 to 18 months in the industry is important. FWIW, a lot of the skywest upgrades came from other airlines and have more than a year in.

I also think it should be an hours requirement. 2500-3500 hours, most of it part 121 time, seems to be a standard for insurance, and is a good gauge of someone with refined piloting judgement.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I like Alchemy's description and would only add that you need to realize that as a Captain there are two Certificates that make that airplane fly. Yours and the Company's. The Company will do any thing they have to do to protect their Certificate include throwing your overpaid keester under the bus. So when it comes to questionable scheduling, dispatching (incl. NOTAM dissemination), fatigue (of you or your crew), maintenance, or weather, YOU are responsible for the safety of the passengers and the airworthiness of the aircraft. It does not matter who commits the error, or how it occurred, you, the Captain is the final guarantee of airworthiness and the safety of the flight operation.

If a passenger is injured for any reason, it is supposed to be reportable. Often injuries are not reported, but regardless of how it happens, you are responsible. I've seen POI's at other airlines hand out Certificate suspensions for passenger / crew injuries due to turbulence with the seat belt sign on. Fair? I don't know. The FAA POI's point of view is that the Captain failed to obtain pilot reports of moderate turbulence (and there were two severe reports that day). The FAA felt the Captain should have avoided the dispatched route, or not operated the flight.

At Delta they stress "Safety, Customer Service and Efficiency." It is an excellent motto. Use it as your go/no go filter and you will best serve yourself, your passengers and your Company. Do everything you can for your customers and your Company, but always put safety first.

Remember you can delegate authority, you can not delegate responsibility. As a Captain you are more accountable than a Doctor, a Lawyer, or even the President of the United States. Enjoy the job, but know what comes with it.

Here is a very interesting article to ponder - what would you do as Captain?
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...0507p2.xml&headline=Airbus Overrun in Toronto

Notice that the real indication things were going wrong was a visual cue which is not included in the 5 indications of wind shear we all learn at the schoolhouse. The reported gust factors were only 5 to 9 knots, yet the aircraft could not get stopped and went off the runway at around 91 miles per hour. On line you learn that the "wall" of debris, or rain, is what to watch for, but the time you get the 15+ knot gust you either in shear, or it is simply a wind gust that does not matter. The First Officer was flying and we can assument the computer had the airplane on profile when the autopilot got disarmed at 350 feet AGL. That is 24 seconds from "normal" to "unreccoverable." So Captain, you have probably about 10 to 12 seconds to make a decision which either results in a diversion that could cost more than a quarter of a million dollars, or result in a safe landing, or result in injuries and the total loss of a $150 million dollar jet.

Also, the CRJ200's approach speeds are higher than the A330. Interesting stuff to ponder while sitting on reserve, which many of us Captains do frequently

 

[Superpilot92]

I agree that 12 to 18 months in the industry is important. FWIW, a lot of the skywest upgrades came from other airlines and have more than a year in.

I also think it should be an hours requirement. 2500-3500 hours, most of it part 121 time, seems to be a standard for insurance, and is a good gauge of someone with refined piloting judgement.

XJT has only a ATP min for Upgrade, However most have well above that when upgrading.

 

[30West]

Having done around 50 or so captain upgrades in the simulator and probably just as many IOE's with new PIC's I can say that right around the two year mark training difficulties drop off significantly, mostly due to one reason: experience.

I can tell after one upgrade sim and ground training session which FO's used their right seat time productively and which one's were merely along for the ride.

 

[LearLove]

First idealy I'd say newhires (to the right seat) should have 1500-2000tt and an ATP with a year instructing/traffic/pipeline ect. and a year 135.

Then 2 years in the right seat 121 to upgrade (seeing to full seasons online). This would put your new 121 CA's at 3000-3500tt, and ATP going into the upgrade and some previous command time from the 135.

 

[Shrek]

XJT has only a ATP min for Upgrade, However most have well above that when upgrading.

I just want to see Superpilot92 post more..........one of the BEST avatars EVER......lol

 

[Grey Ghost]

Yeah, but SKYW has a 13 month upgrade! uhhhhh! we're the best!!!!!!!!!!!!! uhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

 

[Minimaniac]

I further the two year suggestion. It seems to me that after about a year you begin to get bored, and begin to explore your books and airplane. After a year and a half you have had time to flip through the performance books, the MEL, the logbooks, and FOM. Now to fill your boredom you begin to ask your captains situational questions, helping you to make sense of what you have read. You also begin to thoughtfully analyze yuor captains' decision making and tell yourself what you like and don't like about how a situation went down. Finally, at about two years the average FO will finally feel confident enough about their knowledge and decisions to actually challenge a captain on something and be able to explain why. At two years, the FO is generally so bored that he has had enough time to contemplate a proper course of action for most every likely abnormal, and even a few more complex situations. When your brain starts operating at that level, I think you are ready to upgrade.
Oh, and make sure you have seen a lot of weather... quit bidding FL overnights and southeast ops if you are likely to get an ORD or LGA base for the winter when you upgrade. Have someone in the left seat there for your first time, because soon you are going to be calling the shots. And know what to do when you can't reach the company on ATL radio, because sometimes there just isn't time or room on the frequency.

 

[Superpilot92]

I just want to see Superpilot92 post more..........one of the BEST avatars EVER......lol

You Like It Huh?? :beer: :beer:

ENJOY

 

[DX Rick]

Being in the CRJ for 5 months now, I couldn't imagine accepting the offer to upgrade in 7 months.
I think 2-3 years is a good amount of time, depending how you spent your years as an FO.
I recently flew with a captain that was having troubles with taxiways on the airport diagram.
Note to self : Pay more attention and be more active as an FO than that guy did!

 

[J and E's Daddy]

Air Wisconsin= The most junior CA award right now, for a projected staffing date of 8/1/07 has a March 2004 hire date. So, AWAC is about 3 years and 4 months give or take, I am sure it will slow down even more as no growth and stagnation are still the norm at AWAC. Lots of pilots trying to leave, but many haven't much luck. I know alot have gotten the rejection letters from SWA.

 

[bobbyice]

I've been at SKW for almost 3 years now and I finally took the upgrade. I flew the turbo-prop out in SoCal for a year and a half, transitioned to the jet in ORD and now am based in ATL. I could have done it earlier, but I definitely wanted to get some experience under my belt. Plus, there was no way in hell that I was going to move to Sh*tcago. I go to class in two weeks.

 

[Starscream]

I'm at Eagle. I just wish I had to ponder stuff like this.

 

[JSky26]

I'm at Eagle. I just wish I had to ponder stuff like this.

lol.... The rumors aren't so true?

 

[Starscream]

Lol......my comment wasn't entirely serious. I'm just saying we're not rapid like some of the other places mentioned on this thread. The massive upgrades occuring now are no rumour. They're for real. After what seemed like an eternity of 10 upgrades per month, we're now seeing numbers like 35, 40, 48, and 79 (the last bid). 4 years to the left seat of the SF3/ATR in about a year from now is a real possibility. 2001 guys might get it on the next bid (after 9/2001 came 2 1/2 years of no hiring, btw).

 

[JSky26]

sorry for the thread hijack...

I know this is anyone's guess but where do you see the upgrade at in a year's time? I should have my degree and flight times by then.

Just curious, what A/C offers a "better" schedule out of ORD? CR7 or EMJ?

I'm seriously looking at AE since I'm from Chicago and would like to be based there for obvious QOL issues....