Airlines to Fractionals questions

[LyodChristmas]

Hi guy and girls, I am currently a regional airline pilot with a few questions for anyone who used to work for the airlines and made the jump to a fractional.
I still have a few years before I'd be ready to make a jump anywhere as I'd like to get my time and experience as well as some PIC time under my belt and on my resume before I make a decision. But I thought it would be helpful to get some imput from anyone who has made the switch because it's a career path I'm considering. As we all know the aviation picture could change a ton in the next few years. But, as of right now I don't believe I have any intrest in working at any of the "legacy" carriers. I just don't believe they are headed down a path that is going to be good for them in the long run. Honestly I would not be surprised if some are not around in 5-10 years, I really don't think that the CEO's running these companies learned a thing in the past few years, they shaved some operating cost, but it seems they are headed down the wrong roads again for the future. So I'm trying to think outside the box.

So what do you all think that have made the switch. Do you like it better or worse then the airlines you left?. Pros / Cons? Does your family like your 7 on 7 off better then the schedule you had at the airlines? Just overall anything you'd like to tell me about would be a great help with my research.

Thank you!

 

[sweptwingz]

I'm a former Regional puke. I've literally flown with dozens of former Regional pilots in my 10 years of NJA employment. Without hesitation, every single one of them was very, very, happy they had left the Regional swamp.

As far as the 7/7 schedule, I like it. The 7 day out tour is long, but the 7 days off at home balances that out.

 

[V1 Rotate]

No comparison. I just left my regional job after nearly 5 years and after only being at my fractional for a couple of months, I only wish I'd made the move sooner...and I don't even have to do the 7/7 schedule either. There's so much less pressure and nonsense that no longer exists. Such as: Ramp issues, schedules, in my case there's no union, I get fed VERY well while on the road, tons of hotel and airline points, no security/TSA to deal with, the money is decent, and the list goes on. Overall, generally a much happier work force and more pleasant people to fly with. Good Luck.

 

[dudemize]

Have any of you flown with guys who have quit with a Major to come to a fractional? Furloughed or retired doesn't count. I know our FI pal Archie Bunker quit Delta to come to NJA just curious how prevalant it is.

 

[Joecool3]

Archie Bunker is now with UPS.....i think?

 

[dudemize]

Archie Bunker is now with UPS.....i think?

Correct. He was very happy at NJA during his stay.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Have any of you flown with guys who have quit with a Major to come to a fractional? Furloughed or retired doesn't count. I know our FI pal Archie Bunker quit Delta to come to NJA just curious how prevalant it is.

50 year old, 19 year Airbus Captain from one of the big 5 quit last year to come to our fractional. He's ecstatic here.

52 year old, 23 year Whale Captain from the same airline with our operation as well. He's got a permanent smile on his face.

49 year old, 16 year F/O furloughed from the disaster in PIT/PHX that won't be going back. Ever.

Just a few of the many airline refugees loving life in a fractional bizjet.

And LyodChristmas: Don't wait. If you meet the mins and can get hired, do it ASAP.

 

[Guitar Guy]

So what do you all think that have made the switch. Do you like it better or worse then the airlines you left?. Pros / Cons? Does your family like your 7 on 7 off better then the schedule you had at the airlines? Just overall anything you'd like to tell me about would be a great help with my research.

Thank you!

I made the switch in the second half of 2004 from the regionals to NJA. When I first started regional flying, I had no other goal than a job at a major. However, with the Sept 11 attacks, the airlines and their (mis)management caused me to reconsider.

I've been very happy at NJA. Is everything perfect? No, but I don't think you'll ever find nirvana on earth. That said, both my wife and I very much like the compensation and benefits and she really likes the 7/7 schedule - it makes it so much easier to make plans. As for me, I really do like this sort of flying much more than "A to B to A to C to A..."

You do have something to really think about. If you have an ATP and 2500 hours, you meet the NetJets' minimums. But as you said, you don't have any 121 PIC time. While that's not a requirement per se, having a good amount of 121 PIC time does open other avenues for you, should you ever want to exercise that option.

I think what you need to really think about is whether you consider NetJets to be your career destination. If it is, you should apply ASAP in order to start building that all important seniority. If you aren't so certain, perhaps you should consider staying at your regional and building your PIC time.

Like many other responses that you've received, I really like my job. But this sort of flying isn't for everyone. If you truly believe this is the sort of flying job you want, then do apply ASAP.

Good luck.

 

[blueridge71]

I made the switch as well. Fractional flying is definitely better than the regionals. More days off, better pay, better fringe benefits, more job security.

The seven on is the hardest part. I'm trying to work my way out of debt that I incurred during new-hire years at two regionals and a furlough, so I'm working a lot of overtime which often extends my time away to eight or nine days. The extra money is very nice, but the time away takes a toll.

As to whether it would be better than a major, I don't know. I'm considering whether to apply at some of the big'uns. There are pros and cons to everything.

If you are interested, I would not wait around. It is easy to get golden handcuffs once you make captain pay. I know a lot of regional captains who would like to make a move, but can't afford to. Along those lines, the sooner you make the jump, the sooner you can upgrade at your fractional.

 

[LyodChristmas]

For those that have responded thank you! All the info you've provided has been great, it's nice to post a question and get some good responses. Much different then the ones you get on the regional board.

As of today I don't meet the Min's for most of the fractionals that I would like to apply too, so I'll have to fly for probably another year or so to get my total time up. I've been at PSA for about a year and a half but I've been stuck on reserve (except for a few build up lines) and have only averaged about 40 hours a month. I busted my butt through flight school and flew my butt of flight instructing to get to a regional fast and since I've been here I've mostly been sitting around / getting abused, ha ha!
I figured it doesn't hurt to start researching and planning ahead of time though, and I'd like to thank you all for the advice you have given so far!

If anyone else has any stories please share them, thanks again!

 

[NJA bound]

Never made the switch, but I've been at JetNets for over a year and I like it here, don't see any company I'd leave it for soon.

 

[bailout]

How many Frac guys leave to go to the Regionals? none.....

 

[pilotpat]

How many Frac guys leave to go to the Regionals? none.....

Dude...you read my f'ng mind.


He must work out...

 

[V1 Rotate]

For those that have responded thank you! All the info you've provided has been great, it's nice to post a question and get some good responses. Much different then the ones you get on the regional board.

I think you have part of your answer right there.....

 

[fischman]

I'll never go back to a regional or a major. No scheduling pressures, crew food:erm: , 7 off, decent pay (once you upgrade which if you got hired today at NJA I would assume to be between 3 to 5 years), nice aircraft, no commute (if you live in your domicile), hotel and airline points (I get about 400,000 Hilton points a year; enough for a week in Hawaii or 10 days in Orlando with the kids)

Cons:
F.O. pay sux. At NJA 1st year FO base pay is $39,000 and 5th year pay is $47,405. I would plan on worst case scenario, but I think you could count on about $10,000 more than that if you can get done with IOE quickly and start getting extended days, holiday pay, and OT.

Have you heard about the domiciles? You will be based out of either CMH, TEB, DAL, PBI, or LAX. Plan on that until at least 2010. That is when the contract is amendable.

 

[Archie Bunker]

Correct. He was very happy at NJA during his stay.

Yes I was, and even with a job offer from UPS, it was not an easy decision to quit NJA for me....it was primarily a financial one.

That being said, the fractional lifestyle may not be every pilot's cup of tea. It is a very different type of flying (that I loved), and the level of customer service expected/given by fractional pilots far surpasses any level of customer service I was required to give in the Part 121 passenger world. If any pilot out there feels that it is beneath them to clean and stock the aircraft, or to throw bags, then the job title of NJA pilot is not for you.

If you want a job with an outstanding and stable company, that offers excellent benefits, flying superbly maintained, spotless aircraft all over the place, you can't go wrong with NJA.

 

[Just Peachy]

Nja

Archie...you are too kind...

 

[learflyer]

just hard to get past that fo pay though. 47,500 for fifth yr pay?

 

[Twotter76]

Yup SIC pay is much lower than it should be. BTW that number is for a SIC on the 7/7. If you were on reserve that number would be $56,260. Still not great for five years but keep in mind that it is base salary and you will make more than that. The union has acknowledged that SIC pay isnt where it should be and im sure that will be a hot button item when we go back to negotiations seeing as how there will be many of us who are 3+ year SICs at that point.

 

[CA1900]

Also factor in that medical, dental, and vision insurance is fully paid, which is effectively a couple thousand more. You'll also generally take home most of your per-diem, since you won't spend it if you're eating company-provided crew meals on the road. That's a few thousand more in your pocket. That takes a little of the sting out of it.

 

[NoJoy]

For those that do not live in the domicile-I live in SEA-how do they commute to work for a company like NJA? SEA used to be one of their "gateways" but not anymore. Is moving to your new base the only way to get to work?

 

[imacdog]

You can live anywhere you want, and as long as you can get yourself to domicile by the start of your tour then you are fine. At the end of your tour you can purchase an airline ticket home and the company will reimburse you up to the expense of an airline ticket to your domicile.

 

[Guitar Guy]

For those that do not live in the domicile-I live in SEA-how do they commute to work for a company like NJA? SEA used to be one of their "gateways" but not anymore. Is moving to your new base the only way to get to work?

You can live wherever you want, there is no rule about living within so many miles or minutes of your domicile. However, it falls upon the pilot to get him/herself to the domicile show location at the assigned time on day one of a tour.

Many of the new-hires that I've met who don't live at their domicile drive to/from work. However, some do purchase airline tickets for their commutes. As imacdog pointed out, there is some re-imbursement from the company for the ticket home on the last day which may or may not cover the cost of the ticket one has purchased.

 

[NoJoy]

Thanks for the heads up. So the Co. will re-imburse the ride home, but not the ride to work. It would be nice if there were a way NJA or other fractionals were in the CASS system. Would make commuting easier for pilots. How does the system work for NJI? Does the Co. travel you to and from your domicile as well?

 

[VVJM265]

Just to be clear - NJA will reimburse the ride home up to the cost of what they would have paid to get you back to the domicle. If the cost to where you want to go is less than that, then its a wash. If it costs more than what they would have paid to get you to the domicile, they take it out of your per diem (if you use the compnay credit card) or you just pay out of pocket (if you use your own cc).

So far for my limited experience, it is working out OK on the way home getting back to CRP (I'm DAL based). Most times I come out ahead on the cost of the ticket. Usually its becuse the dummy ticket is to DFW and they have to reimburse me for the cab ride that I would have taken from DFW to DAL.

The night before day 1 I buy take the last SWA flight out @ $98, $13 cab to the Hawthorne Inn near DAL for the NJA rate of $43.

As to the original post - run, don't walk as soon as you can to the fracs. I came here stright from the Navy after 20 yrs and after listening to the horror stories from my indoc classmates, I am ever so grateful that I never had to deal with the regionals. To a soul, they are all happy to be here, as am I.

And to all the other bennies at NJA every one mentioned, don't forget the 50% match on the 401k! That's $7750 free money if you can max it out. One very young single guy came in my class came here from a regional and said that NJA was like a $15k/yr raise for him. His plan was to continue to live on what he was making before and stuff the extra into the 401K.

Best of luck!
VVJM265

 

[Abbey]

just hard to get past that fo pay though. 47,500 for fifth yr pay?

That is way more money than I was making as a 5th year FO at Mesaba and I had a crappy schedule. I also paid 300 bones a month for crappy health insurance. I also had to move to crappy cities, MEM & DTW, because I refuse to give up days off to commute. I don't get a talking to if I am sick. I could go on and on.

My W2 is on pace for $55K on year 2 FO pay at NJA due to the soft money embedded in the contract. I just can't believe I wasted so many years....No one to blame but myself.

 

[skyaddict]

I will also throw my hat in as a former regional dog, that quality of life (along with some other soft money bennies like medical and 401k etc) is much better- certainly at NetJets. As was stated, 7-day tours "feel" more like an airline 5-day. The only major caveat I'd make of QOL at airlines vs fracs is if one lives in an airline base and has a family (or is in a great relationship) and is senior enough to consistently hold (or build) a line with day trips, some weekends off etc. But in today's airline world that tends to be either rare or very temporary.

The lists of pros/cons is rather different from those at an airline. A few frac cons in my experience, since I am not a morning person, is a disproportionate number of early morning shows. Had my share at the airlines but at least you could try and bid around them. Overnights tend to be much shorter for me now on average, but at least there is no such thing as reduced rest, and there is a solid fatigue policy that is never questioned. Besides, at regionals my memory of long overnights were that they were inevitably in some suburban Holiday Inn stuck in podunk anyhow. With 10-12 hour overnights now common, I do find it much harder (though not impossible) to workout and stay fit on frac overnights than I did on airline ones, though the hotels (and hence the gyms) tend to be much better quality. Crew food, while the menu is a bit limited, is far superior to the food court crxp of airline life and I rarely spend a dime of my own on per diem.

Re. doing "dirty work" (bags, cleaning, stocking), before I came over I feared it out of ignorance a bit, but even in the APUless (hot in summer, cold in winter) Ultra I find it is no big deal. There is no pressure to rush here, you do what you have to do and are ready when you are ready. The customer service/human contact element adds variety, and the flying is far less humdrum than going in and out of airline hubs.

I never came here expecting a quick upgrade- I think NJA is more of a tortoise than a hare in the growth race- consistency rather than lightning spurts- so the pay hike delay can be a bit painful, but the clientelle is certainly more stable and less fickle to economic cycles. The current airline growth cycle is fairly strong, but you are right that there will be some big winners but also big losers, even with the global (mostly overseas) pilot shortage.

As was also stated, things are far from perfect, so we need to aggressively keep working on better and better QOL improvements- eg more incentives for less FBO rot- and the current airline growth cycle will provide some ammunition for that struggle.

Finally, if you have your heart set on fracs as opposed to the airlines, I wouldn't delay it to get PIC time, unless you can be sure of a quick upgrade. Of course, at NJA right now there may be important QOL reasons to wait for a domicile of your choice, and that's a different story. Hopefully the silly domicile system will get ditched in due course, but for now its there.

Best of luck

 

[gutshotdraw]

Sky, that was a lucid, well-written, accurate, and helpful post. Clearly not allowed by FI rules :laugh:

 

[LyodChristmas]

Sky- Thanks for the great post! Well you guys have sold me, I want out of the regionals! Only problem is my total time is only about 1500 hours right now. I've been on reserve and build up lines for a year and a half here at PSA and I'm just starting to hold line flying now. Needless to say I only averaged about 40 hours a month on reserve so my progress gaining total time slowed down a lot from when I was flight instructing 100 hours a month. With most fractional mins at 2500 it will be a least another year until I'm at the point where I'm meeting the mins to apply. I will put my resume in this weekend with NJA and maybe CS and Flex just to get the ball rolling, it can't hurt, and maybe they will start a file for me. Gotta start studying for the ATP written and get that out of the way as well!

Again thanks for all the great info and anyone with other stories of making the jump, please share it's great to read some "happy" posts! Nothing like the posts on the regional & major forums!!! I guess for now I'll just continue to go with the "flow" over here and just keep building my resume up the best I can until I'm competitive to get a job at one of the fractionals. I'm sure a lot will change in a years time!

Thanks again!

 

[Guitar Guy]

I will put my resume in this weekend with NJA and maybe CS and Flex just to get the ball rolling, it can't hurt, and maybe they will start a file for me. Gotta start studying for the ATP written and get that out of the way as well!

Just to clarify, you will need the ATP, not just the written test, to get hired at NetJets. I think you may already be aware of that requirement, but I just wanted to make sure so that you can plan accordingly.

Good luck and I hope you reach your goal.