AAI contract

[airline#5]

Fo PAY IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!


WHAt happened to 2/3 of Capt. Pay???????


This thing $ucks.


Most will not upgrade for a long time.

NONONONONONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!

 

[UALX727]

I will be voting NO...........

 

[shindler]

IS AAI trying to imitate Mesa??

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

IS AAI trying to imitate Mesa??

I dont know, but if this thing passes they will be on property flying emb190 or crj900, as B717 flying is pulled down because they can do it cheaper. All the major carries are trying to bring the bigger RJs back on property and we want just want to give them away. Im sorry but what the F#%K happen?

 

[Wesb737fo]

Ok, somebody help me. Am I seeing this right?

The way I read the scope in this new TA is that it is essentially the same as the old with a few changes that aren't exactly improvements.

for example,


1). A sub-service contract for a company operating 100 aircraft is limited to 20% of our ASM's and 5% of our block hours. This is the same

2). Sub-service carriers can now operate aircraft with 79-86 seat aircraft provided they only fly 1/2 of the allowed 20% ASM's.

3).A significant change is The old contract did not allow sub service contracts with a carrier that had airplanes with over 70 seats/ 100,000 lbs. The new TA prevents Airtran from contracting with a carrier that has 106 seats/114,000 lbs. This does not mean 106 seat airplanes can be operated, it means Airtran cannot contract with a company that has that aircraft on their property. Am I reading this right?


So, the only real change I see in scope with the new TA is that 86 seat (instead of 70 seat) aircraft can fly a max. of 10% of our ASM's or 5% of our block hours.

The big enchilada is merger language.

The old contract had no time frame for operation integration in the case of a merger. It only states "where the surviving air carrier decides to integrate the pre-merger operations" that the integration should be done in a "fair and equitable manner".

The new TA language say 18 months to integrate the operations.

My question is, under the old contract, can AIRTRAN buy Midwest and drag out the integration indefinitely(or not at all) while placing those shiny new 737's on Midwest's property?

Do they have us by the balls? somebody please tell me they don't.

 

[CitationLover]

My question is, under the old contract, can AIRTRAN buy Midwest and drag out the integration indefinitely(or not at all) while placing those shiny new 737's on Midwest's property?

google single carrier petition. i would bet both pilot groups would be for it. no one at midwest wants to be a whipsawer.

 

[Lear70]

Ok, somebody help me. Am I seeing this right?

The way I read the scope in this new TA is that it is essentially the same as the old with a few changes that aren't exactly improvements.

The limits are almost identical, but the size restriction on the aircraft has gone down to allow a much larger aircraft which is what the company wanted.

The CURRENT scope limits them to aircraft they could only be marginally-profitable with. This means we'd be flying any of the 90-seat (or larger) RJ's reconfigured for 86 seats or less.

The proposed scope changes: we lose that, and only fly 87-seat or more aircraft. This is a way for the company to actually start using RJ's again, but not with AirTran pilots flying them. Like I said elsewhere, when we're upwards of 200 airplanes combined MEH fleet in a year or so, you could see 20 or so of these jets (ASM-tied) and another 20 or so 70-seaters.

I don't know about the other F/O's here, but if I had the choice to fly F/O on the 717 or 737 at $65 an hour for three more years until I get close to upgrade or to fly a 90-seater configured for 86 seats as a CA for $90-$100 an hour, I'd much prefer the pay raise and the left seat.

3).A significant change is The old contract did not allow sub service contracts with a carrier that had airplanes with over 70 seats/ 100,000 lbs. The new TA prevents Airtran from contracting with a carrier that has 106 seats/114,000 lbs. This does not mean 106 seat airplanes can be operated, it means Airtran cannot contract with a company that has that aircraft on their property. Am I reading this right?

Yep, you're reading that correctly. The old restriction was good because almost every bottom-feeder regional out there has 90-seaters on property somewhere for some carrier. That limited the company to the number of companies they could put the bid out for flying.

The new restriction allows them to contract from Freedom, Go-Jets, etc. and almost GUARANTEES they can operate these larger RJ's profitably and you'll start seeing them on property pretty quickly.

The big enchilada is merger language.

The old contract had no time frame for operation integration in the case of a merger. It only states "where the surviving air carrier decides to integrate the pre-merger operations" that the integration should be done in a "fair and equitable manner".

The new TA language say 18 months to integrate the operations.

My question is, under the old contract, can AIRTRAN buy Midwest and drag out the integration indefinitely(or not at all) while placing those shiny new 737's on Midwest's property?

Do they have us by the balls? somebody please tell me they don't.

No, they don't.

The company can't operate two separate certificates under one name (AirTran); Feds won't let 'em. The only way they could screw us is for OUR HOLDING COMPANY to continue to operate Midwest separately as "Midwest Airlines", replace their MD-80's and grow Midwest with "our" 737 deliveries, and continue to keep the airlines separate. It's neither financially nor operationally feasible for them to do so long-term and violates pretty much everything they've been saying to the press and the Midwest BOD, along with the SEC filings they've been making as required by law. I'm betting there's some legal ramifications to that, as well, but I'm not an attorney.

HERE'S THE KICKER: All evidence points that this new "merger language" didn't bind the holding company. If true, the "Merger language" they're touting so proudly doesn't really protect us at all.

The Scope provisions have a side-letter that agrees to bind the holding company. This section doesn't from what we've been told.

 

[Lear70]

google single carrier petition. i would bet both pilot groups would be for it. no one at midwest wants to be a whipsawer.

And how would you integrate the seniority with a single-carrier petition? DOH ain't gonna fly.

Sure, you can petition the NMB to declare you a single unit for bargaining purposes, wait for a year or so while they appoint a mediator and you discuss it with the company ad nauseum.

I've been searching the last 15 minutes and can't find where a carrier who actually DID apply for single carrier status was ever AWARDED it by the NMB. In all the cases I can find, the courts won't hear it and refer it back to the NMB, and the NMB simply directed mediation and waited until the carriers and the unions worked it out (years).

 

[CitationLover]

And how would you integrate the seniority with a single-carrier petition? DOH ain't gonna fly.

So you want your cake and eat it? They are already whipsawing you without a merger yet (ie the "threat" of it). Now you see why perhaps some pilots at MEH do not want a merger as they see how Joe will treat them. Can't wait to get Dr.'s notes for a cold, what are we fifth graders in orlando?

I told you how to integrate the seniority lists, by career expectations. Start with the FO's who are about to upgrade at both carriers and start it from there. You can find an equitable ratio for both above and below that line similar to line awards (ie a RSV CA at MEH should be one at the combined carrier, etc). Fence MKE/ATL, but provide some protection to MEH pilots in case next week MKE is closed (ie throw the fence out). You spew out the company line of growth and how well the business plan is, but your actions show you to be somewhat afraid of whether or not it will indeed grow. MEH is ONLY 25% of AAI, yet people are AFRAID of such a merger that they would vote yes to this crap contract?

 

[Steeler Fan]

MEH is ONLY 25% of AAI, yet people are AFRAID of such a merger that they would vote yes to this crap contract?

We'll see exactly what happens when the votes are tallied. Sure would be nice to see the entire TA.

 

[RadioClash]

Out of curiousity, what is the rational behind the 15 year pay scale? Was it for the Midwest guys in the event this merger goes through?

 

[CitationLover]

Out of curiousity, what is the rational behind the 15 year pay scale? Was it for the Midwest guys in the event this merger goes through?

are the NC / BoD affected by this within the contract cycle? perhaps self interests if so.

 

[Beetle007]

How much is open time and junior assignment pay at Air Tran.

 

[Lear70]

So you want your cake and eat it?

What the hell are you talking about?

They are already whipsawing you without a merger yet (ie the "threat" of it).

No, they're not. They're trying, and very few people are actually buying it.

Now you see why perhaps some pilots at MEH do not want a merger as they see how Joe will treat them. Can't wait to get Dr.'s notes for a cold, what are we fifth graders in orlando?

I don't blame them for not wanting it, but we don't need to rehash this old argument. Again, you threw a solution into the mix, now explain to me HOW EXACTLY we can make it work.

I told you how to integrate the seniority lists, by career expectations.

Where did you do this? Like 2 months ago in another thread? I don't even attempt to remember everything everyone else says on this board; there's just too much going on for that right now.

Start with the FO's who are about to upgrade at both carriers and start it from there. You can find an equitable ratio for both above and below that line similar to line awards (ie a RSV CA at MEH should be one at the combined carrier, etc). Fence MKE/ATL, but provide some protection to MEH pilots in case next week MKE is closed (ie throw the fence out).

Everything was fine with what you were saying until that last part. Fences could be changed to reflect a single base, but you can't throw them out completely. That's not what the company has in mind anyway. They need somewhere else to put the planes. If it's not MKE, it'll be somewhere else in the midwest.

You spew out the company line of growth and how well the business plan is, but your actions show you to be somewhat afraid of whether or not it will indeed grow. MEH is ONLY 25% of AAI, yet people are AFRAID of such a merger that they would vote yes to this crap contract?

Not at all. That's how YOU are interpreting my statements on this board. I have repeatedly said that the company's plan of growth isn't the issue. The problem is that it's not "guaranteed", and that's what they're trying to use to sell this T.A.

Without a guarantee, their line of logic is useless. "Take this low-ball F/O pay rate because you'll be a CA by year 4, but we're not going to put it in writing." Maybe if we went to CA pay automatically at year 4, regardless of seat, people would buy off on it.

There are SOME people who are buying into the merger "scare tactic" because they haven't been educated in the realities the company faces trying to accomplish this merger. Once we educate them, it won't be a problem.

I still fail to see how a single carrier petition helps us NOW. That's something that might have to be invoked 6 months to a year from now, but nothing that helps change the proposed T.A. or gives a good, SAFE alternative to signing the T.A. just to satisfy merger fears, as there's no guarantee the NMB would sign off on it or even push it in a timely fashion.

 

[Lear70]

How much is open time and junior assignment pay at Air Tran.

Oh yeah, sorry...

Open time pays straight (no premium).

Junior Assignment and Downline Draft (Extension) pay are both paid at 150%, both in the current Agreement and the proposed T.A.

 

[CitationLover]

lear,

i am not specifically addressing you but rather the pilots as a whole. you're simply the "loudest" one out here.

you are correct that a single carrier will not help you now. what will help you now is scope language in the new TA. but the worries are being laid out as if midwest HAS been bought. if thats the case with the new or old TA a single carrier petition could be used to stop a potential whipsaw.

the fence waiver is simply protection for midwest such that 1 month after the "merger" they simply do not displace and shut down MKE. the fence will simply disappear when the junior FO upgrades from the merged list. this is all a negotiated process, "ask for the moon" (DOH) is what is started.

the air tran business model so widely touted as being successful, then what harm would a fence waiver be? MKE will be wildly successful!

keep up the good fight and defeat this TA.

 

[B73av8r]

TA No Way

Received my bag tag today.

They are starting to float around - it reads --- TA NO WAY!!!

Now there is a bag tag I can finally be proud of!

 

[Lear70]

lear,

i am not specifically addressing you but rather the pilots as a whole. you're simply the "loudest" one out here.

Yeah, I know, I've been told... sorry. Stupidity and incompetence just p*ss me off and this whole T.A. deal is either one or the other.

you are correct that a single carrier will not help you now. what will help you now is scope language in the new TA. but the worries are being laid out as if midwest HAS been bought. if thats the case with the new or old TA a single carrier petition could be used to stop a potential whipsaw.

That's very true. More than likely in the current climate, they'd be forced to integrate into one unit - they've made WAY too many claims (even SEC filings) about one big happy AirTran family in MKE with increased service, blah blah blah.

the fence waiver is simply protection for midwest such that 1 month after the "merger" they simply do not displace and shut down MKE. the fence will simply disappear when the junior FO upgrades from the merged list. this is all a negotiated process, "ask for the moon" (DOH) is what is started.

So if "ask for the moon" is what is started at MEH, should we at AirTran "ask for the moon" and bring a stapler?

I'm KIDDING!!! No one here has advocated that. Well... no one with any semblance of a brain or heart.

the air tran business model so widely touted as being successful, then what harm would a fence waiver be? MKE will be wildly successful!

keep up the good fight and defeat this TA.

Thanks, we appreciate the support. I know you're supporting it 'cause you might have to live with it, but any support is good support!

 

[Lear70]

Received my bag tag today.

They are starting to float around - it reads --- TA NO WAY!!!

Now there is a bag tag I can finally be proud of!

Sweet! Talking to sticker people tomorrow, wonder if I put that YGBFSM in small print at the bottom, people would notice? *whistling - who me?*

 

[Lear70]

Count me in . .. . .. . . . . for time, and money, if necessary.

.

OK, got a line on these things, should be able to get them in within 48 hours. It was only $150 bucks including FedEx delivery, so no big deal, but I'll need some guys to help distribute them.

They come in rolls of 1000. I'm going to split them up into stacks of 100 and give them to the guys who will help pass them out, even spend a couple hours coming in early and leaving late on trips in the crew lounge.

Might be good to come up with some "truths and misconceptions" flyers to hand out with them so people can see what's not being said from the MEC.

Any volunteers to come in a couple hours early and stay a couple hours after their last flight? Just need a few hours from each person and, if we get enough people, we can really get the word out on this thing.

Thanks!

Rich
[email protected]

 

[-9Capt]

Did you guys ever think that the NPA BoD has gotten ZERO support from most of your pilot group. How many people have gone to the Union mettings? Do you do more than vote? You wanted a TA, and they gave it to you! Your message gives your BoD the leverage it needs to work, or you can through bags for the rampers. So either Cowboy UP! Get on with your vote, and if you vote no be ready and open to do more than bitch on this website. That means helping out and picking up a sign. That means time and effort to support your BoD, or this is the best it gets. It is your call. Welcome to the party two years late.

Glad to see someone gets it.

Let's call ops for catering or when our gate is occupied a few more times. Hey, are there any wheelchairs that need pushing? Maybe you should ask for that shortcut, we're running late... GMAFB, this is what you get for your good deeds.

This pilot group has been an embarrassment. No idea how to act during negotiations, not a clue.

We got what we got and have ourselves to blame.

 

[Green]

So do any Airtran pilots want to guess at how the vote will turn out?????


Best of Luck!!!

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

We got what we got and have ourselves to blame.

We havent got anything yet. VOTE IT DOWN!!!!!!

 

[ATA For Now!]

Glad to see someone gets it.

Let's call ops for catering or when our gate is occupied a few more times. Hey, are there any wheelchairs that need pushing? Maybe you should ask for that shortcut, we're running late... GMAFB, this is what you get for your good deeds.

This pilot group has been an embarrassment. No idea how to act during negotiations, not a clue.

We got what we got and have ourselves to blame.

-9 CA...I agree 100%! I was only there for a year but what a year it was! I had a CA actually YELL at me once for not pushing a wheelchair. I called in sick for the rest of the trip on the spot. After being a union rep, all I can say is you get what you NEGOTIATE. If the BOD has no support (which at AAI it does not) they are POWERLESS in negotiations. It was by far the most fractured pilot group I have seen. Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of great guys but there was no direction ad no unity. Without that, you have nothing.

Soon after I was hired, I was asked to help out on the union. My response was to drop negotiations and start a campaign of Hi. Just say Hi to each other. Start to unify the group. I can't count how many times I sat in the crewroom or walked down the hall in ops and someone walking the other way didn't even look over at a lowly FO. It was amazing! Saying Hi and working with each other will start to bring everyone together. Mgmt there does a great job trying to keep the group splintered. You need to be one voice, not 1200.

About a month ago, I received a call form a very nice person in HR. She told me she was hired by the company to find out why so many pilots were leaving even when few airlines were hiring. We spent 40 mins on the phone and then had a follow up call of another 30 the next week. She said they had NO IDEA how bad things were. I tried to explain, without sounding like a complainer, how management there makes you feel. The little one line insults in crew track (by the way, if you're going to act high and mighty, at least spell right!), the fear and intimidation in the training center and the general BS treatment. Ironically, the "why do you think we hate you" letter came out soon after.

I hope you guys get it together and show Mgmt what you think of this TA. I know how I would have voted if I were there!

Good luck!

RV

 

[Lear70]

Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of great guys but there was no direction ad no unity. Without that, you have nothing.

We may have that unity after this T.A. goes down in flames...

Maybe it was just what the Doctor ordered. >-)

 

[exphojump]

SCOPE....

Frontier Annual Report

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001068800-07-001305&Type=HTML

On January 11, 2007, we signed an agreement with Republic under which Republic will operate up to 17 Embraer 170 aircraft with capacity of 76-seats under our Frontier JetExpress brand. The contract is for an 11-year period from the in-service date of the last aircraft, which is scheduled for December 2008.

By March 2009:

Mainline 63
Lynx 10 (70 seat)
Republic 17 (76 seat)

Republic is praying you vote in that contract. Three 175s replace two 717s.

Be nice to the FOs, you may be downgraded to FO in the next recession.

Good luck,

 

[-9Capt]

We havent got anything yet. VOTE IT DOWN!!!!!!

You know what I mean. We got a POS TA.

Management has no incentive to give us anything.

 

[Eagle757shark]

-9 CA...I agree 100%! I was only there for a year but what a year it was! I had a CA actually YELL at me once for not pushing a wheelchair. I called in sick for the rest of the trip on the spot. After being a union rep, all I can say is you get what you NEGOTIATE. If the BOD has no support (which at AAI it does not) they are POWERLESS in negotiations. It was by far the most fractured pilot group I have seen. Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of great guys but there was no direction ad no unity. Without that, you have nothing.

Soon after I was hired, I was asked to help out on the union. My response was to drop negotiations and start a campaign of Hi. Just say Hi to each other. Start to unify the group. I can't count how many times I sat in the crewroom or walked down the hall in ops and someone walking the other way didn't even look over at a lowly FO. It was amazing! Saying Hi and working with each other will start to bring everyone together. Mgmt there does a great job trying to keep the group splintered. You need to be one voice, not 1200.

About a month ago, I received a call form a very nice person in HR. She told me she was hired by the company to find out why so many pilots were leaving even when few airlines were hiring. We spent 40 mins on the phone and then had a follow up call of another 30 the next week. She said they had NO IDEA how bad things were. I tried to explain, without sounding like a complainer, how management there makes you feel. The little one line insults in crew track (by the way, if you're going to act high and mighty, at least spell right!), the fear and intimidation in the training center and the general BS treatment. Ironically, the "why do you think we hate you" letter came out soon after.

I hope you guys get it together and show Mgmt what you think of this TA. I know how I would have voted if I were there!

Good luck!

RV

What was the general response after you spoke with the HR rep on why pilots were leaving? They just put out a pilot survey, maybe that is in response to the number of guys leaving. Hopefully guys will fill out the survey.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

What was the general response after you spoke with the HR rep on why pilots were leaving? They just put out a pilot survey, maybe that is in response to the number of guys leaving. Hopefully guys will fill out the survey.

My buddy that was in my class and left got a call too. But he has not called back yet. I will keep you guys posted when he does.

 

[TV9Driver]

i filled out my survey. I don't think i used a number higher than 2 on the whole thing.