NETJETS Profits...UP UP and AWAY!

[CA1900]

Hey FG!

Just for the record, got my brief for tomorrow. Have to airline PIT-LAX. Hmmm........a number of nonstop flights exist on that route. Guess what I'm doing? PIT-PHX-LAX.

He's right, you're just not seeing the big picture. If you were put on a direct flight, the scheduler wouldn't be able to check that little box that you had a "long enough" duty day, and thus you were being "utilized" adequately. Nevermind that you're just going to go to a hotel, and wouldn't be producing any revenue either way. It's all about filling up the day.

 

[fischman]

No anger or hostility here. I’m actually very happy with my life. I have a great family, great friends, and a great job with a great company.

I think part of what makes me happy with what I have is that I’ve been on the other side….I’ve worked for a unionized mainline carrier and I’ve worked for crappy companies that don’t take care of their people. So when you find a good company it makes you appreciate it even more.

That said, I do find your question somewhat ironic because I've wondered the same thing about so many of the union supporters on this board. A new reader of this board could easily get the impression that NetJets is a bad place to work, what with all the angst and wringing of hands here.

Of course, what is everyone bitching about? Crew food and HBA for new hires? If that’s all you have to bitch about then life is pretty damn good.

What I do find disturbing is that so many relatively new hires (5 years or less) have no appreciation for their good fortune and just want to bitch and publicly disparage our CEO and other leaders. Many of these same whiners have actually been laid off from mainline carriers, but instead of being grateful for finding a safe harbor in this economic storm that has beset the aviation world for the last 6 years, all they can think of is recreating their airline world here.

So they’ve imported airline style bargaining, and airline union attitudes. It’s probably inevitable that the company will resort to the same tactics and use airline style bargaining practices as well. For the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would leave a dying business model and yet try to recreate that same environment in their new home.

I, for one, want nothing of that airline mentality imported into NetJets. I’ve seen a lot of my friends work for years at a legacy carrier only to lose their jobs and receive a fraction of their benefits. Why would anyone want to replicate that model?

You want to re-read that and explain how that doesn't insult every one of us? Your "tone" implies nothing but disgust and contempt. I thought you said you had the upmost respect for the pilots at NetJets? Doesn't sound like it to me... Which side of the rope are you on?

Dan Rosenthal (Maybe you know him. He works in the office of the chairman) mentioned that the domicile business plan will only REALLY work if they are able to get all the pilots in the same 5 cities. I asked him if he actually thinks 1108 will approve that, and he answered no. I stared in disbelief and silence...

Why do we have domiciles then? Sounds like someone isn't pulling on the same side of the rope. I wonder why we don't trust them.

Or you.

P.S. I agree with Flylow. If the company wants to do away with crew food, I will gladly park my plane to go eat. The food will be better, and I can get what I want instead of being told what I can eat like a 3 year old. Until then I suggest management figures out a way to comply with 20.7 or watch the grievances pile up.

 

[RNObased]

Hey FG!

Just for the record, got my brief for tomorrow. Have to airline PIT-LAX. Hmmm........a number of nonstop flights exist on that route. Guess what I'm doing? PIT-PHX-LAX.

So what were you saying about getting us to planes faster?






Crickets........................

Hey guys, don't you know by now that FG doesn't deal with the facts??? Looking at the facts, gets in the way of gazing at the big picture.

 

[NJA Capt]

Sure, it would be nice if we could change crews in large cities. It would also be nice if we could do all of our maintenance in large cities as well. Unfortunately it just doesnt work out that way all the time. That's the fractional 'on demand' model.

You control what you can, to the best of your abilities, but there are no guarantees.

FG,
There are plenty of guarantees but people refuse to see them.

As eluded to above. You have a crew that passes through TEB or PBI in the middle of the day. Instead of changing crews in TEB/PBI, we elect to let them continue to Quincy, IL where they duty out. That afternoon, scheduling gets another crew to Quincy to pickup the plane and the first crew is stranded. The following day the 1st crew must be traveled to another aircraft effectively wasting another duty day. In addition to 4-6 airline tickets and half a duty day for each crew.

If crews were swapped in TEB when the "chance was provided," we wouldn't have wasted so much time and money.

The pilot utilization mantra is meaningless. Aircraft utilization should be the primary effort.

They've been used for neither?

I guess all that work maintenance has been doing to focus aircraft on LAX and PBI for overnight mx has just been wasted....

From our vantage point yes. I couldn't tell you the last time I picked up a plane from mx in LAX or PBI. Call LAX an see how many QS's are in mx and then call MCO, GSO, SWF, LIT, and TOL.

 

[FamilyGuy]

You want to re-read that and explain how that doesn't insult every one of us? Your "tone" implies nothing but disgust and contempt. I thought you said you had the upmost respect for the pilots at NetJets? Doesn't sound like it to me... Which side of the rope are you on?

How do you take that quote - aimed at people complaining about what are relatively minor issues - and extrapolate it into an attack on all pilots at NetJets?

Regardless of how you 'perceive' the 'tone' it is a valid point, one that you've already validated in your earlier posts...

Here's the evidence in case you've already forgotten how good you have it after a little over one year at NetJets...

I'll never go back to a regional or a major. No scheduling pressures, crew food:erm: , 7 off, decent pay (once you upgrade which if you got hired today at NJA I would assume to be between 3 to 5 years), nice aircraft, no commute (if you live in your domicile), hotel and airline points (I get about 400,000 Hilton points a year; enough for a week in Hawaii or 10 days in Orlando with the kids)

Screw the regionals!
I've been there, done that. Commuting twice a week. Sleeping in the crew lounge, or car. $40,000/year at year 3 fo and no hope for upgrade. You got a job in 6 months? Who knows. Feeling lucky to have enough time to eat at Burger King. NO THANKS!!! I will NEVER go back to the airlines. NEVER!!!

NJA is better by far. You know you will have a job in 5 years. decent hotels. No commuting. crew food + per diem. upgrade possibilities. decent pay. clean planes. 7&7 schedule. The most important point of all: you might get to fly with me.

NJA is the way to go

P.S. I agree with Flylow. If the company wants to do away with crew food, I will gladly park my plane to go eat. The food will be better, and I can get what I want instead of being told what I can eat like a 3 year old. Until then I suggest management figures out a way to comply with 20.7 or watch the grievances pile up.

Amazing how quickly some people forget the past...

 

[FamilyGuy]

FG,
There are plenty of guarantees but people refuse to see them.

As eluded to above. You have a crew that passes through TEB or PBI in the middle of the day. Instead of changing crews in TEB/PBI, we elect to let them continue to Quincy, IL where they duty out. That afternoon, scheduling gets another crew to Quincy to pickup the plane and the first crew is stranded. The following day the 1st crew must be traveled to another aircraft effectively wasting another duty day. In addition to 4-6 airline tickets and half a duty day for each crew.

If crews were swapped in TEB when the "chance was provided," we wouldn't have wasted so much time and money.

The pilot utilization mantra is meaningless. Aircraft utilization should be the primary effort.


From our vantage point yes. I couldn't tell you the last time I picked up a plane from mx in LAX or PBI. Call LAX an see how many QS's are in mx and then call MCO, GSO, SWF, LIT, and TOL.

You bring up some good points Capt. I agree that there is a lot of inefficiency in the system and we have a lot of work to do.

That's why I made the statement earlier in this thread that I haven't seen much improvement in cutting costs in some areas and improving efficiency. The opportunities are there, we need to start fixing it though. The increased utilization is generating profits and covering a lot of inefficiency. What concerns me is when the economy slows down again. Will we have used this time in the sun to improve the operation?

 

[higgy]

You bring up some good points Capt. I agree that there is a lot of inefficiency in the system and we have a lot of work to do.

That's why I made the statement earlier in this thread that I haven't seen much improvement in cutting costs in some areas and improving efficiency. The opportunities are there, we need to start fixing it though. The increased utilization is generating profits and covering a lot of inefficiency. What concerns me is when the economy slows down again. Will we have used this time in the sun to improve the operation?

Face it. If you havent fixed it by now your not going to. how long have you had? How long has this glouruous idea been floating around and you STILL can't make it work??? Dude if we did our job the way you do yours we WOULD be out of business and that is a fact!!! I'd like to hear you argue that. You guys had your chace and you failed. Face it it just dosent work. If i were you I would go back to the drawing board before the economy slows down.

 

[RNObased]

You bring up some good points Capt. I agree that there is a lot of inefficiency in the system and we have a lot of work to do.

That's why I made the statement earlier in this thread that I haven't seen much improvement in cutting costs in some areas and improving efficiency. The opportunities are there, we need to start fixing it though. The increased utilization is generating profits and covering a lot of inefficiency. What concerns me is when the economy slows down again. Will we have used this time in the sun to improve the operation?

And why do you think that the inefficiency hasn't been fixed???? Any idea???
Maybe because everyone has their own little castle and needs to protect it??? Or maybe the fact that no one in the company is accountable for anything except the folks actually driving the jets around??? This is the fact that chaps my a$$ no end. No one is accountable for any of their actions in CMH. I know of only one person to get the axe for doing some dumb stuff, but then again she cost the company millions.

Accountability.... Family Guy when we going to see some??????

 

[FamilyGuy]

Face it. If you havent fixed it by now your not going to. how long have you had? How long has this glouruous idea been floating around and you STILL can't make it work??? Dude if we did our job the way you do yours we WOULD be out of business and that is a fact!!! I'd like to hear you argue that. You guys had your chace and you failed. Face it it just dosent work. If i were you I would go back to the drawing board before the economy slows down.

Failed?

That's a pretty harsh assessment for a business model that's been in place for over 20 years and makes a profit.

The point you are missing is that we are talking about improvements. The basic model works, but we all see things that can be done better.

But I would like to hear why you think people have failed here in columbus.

utilization rate of the aircraft is 10% better than a year ago
maintenance availability is 10% higher than a year ago
we fly about about 800 flights per day. What percentage of the dispatches are incorrect?
We order over 1,000 meals a day, what percentage of orders are wrong?
We arrange hundreds of hotel rooms a day, what percentage are wrong?

What is your definition of failure?

 

[FLYLOW22]

How do you take that quote - aimed at people complaining about what are relatively minor issues - and extrapolate it into an attack on all pilots at NetJets?

Regardless of how you 'perceive' the 'tone' it is a valid point, one that you've already validated in your earlier posts...

Here's the evidence in case you've already forgotten how good you have it after a little over one year at NetJets...

Amazing how quickly some people forget the past...

You are SO right FamGhey.

We are so rude to not have included one person in our thanks; YOU!

Had YOU and your ilk NOT pissed us off so badly, we would not be enjoying the pay and benefits that, YES... the company provides but WE fought for.

Thanks for pissing us off.

Keep doing it. My accountant loves you too.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Face it. If you havent fixed it by now your not going to. how long have you had? How long has this glouruous idea been floating around and you STILL can't make it work??? Dude if we did our job the way you do yours we WOULD be out of business and that is a fact!!! I'd like to hear you argue that. You guys had your chace and you failed. Face it it just dosent work. If i were you I would go back to the drawing board before the economy slows down.

What really kills turds like FamGhey is that PILOTS may just be part of the solution in an industry that decided to shun them and treat them like cogs.

It just irks them to hell that they can't just sing a memo and solve the company problems.

 

[Guitar Guy]

What is your definition of failure?

We could start with the fact that pilots are barred from communicating directly with schedulers. There are sadly plenty of missed opportunities because the company continues to maintain a wall between crews and schedulers. If we have a mechanical problem, we can talk directly with maintenance. If there's a problem with a flight release, call directly to a dispatcher. Ops-related issue, we can talk directly with an ACP. But if there's a scheduling issue, we can only call a flight manager or ACP and hope that the message gets delivered "the big giant head" at least partially.

I would consider that situation an ongoing failure and one that should have been corrected long ago. A boat goes faster when everyone is rowing in the same direction.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Failed?



utilization rate of the aircraft is 10% better than a year ago
maintenance availability is 10% higher than a year ago
we fly about about 800 flights per day. What percentage of the dispatches are incorrect?
We order over 1,000 meals a day, what percentage of orders are wrong?
We arrange hundreds of hotel rooms a day, what percentage are wrong?

What is your definition of failure?

You really want answers to his?? WOW!!

You forgot to ask the right question Ghey.

How many of these operations would have gon T.U. without pilot intervention????

That is the question.

 

[FLYLOW22]

A boat goes faster when everyone is rowing in the same direction.

"Or pulliung a rope in the same direction??"

Hmmm. Sounded good when I heard it. Darn near brought a tear to me eye.

Sounded good anyway.

 

[realityman]

FG,

You STILL don't get it, do you?

Sigh.

I'm afraid it's attitude like yours that's going to cause round two of negotiations to be a repeat of round 1. FLYLOW, you ready?

FG, how about talking to all the newhires and asking them if domiciles are an insignificant issue. Especially since every reason the company gave for needing the domiciles has failed to materialize. Except the most important reason: creating a wedge in the pilot group.
Puh-lease! Domiciles needed for more direct airlining of crews?! Did that reason sound good to you after 4 beers or 5?

Yes, we KNOW we have it good here. And it wasn't from charity by the company. We had to FIGHT for it, tooth and nail. You act like NJA management made this place a wonderful place to work out of the goodness of their hearts.

And continuing to fight for improvements, even in crewfood, is a good thing.

Oh, and just because crewfood and domiciles are the two issues YOU chose to bring up and call 'the only things we have to bitch about', doesn't mean that's all we're pursuing. There are PLENTY of other important issues that we'll be addressing very soon.

We got a good contract last time. But we got it knowing there were many things that would still need to be worked on. And guess what? We're wroking on them.

PS- Again, must remind you that the crewfood program in it's current incarnation was something the company wanted, not the pilots. Naturally, we're trying to fix that abortion.

 

[RNObased]

I asked you a question FG, when you going to answer it???

 

[fischman]

How do you take that quote - aimed at people complaining about what are relatively minor issues - and extrapolate it into an attack on all pilots at NetJets?

Regardless of how you 'perceive' the 'tone' it is a valid point, one that you've already validated in your earlier posts...

Amazing how quickly some people forget the past...

Don't talk to me about the past. I have a degree in U.S. History.

I stand by all my previous posts and I think that if you read what I write instead of hitting the quote button you would see that I never attacked NetJets. If fact, it is the best job I have had.

I was attacking you, the man who supposedly has the highest respect for the pilots of NetJets (remember posting that?) and serve bitch slaps to all. How do you do this you may ask? You call domiciles a trivial issue. The fact that you see it as trivial just illustrates how out of touch with reality you are. I mean: You are out there man!! Way out there.

Crew food trivial? These jets need 3 consumables to fly. 1) fuel 2) coffee 3) food. I want you to take a good look at that menu. Eat nothing but what is on that POS for a week. Tell me how you feel about a 4 hour old salmon fillet after that. Tell me what you think about PB&J after eating nothing else for lunch for a week. Tell me how you feel about old translucent fruit. Tell me how you feel about you food not showing up. Tell me how you like a pork chop as hard as a hockey puck. Tell me how you fell about the company giving out a crappy settlement and continue to violate the contract because they know it will only cost them $25.

BTW, how long do you think I've been with NetJets?

 

[FLYLOW22]

FG,

You STILL don't get it, do you?

Sigh.

I'm afraid it's attitude like yours that's going to cause round two of negotiations to be a repeat of round 1. FLYLOW, you ready?

You know... I was just thinking the same thing myself tonight.

I really think FamGhey LIKES the conflict. I think he knows nothing else and will continue to display the same hum drum, "Me Boss, You peon" mantra that he always has while simultaneously worshiping upper management like some form of Demi Gods that shoot thunder bolts from their arses.

I hope that round 2 will never be necessary because there are no true winners... but of course... we ALL will be ready.

 

[Diesel]

Still pulling on that rope?

Oh thats right they lost yet another lawsuit against a crew member.

We're all pulling together right?

 

[FamilyGuy]

And why do you think that the inefficiency hasn't been fixed???? Any idea???
Maybe because everyone has their own little castle and needs to protect it??? Or maybe the fact that no one in the company is accountable for anything except the folks actually driving the jets around??? This is the fact that chaps my a$$ no end. No one is accountable for any of their actions in CMH. I know of only one person to get the axe for doing some dumb stuff, but then again she cost the company millions.

Accountability.... Family Guy when we going to see some??????

Not sure what you're talking about here. I've personally seen four different leadership teams here in columbus since I joined the company. I've seen a lot of people come and go. Just went through it again last year.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Crew food trivial? These jets need 3 consumables to fly. 1) fuel 2) coffee 3) food. I want you to take a good look at that menu. Eat nothing but what is on that POS for a week. Tell me how you feel about a 4 hour old salmon fillet after that. Tell me what you think about PB&J after eating nothing else for lunch for a week. Tell me how you feel about old translucent fruit. Tell me how you feel about you food not showing up. Tell me how you like a pork chop as hard as a hockey puck. Tell me how you fell about the company giving out a crappy settlement and continue to violate the contract because they know it will only cost them $25.

4 hour old salmon fillet? translucent fruit? PB&J?

Try eating dehydrated beef patty and dehydrated fruit that's been wrapped in brown plastic and sitting in a warehouse for a couple of years.

I ate that stuff for years while serving this country.

Don't bitch to me that 20+ choices on a catered menu that's been vetted by a dietician and voted on and approved in conjunction with the union is somehow substandard. That doesn't hold water, especially when you consider what our soldiers are eating.

So you get $25 if you dont get a meal?

Based on your 'tone' I take it that you find that to be an insult. What does your degree in US history tell you should be the proper remedy for a missed meal?

BTW, how long do you think I've been with NetJets?

My guess? Early 2005.

 

[pilotpat]

NETJETS Profits...UP UP and AWAY!

Sorry. I just had to gunfyter. $55 Million is all I care about from Page 1 right now. That means my application looks better and better each day.

 

[Diesel]

Try eating dehydrated beef patty and dehydrated fruit that's been wrapped in brown plastic and sitting in a warehouse for a couple of years.

I ate that stuff for years while serving this country.

Ahhh yes the old this hotel is better than the tent I was staying in. Yeah here's news I could care less. Thanks for your service but this isn't the military. You want the military go to fedex.

You ate it because you had no choice. We've got a choice. You just don't like our other choice.

Don't bitch to me that 20+ choices on a catered menu that's been vetted by a dietician and voted on and approved in conjunction with the union is somehow substandard. That doesn't hold water, especially when you consider what our soldiers are eating.

While the menu is not my cup of tea that really isn't the problem. The problem is that the quality of the food is substandard. Caterers are hitting price points now instead of quality. The company has told them we really don't care what the quality is just that you're only going to get paid xyz. Rudy's food has gotten to the point it is something I wouldn't even serve to my dog.

Bringing up men in women in armed service is just a way to deflect the argument to try and bring up some sort of guilt. Nope sorry not going to happen. It has no place in this argument. Once again deflect the real argument and do nothing about the issue.

 

[FLYLOW22]

4 hour old salmon fillet? translucent fruit? PB&J?

Try eating dehydrated beef patty and dehydrated fruit that's been wrapped in brown plastic and sitting in a warehouse for a couple of years.

I ate that stuff for years while serving this country.

Don't bitch to me that 20+ choices on a catered menu that's been vetted by a dietician and voted on and approved in conjunction with the union is somehow substandard. That doesn't hold water, especially when you consider what our soldiers are eating.

So you get $25 if you dont get a meal?

Based on your 'tone' I take it that you find that to be an insult. What does your degree in US history tell you should be the proper remedy for a missed meal?



My guess? Early 2005.

You want me to play some patiotic music for you here bud?

A few stars n stripes?

Working with NJA is not to be compared to the armed forces at all. The tax payers pay the bill for the military and those guys are just plain studs.

We are paid for by the Owners... and we are just plain studs.

$25 dollars for a meal? Not worth it. I'd rather go find my own meal. I'm sure that the delay incurred to the Owner is worth more than $25 dollars. To that end, I am not concerned about the paltry award offer from crew food grievances. The safety of the flight, crew and Owners is my priority #1. Playing games with food... not so much.

The point he's trying to make to you shell shocked, jerky eating mind is that we are trying to do our best out here and we have several obstacles working against us.

You and proper nutrition (crew food) are two of them.

Are you part of the solution or the problem FamGhey?

 

[gunfyter]

... and we are just plain studs.

We are PLANE studs....

I made a mistake in the beginning of this thread. I just wanted FG and those like him that said -- we couldn't afford to pay pilots and make profits -- EAT SOME CROW.

BUT FG is too much of a lightning rod around here and the whole thread seems to have become all about him.

BTW I don't see that he has admitted his mistake

 

[Fozzy]

FG,
Thank you for your service. But you are still a tool. I guess we should be happy to have any food at all since people are starving somewhere. And we should be happy for a hotel because there are homeless people.

Your counterpoint sucked. Try again.

 

[hydrarkt]

4 hour old salmon fillet? translucent fruit? PB&J?

Try eating dehydrated beef patty and dehydrated fruit that's been wrapped in brown plastic and sitting in a warehouse for a couple of years.

I ate that stuff for years while serving this country.





.

Oh you are an idiot!! So because you had to eat an MRE or two ( so did I), you think that NJA pilots should have to eat crap too!!! I repeat... you are an idiot!! In case you didn't notice, these are two different ballgames. One is for defending one's country. The other is for flying around the rich, famous and overpampered. I don't think that you can equate the importance of these.
Also, while serving in Bosnia and Kosovo, I ate like a king!! The Army contracted B&R to provide HOT meals 24/7. The food was MUCH better than the crewfood meals.

 

[higgy]

Failed?

That's a pretty harsh assessment for a business model that's been in place for over 20 years and makes a profit.

The point you are missing is that we are talking about improvements. The basic model works, but we all see things that can be done better.

But I would like to hear why you think people have failed here in columbus.

utilization rate of the aircraft is 10% better than a year ago
maintenance availability is 10% higher than a year ago
we fly about about 800 flights per day. What percentage of the dispatches are incorrect?
We order over 1,000 meals a day, what percentage of orders are wrong?
We arrange hundreds of hotel rooms a day, what percentage are wrong?

What is your definition of failure?

I was reffering to the whole domicile/rca idea that u guys came up with that was going so save the company millions not the business model

 

[fischman]

So you get $25 if you dont get a meal?

Based on your 'tone' I take it that you find that to be an insult. What does your degree in US history tell you should be the proper remedy for a missed meal?

$300 is what my degree in US history tells me the payout should be. I'll tell you why. NetJets has a history of violating the contract when it suits them. The only way to get them to comply with that contract is to hit them where it hurts, namely the wallet.

Yes, I find that disregarrding the CBA the company has agreed to insulting. I find the $25 payout as a crutch for the company to continue to violate the contract where ever convienant. Therefore I ask for more than the substandard remedy.

The solution is simple. Comply with the contract we agreed to, and I will never have to file another grievance again.

 

[RNObased]

Not sure what you're talking about here. I've personally seen four different leadership teams here in columbus since I joined the company. I've seen a lot of people come and go. Just went through it again last year.

I'm asking you when people in CMH are going to be accountable for their dumb actions???? I'm asking you when someone besides the pilots are going to be held accountable???