AAI contract

[-9Capt]

what survey? I've been on vacation for the last 2 weeks.

 

[Ace McCoy]

A No voter here...

I'm glad that people are starting to pick up on the "core time" thing. That is going to be a serious cut in our trips.

Think of all the times you are early to a destination. That will be your new base pay for that leg. We had this at my last carrier and it will cost us at least 5 minutes per leg.

I'm not against negotiation some stuff away but lets at least get something in return. We are not working for a money losing carrier in bankruptcy. That's why I loved AP's comparisons to NWA, DAL, and UAL. 7 years of profits with 2 more to come vs. carriers that hemorrhaged money for the past few years.

Do you think the SWA guys take concessions because Delta did?

 

[Wesb737fo]

So you want your cake and eat it? They are already whipsawing you without a merger yet (ie the "threat" of it). Now you see why perhaps some pilots at MEH do not want a merger as they see how Joe will treat them. Can't wait to get Dr.'s notes for a cold, what are we fifth graders in orlando?

MEH is ONLY 25% of AAI, yet people are AFRAID of such a merger that they would vote yes to this crap contract?

Are you smoking crack? Just because I asked the question as to wether the company could attempt a whipsaw doesn't mean I will vote for this crap TA. And, as I said before I couldn't really care as to wether we merged or not. I just want to figure out what's coming after this is voted down. BTW do you even work for MEH?

 

[CitationLover]

Are you smoking crack? Just because I asked the question as to wether the company could attempt a whipsaw doesn't mean I will vote for this crap TA. And, as I said before I couldn't really care as to wether we merged or not. I just want to figure out what's coming after this is voted down. BTW do you even work for MEH?

i'm glad you are voting no.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

This was brought up to me by P2P jump seating on my flight this week.

There is a new scale for 100 seat jet at AirTran and it tops out at about 100 bucks at year 12.

EMB 195 with business class = 100 seat jet. With these new rates, and only 2 FAs instead of 3, better fuel burn than 717 and further range, it is 25% less to operate than 717. This management is looking to cut cost anywhere they can, do you think they will pass up an opportunity to cut it by 25%?

So you captains with less than 8 years seniority who hold lines on 717 and on 737 only because top senior pilots are split between 2 aircraft think again.

Say company starts parking 717s and getting EMBs. 737 will become super senior as all 717 pilots will run for it. Those who are on 737 will be pushed to reserve. (With new rules)

Those who can't bid over will be displaced to EMB and get paid $89/hr (that's me...7th year)

I asked AP that same scenario today in the CPs office. He replied that EMB rates were average from companies like JetBlue....My problem with that is that JetBlue pilots don't pay union dues...their rates were forced on them by the company. So we're just gonna take those rates?
What's the point of having a union then?

He also said that pay rates in this TA are 737-800 rates and that our 717 pilots will be overpaid. (more reasons for company to park them) He said if we want higher EMB rates then we need to lower 717 rates. Unbelievable!

Mark my words, this thing passes - all you FO's are looking to upgrade to 100 seat jet for 80 bucks an hour.

RECALL NPA BoD! They have lost focus.

 

[B73av8r]

This is why we need to have narrow body and wide body pay rates period.



Ok - follow me on this.


If they someday want a 777 for overseas (yes I know) they pay wide body rates, if they want to bring a C402 on line, they are going to pay narrow body rates – I think you get the idea.

Having different pay rates for specific aircraft can cut both ways with a LCC. It plays right into the hands of management. Most of us know that the replacement for the 717 is coming, we just don’t know when or what it will be, but if it is the 170 – 195 you can bet they will want to pay much less than the 717 and 737.

Now on Scope –

I keep hearing 70 seats, no it should be 50 seats, no wait how about 44 seats ------- how about ANY seats.

If they want AirTran passengers flown, it should be done by AirTran pilots no matter what size of aircraft C402 – 170 – 190 – 737 – 777. This is one time I think even the women will agree size doesn’t matter.

 

[Ty Webb]

what survey? I've been on vacation for the last 2 weeks.

It's a survey of whether you want the Teamsters, or ALPA.


I have had enough of the Neutered Pilots Association.


.

 

[Lear70]

BTW do you even work for MEH?

He's a new-hire; should be in sims in ATL right about now, unless they put his class date off.

This was brought up to me by P2P jump seating on my flight this week.

There is a new scale for 100 seat jet at AirTran and it tops out at about 100 bucks at year 12.

EMB 195 with business class = 100 seat jet. With these new rates, and only 2 FAs instead of 3, better fuel burn than 717 and further range, it is 25% less to operate than 717. This management is looking to cut cost anywhere they can, do you think they will pass up an opportunity to cut it by 25%?

If we're LUCKY, we'll be flying them (if we don't give up Scope). These airplanes ARE coming, and we'd better be negotiating a good rate for them because THEY are the growth vehicle for this airline.

Don't think they can be on property fast? Think again. The major leasing companies already have purchased these and are receiving them. Whoever pays them the most lease money, gets them, and gets them pretty dang quick (less than a year to spool-up of delivery schedule).

So you captains with less than 8 years seniority who hold lines on 717 and on 737 only because top senior pilots are split between 2 aircraft think again.

Say company starts parking 717s and getting EMBs. 737 will become super senior as all 717 pilots will run for it. Those who are on 737 will be pushed to reserve. (With new rules)

Those who can't bid over will be displaced to EMB and get paid $89/hr (that's me...7th year)

You forgot to mention that's a CA rate.

I asked AP that same scenario today in the CPs office. He replied that EMB rates were average from companies like JetBlue....My problem with that is that JetBlue pilots don't pay union dues...their rates were forced on them by the company. So we're just gonna take those rates?

What's the point of having a union then?

Ask him if that's the jetBlue BLENDED rate... you're going to find out that it's NOT.

The NPA did not use the JB blended rates in their salary comparison computations so ALL the numbers are skewed downward by up to 15%.

He also said that pay rates in this TA are 737-800 rates and that our 717 pilots will be overpaid. (more reasons for company to park them) He said if we want higher EMB rates then we need to lower 717 rates. Unbelievable!

Yeah, I keep wanting to avoid the kind of upset a recall would require but this guy is just WAY too far out of the loop to be left in office.

Mark my words, this thing passes - all you FO's are looking to upgrade to 100 seat jet for 80 bucks an hour.

Exactamundo.

RECALL NPA BoD! They have lost focus.

I don't know about the entire BOD, but AP needs to go, as does Skipper and maybe one or two others who are just too out of touch for the responsibility they have.

 

[BigEasy]

-9 CA...I agree 100%! I was only there for a year but what a year it was! I had a CA actually YELL at me once for not pushing a wheelchair. I called in sick for the rest of the trip on the spot. After being a union rep, all I can say is you get what you NEGOTIATE. If the BOD has no support (which at AAI it does not) they are POWERLESS in negotiations. It was by far the most fractured pilot group I have seen. Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of great guys but there was no direction ad no unity. Without that, you have nothing.

Soon after I was hired, I was asked to help out on the union. My response was to drop negotiations and start a campaign of Hi. Just say Hi to each other. Start to unify the group. I can't count how many times I sat in the crewroom or walked down the hall in ops and someone walking the other way didn't even look over at a lowly FO. It was amazing! Saying Hi and working with each other will start to bring everyone together. Mgmt there does a great job trying to keep the group splintered. You need to be one voice, not 1200.

About a month ago, I received a call form a very nice person in HR. She told me she was hired by the company to find out why so many pilots were leaving even when few airlines were hiring. We spent 40 mins on the phone and then had a follow up call of another 30 the next week. She said they had NO IDEA how bad things were. I tried to explain, without sounding like a complainer, how management there makes you feel. The little one line insults in crew track (by the way, if you're going to act high and mighty, at least spell right!), the fear and intimidation in the training center and the general BS treatment. Ironically, the "why do you think we hate you" letter came out soon after.

I hope you guys get it together and show Mgmt what you think of this TA. I know how I would have voted if I were there!

Good luck!

RV

You could not have written this any better!! What you wrote explains it in great detail.

I never did get an exit interview nor a phone call. What I did get was a run around for almost two months to get my vacation pay!!!

Hope all is well with you.

Bigeasy

BO

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

If we give up scope to 86 seats we wont be flying anything with 100 seats pay rates. It will be some regional carrier with $70 rates. EMB-190 or CRJ900 with business class pushs it down to 86 seats. This going to get ugly.

 

[Eagle757shark]

i filled out my survey. I don't think i used a number higher than 2 on the whole thing.

If most of the pilots fill out that survey, I believe the company will be shocked how so many feel. There should have been a comments block on the survey. But I guess you can write comments at the bottom of the sheet. Look, this should be a fun job! I love flying airplanes. All I want to see is a contract that is clear in language and not vague with a lot of interpretations and protects scope. A commuter policy should be spelled out! There should be a header "commuters" and what the policy is in black and white. Not that trash about showing up late. Again it was unclear what they were talking about, but that is our commuter policy. Sick time, either you do or you don't have to provide a note! Now the powerpoint doesn't say anything about providing a note, so I don't know where that got started, but it should be clear in the language. AP and Negotiating committee, you need to present a contract that is clear in language period! If you have to rely on a question and answer section to clarify this contract, THEN IT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AND YOU NEED TO RETURN TO THE TABLE AND FIX THE LANGUAGE IN THE CONTRACT BEFORE PASSING ANY TA! If you know it is going to create a grievance, then you know it is a problem, start there negotiating committee!

 

[Beetle007]

The 4.5 average ? not sure that would be bad if the trips were constructed with efficiency being the key driver...Current trip I'm on..is 6.5 day 1...4.2 day 2...6.6 day 3... 5.0.. day 4.....so my average is above the TA 4.5!!

When the contract changes the company usually builds trips differently to maximize the efficiencies. At my company we went from a 4 hour a day guarantee to a 4 hour a day average. I wasn't here when the change occured, but I heard it was a significant paycut when the company started building trips to utilize it. Why build efficient pairings (from a pilot perspective) when they can have you sit 24+ hours at an outstation without pay?

For Example
Day 1 - 6 hrs
Day 2 - 0 hrs (24 hour+ layover)
Day 3 - 6 hours
= 12 hours of pay (i.e.,working for free on day 2.)
Note: the old contract would have been 16 hours of pay

To put it in perspective-
I am currently on a 4 day trip with two 24+ hour layovers.

 

[Lear70]

The Q&A's are done.

I'm told a few copies were up on bulletin boards in ops and quickly were snagged by pilots wanting to read them.

P2P special meeting tomorrow (thanks for the advance notice, I'm supposed to fly) at Alteon to go over the T.A. in full. I guess they're trying to get us on board to try to sell it to the pilot group.

Full text available on Friday.

Here's my vote:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lear70/No_TA_final.jpg

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

It's a survey of whether you want the Teamsters, or ALPA.


I have had enough of the Neutered Pilots Association.


.

T, not ALPO

 

[Joey Bayonne]

Now that the Q&A's are out, has anyone heard a timeline for road shows and voting? The contract has an effective date of July 1, but that seems too quick for road shows and ratification. Is it too early to send in my NO vote?!

 

[PCL_128]

T, not ALPO

Yeah, that'd be a smart move. The trucker's union.

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, that'd be a smart move. The trucker's union.

Don't start...

One battle at a time.

The T.A. will be available in full on Friday. Voting will open on Monday, so you can cast your vote then.

Mine will be immediate, and will be a very large NO!

And KMDA...

Incidentally, the first road show is tomorrow for P2P's only. Future road shows to be announced, probably as early as Mon or Tues next week after people have had the weekend to review the full document.

I will have NO stickers available by Sunday and will be in ops from 1430 until about 1800 on Sunday passing them out and discussing the finer points of "why vote NO" across from the guys who are doing the opposite.

If you want one, they're free. Email me at [email protected] and I'll see if I can drop one in your v-file (if I can find enough manilla envelopes).

 

[PCL_128]

Don't start...

One battle at a time.

Sorry, kneejerk reaction whenever someone mentions the Teamsters. Those sons of b!tches still owe millions to the AFL-CIO from when they skipped out last year without paying their dues.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

What time does it open because I need to VOTE NO before I start throwing sh!!!t!!!!!!!

 

[Lear70]

What time does it open because I need to VOTE NO before I start throwing sh!!!t!!!!!!!

I'm sorry... posted "unofficial" info and got chastised for it via PM... oh well.

Should have read:

"Voting SHOULD begin on Monday..."

If the read on it is very negative, I wouldn't be surprised to see it delayed until after some roadshows which is contrary to what AP said on the 1st conference call, but why give us what we expect now?

In the meantime, I just got screwed for 4 hours of pay I have to fight for because I was removed from a FPO turn because the COMPANY somehow got my passport info changed to something wrong since the LAST time I went to FPO and it's somehow MY fault so I'm somehow not pay protected.

Yeah, I have access to company TSA data and go in there all the time to change my name, just for grins and giggles. Not to mention that they are somehow unable to change a name on a customs dec. more than 12 HOURS IN ADVANCE!

You think there's any CHANCE on God's green earth I'm going to give them MORE leeway in Section 4 & 5?

JUST SAY NO!!!

(and KMDA)...

 

[newnan]

Q&A session has begun on NPA site. I've sent a few questions to see if I'd get any answers. There's a lot of soft balls.

 

[Flash]

Talk about softballs. Back in my first recurrent there was all kinds of talk from the seasoned veterans in the back of the room. Klaus shows up to do his thing and us newbies couldn't wait for the hard questions to fly. 1st question "is it true we're getting leather seats in first?" and it was all down hill from there!