Duane Woerth rumor... YGTBSM!!

[waveflyer]

I call a draw here- This has turned into which came first - leadership or support, chicken or egg.

I've always believed that leadership comes first.But it's not the Leaders- It's not the line pilots. It's the lack of a solvent PLAN!

You get a right plan and the support will be there. Unity will be there. But it's difficult to not be apathetic when all you've seen is failure. There's not a pilot in the world that doesn't care about what's happened and continuing to happen. But they know the current system isn't working- so why work to support it? (not my view either- but i get the argument)

I want no more apologies. No more concessions. From leaders to the most junior private pilot w/ an aspiration-- everybody get on board--- PILOTS GET PAID WHEREVER THEY TAKE A STAND.

Right now-Noone will ultimately take that stand when everyone has SO MUCH TO LOSE under our current seniority system. We created this original seniority system when major corporations didn't fail like they do today. When they didn't go into bankruptcy as easily. You don't have the support you want Occam b/c our seniority system doesn't allow it. Ultimately- we'll hate it- but we'll do whatever it takes to keep our number at our company and avoid starting from scratch somewhere else. Management knows this- they USE IT- and it cuts the legs out from every union MEC and LEC nationwide. With margins this slim- no matter how healthy the company is- we'll never get back what we need with the current 1940's system in place.

I'm not here to criticize ALPA- I'm here to support it along with all pilot unions. But instead of this crazy banter back and forth=- can someone find a SOLUTION?? A plan that will work- instead of what currently does not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You also mention the 90's and 00 and 01. The difference between then and now are the corporate ethics and morals. For example, nowadays, retirees are only seen as a financial drain away from executive pay packages, and not as people who had built their companies. The executives running airlines today have evolved from being just greedy bastards, to morally and ethically-corrupt, ruthless greedy bastards, and we need to approach them as such. We need to evolve as well, and appeasing them is not how it's done.

So we need to become morraly corrupt to deal with them?

What you don't seem to grasp is this country is set up in favor of business and against labor. IOW it is set up so the deck is stacked up against us.... and it has been this way since the late 1800's.

If you look at airline history the bad times far outweigh the good times. I am guessing that you, like me, expect more good times than bad. Well, like me, I am sorry you didn't do your due dillegence and review this career before you invested in it...

From another thread..

Great reading Rez... yet you still think it can be done by pragmatic means.

Well-intentioned, but very naive.

and your way is so effective that it is yielding positive results... oh wait.. your world is a ground hog day movie... the same stuff. You wake up, your world hasn't changed, everyone else is an idiot, the leadership suxs, you bang your head, go to bed and wake up again... rinse repeat....

I'm not here to criticize ALPA- I'm here to support it along with all pilot unions. But instead of this crazy banter back and forth=- can someone find a SOLUTION?? A plan that will work- instead of what currently does not.

A solution... there is no one stop shopping with express lane check out. However, on my shopping list is Membership Involvement.

I don't know why that is a so difficult for angry, fustrated, emotional guys like FD and Doug...oh wait never mind....

 

[waveflyer]

Rez-
that's dumb. Way too simplistic- leaders don't blame the membership. Come up with a plan worth following and you'll get your involvement.

I won't be all that involved for long if the plan continues to be terrible. All of us will swim the atlantic before we are willing to start all over at another company. Let me ask a specific question- how do you solve that problem? How can any of us have leverage while facing that reality?

 

[waveflyer]

Oh- and as far as the deck stacked against labor-- It'll be up to us to take it back-- Original ALPA pilots were far more repressed than us. I don't apologize for the membership anymore than the leadership- to me the x factor is a new system that will work, change, and be flexible in a more dynamic airline environment. If we are not willing to change-- we will continue to see pilots worlds turned upside down and continued losses. We have to come up with some kind of system that will allow changing of companies to be easier. To allow the failure of large companies that are inflated with costs and bad management without us having to bail them out.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez-
that's dumb. Way too simplistic- leaders don't blame the membership. Come up with a plan worth following and you'll get your involvement.

Yet the membership blames the leadership. The leadership that they elected. Look if you don't like your leaddrs then put new ones in.

Come up with a plan. the plan is there. It is called politics. And the masses get noticed. Problem is we have a rally in WashDC and 100 guys out of 60,000 show up. You can't tell me that our pathetic level of membership particaption is good for unions.

I won't be all that involved for long if the plan continues to be terrible. All of us will swim the atlantic before we are willing to start all over at another company.

Yup and that is exaclty what they want... The new 20 year olds with stars in their eyes to show up and take like whores...

Let me ask a specific question- how do you solve that problem? How can any of us have leverage while facing that reality?

It seems to me when my first airline declared BK EVERYONE showed up at the LEC meeting...

Everyone is compalining about the status quo.. that something has to change. Someone has to do something... but yet they aren't willing to do jack themselves.... is that OK? Is that fundamentally sound?

 

[Occam's Razor]

"Pragmatic" means dialogue, begging, pleading, etc. anything but a strike or WOE...

You must use a different dictionary than I do...

If you ask Rez... he's opposed to any WOE action to get the attention of their management. They can bring that big inflatable rat in front of their airline HQ, and the executives will laugh at the dog and pony show because they know there is no meat behind that rat - just a show.

C'mon. You're bright enough to figure out what the rat is for! The media loves it...and I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with employees demonstrating how they view their management? It's a rat...not enriched uranium! We're not trying to blow the place up!

Strike? Heavens forbid we shut the company down! They're telling us we'll all be out of a job if that happens, yet nobody stops and thinks how much do the executives/shareholders stand to lose. That's a big bargaining chip.

Have you been on strike?

I have.

I didn't think walking off my job in '98 was going to cost John Dasburg a lot of money or prestige. I did it only because all other efforts to get a fair contract failed. The law left me only that recourse.

Funny you should mention playing poker. I said it before, I'd love to play poker with ALPA National... they seem to fold every time someone ups the ante on them.

Ha! Ha! Ha! I'd love to play you. I don't think you quite understand ALPA National's role in our contract negotiations...but it reads well, so Party On, Garth!

The executives running airlines today have evolved from being just greedy bastards, to morally and ethically-corrupt, ruthless greedy bastards, and we need to approach them as such. We need to evolve as well, and appeasing them is not how it's done.

Yeah...you hear that about Lorenzo and Icahn a lot...they were greedy, but their morals and ethics were impeccable!

 

[Occam's Razor]

You get a right plan and the support will be there. Unity will be there. But it's difficult to not be apathetic when all you've seen is failure. There's not a pilot in the world that doesn't care about what's happened and continuing to happen. But they know the current system isn't working- so why work to support it? (not my view either- but i get the argument)

I'll assume you weren't in the profession in the 90's then. Perhaps a FDX pilot could post their latest contract "failure"?

I think your frame of reference needs to be expanded.

I want no more apologies. No more concessions. From leaders to the most junior private pilot w/ an aspiration-- everybody get on board--- PILOTS GET PAID WHEREVER THEY TAKE A STAND.

Pilots get better contracts when they have leverage. Period. Pilot groups have achieved big gains mid-contract from "pop-up" leverage.

I like your zeal.

You don't have the support you want Occam b/c our seniority system doesn't allow it.

Really? When did FDX change to an alphabetical assignment system? Do they go by height at SWA? That DAL contract in 2001 was achieved through their innovative use of SAT scores?

Here's an analogy: The commie hoard has invaded America, but you refuse to "unify" with your countrymen because the government raised postal rates one-too-many-times? What's a good excuse for giving up?

You and I agree on our value within this economy. So does Freight Dog, Rez, and every other pilot on this Forum. We sometimes disagree on the way issues are prioritized, and the method we should use to be fairly compensated for that value.

 

[waveflyer]

Occam- You have very intelligent responses. And sounds like you've been through a lot and have seen a lot. I'll yield to that. I understand that things are cyclical, and believe me- though i'm not at a major yet- there have been many that have suffered much more than me lately. I'm not a doom and gloom guy.

I began this industry in the late 90's. I don't view FedEx or SWA contracts as failures. I completely support unions. I just get frustrated at the lack of control I and everyone else has over their career-- and we set it up that way. I'm a capitalist, i want to work hard and make money myself and help my company succeed-- but i hate that i can't bail out on my company for another that i may be qualified for, that is doing a better job, has better management and a better plan- and one that may work better for me for my life- b/c i cannot afford to take the hit on seniority. I don't like that i am ultimately married to my company no matter what direction they may head- when noone else at the airline is half as invested.

I also find it strange that as conservative and capitalist as most pilots tend to be that we'd accept setting up our career in the most socialist way possible. I'm not saying get rid of the unions-NOT AT ALL, WE NEED THEM- and i'll concede that seniority solves many real problems for an operation-- but in the end how many excellent pilots lives are in effect ruined b/c of it? And for no fault of their own. Life's not fair and that happens- but it seems to happen a disproportionate amount of time in the flying business. Is there no hybrid way of doing it? Some way to not take such a huge hit to change companies? Is there no another solution?

I just want the conversation out there-- Maybe someone more brilliant than me will come up with something.

In the meantime-- I completely agree with you and Rez-- I have to work within the system that is there-- and work hard for everyone. There's no excuse not to be involved in your union. But again- groupthink- i think a lot of the leaders tend to circle the wagons against their own group-- "we work, volunteer, you don't- so your opinion does not matter..." That's an easy sentiment- but if you really want more participation you have to create ways for folks to volunteer easily and without huge time commitments- and then allow them to participate as little as they want or can. Once they get their feet wet- most will end up doing more than they thought they would. In the end, you only need so many chiefs-- the indians just have to vote the right way, correct?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez and Occam,

This is going to be a Cliff Notes response...

We are at a huge disadvantage to our opponents in that we can't transport our seniority... not even within a brand....

There isn't a single profession out there like ours where your longevity means nothing if you change employers........ Where else does a 20 year professional come on board like he just got out of college?

We are playing Poker against an opponent (that would be management) who has little to lose.... if he folds, and loses his position, he can start over at nearly the same place he left... in fact, if he changes to a non-airline management postion, he will probably get a raise...

Until we fix that, don't expect much to change.... I know I don't, you might want to lower your expectations accordingly.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Rez and Occam,

This is going to be a Cliff Notes response...

We are at a huge disadvantage to our opponents in that we can't transport our seniority... not even within a brand....

There isn't a single profession out there like ours where your longevity means nothing if you change employers........ Where else does a 20 year professional come on board like he just got out of college?

We are playing Poker against an opponent (that would be management) who has little to lose.... if he folds, and loses his position, he can start over at nearly the same place he left... in fact, if he changes to a non-airline management postion, he will probably get a raise...

Until we fix that, don't expect much to change.... I know I don't, you might want to lower your expectations accordingly.....

That's an excellent point, one of many that have been said on this subject.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I don't know why that is a so difficult for angry, fustrated, emotional guys like FD and Doug...oh wait never mind....

Hey! I may be angry, frustrated, and emotional, but...wait, what was the other thing you said?

Alright, I concede. What bad could possibly come from pilot involvement in their Union? Best of luck to you in accomplishing that. You accomplish that, and that would be something to hang your hat upon.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hey! I may be angry, frustrated, and emotional, but...wait, what was the other thing you said?

Alright, I concede. What bad could possibly come from pilot involvement in their Union? Best of luck to you in accomplishing that. You accomplish that, and that would be something to hang your hat upon.

I agree Doug.... more power to him if he can get more people involved....

Of course what happens when we all get involved and we don't agree... then what...

 

[PCL_128]

I agree Doug.... more power to him if he can get more people involved....

Of course what happens when we all get involved and we don't agree... then what...

It's called democracy, John. You still seem to have a problem understanding that. You just won't always get your way. Deal with it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Occam- You have very intelligent responses. And sounds like you've been through a lot and have seen a lot. I'll yield to that. I understand that things are cyclical, and believe me- though i'm not at a major yet- there have been many that have suffered much more than me lately. I'm not a doom and gloom guy.

Agreed. There is always someone who has it worse than me.

I just get frustrated at the lack of control I and everyone else has over their career-- and we set it up that way.

When we were learning how to fly did we stand around the vending machines and water cooler with the other pilots are say " I hope I am really politically effective as an Air Line Pilot!" Yet that is what it takes. None of us had our expectations aligned when we got into the business.

I'm a capitalist, i want to work hard and make money myself and help my company succeed--

It is too bad our companies don't think like that about us. We are not capitalist. We are labor. Our managements are the capitalists. If we want to be captialist then we should quit the labor force and start a small business.

but i hate that i can't bail out on my company for another that i may be qualified for, that is doing a better job, has better management and a better plan-

Agreed, but it would be very expensive for the companies. Cause if you could do it then so must everyone else be able too. Until the better system comes along...

and one that may work better for me for my life- b/c i cannot afford to take the hit on seniority. I don't like that i am ultimately married to my company no matter what direction they may head- when noone else at the airline is half as invested.

It is too bad the management doesn't view us as partners. After all, we do move thier million dollar assets around...

I also find it strange that as conservative and capitalist as most pilots tend to be that we'd accept setting up our career in the most socialist way possible.

Here is the paradox. We need to accept it and make it work for us.

I'm not saying get rid of the unions-NOT AT ALL, WE NEED THEM- and i'll concede that seniority solves many real problems for an operation-- but in the end how many excellent pilots lives are in effect ruined b/c of it?

And its not becuase pilots are poor performers. In fact our safety recoed is so good that that management comes to work NOT worrying about accidents. Thus they can focus on lower costs: labor costs.

And for no fault of their own. Life's not fair and that happens- but it seems to happen a disproportionate amount of time in the flying business. Is there no hybrid way of doing it? Some way to not take such a huge hit to change companies? Is there no another solution?

Recall it is the free market that we love. Its forces are amazing.

I just want the conversation out there-- Maybe someone more brilliant than me will come up with something.

Everyone brings something to the table. There are allot of smart guys amongts the 60,000 of us. It is just the cynical sandbaggers that are self defeatists that really effect the effectiveness...

In the meantime-- I completely agree with you and Rez-- I have to work within the system that is there-- and work hard for everyone. There's no excuse not to be involved in your union.

There are those that want to radical. Break the law. Unfortunately history has shown that unions that break the law regress.

We have also shown that organized masses in numbers does work. We just need to get guys to activate...

But again- groupthink- i think a lot of the leaders tend to circle the wagons against their own group-- "we work, volunteer, you don't- so your opinion does not matter..."

I reject that union leader mentality. Squash it.

That's an easy sentiment- but if you really want more participation you have to create ways for folks to volunteer easily and without huge time commitments- and then allow them to participate as little as they want or can. Once they get their feet wet- most will end up doing more than they thought they would. In the end, you only need so many chiefs-- the indians just have to vote the right way, correct?

Agreed. Some of the MEC's guard thier sandboxes and those allowed inside. It is easier to rely on known elements than to recruit new guys. That has to change. Also, one of ALPA's flaws is the MEC operate as seperate tribes. There is an effort to makes the tribes more cohesive.... To build the familiarity and trust. I've been quite surprised as to how ineffective we can be... but then we are compared to other unions we are amazingly effective.

We've got lots to do and we need more guys doing it....

 

[enigma]

I don't the mental energy to get too deep into this at the moment, but I'd like to say this: to all of you who have a problem with union leadership - it's real easy to get in the game. I'll almost guarantee you that your own MEC or LEC has an election coming up sometime in the next two years. So go ahead and run for office. Make a difference.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Copilotdoug-

There are allot of hot chicks to be your avatar. Good God man get rid of that self absorbed jackass!

 

[CopilotDoug]

Copilotdoug-

There are allot of hot chicks to be your avatar. Good God man get rid of that self absorbed jackass!

:laugh:

Can you honestly NOT look at that picture and begin laughing??? I found it funny...even slightly nauseating...but hopefully someone else will too (find it funny, that is)

 

[merlindrvr88]

I have.

Have you ever met Captain Woerth and spoken to him for even a couple of minutes?



I haven't had any FPL in the past two months, and I've taken maybe 5 or 6 days total in the last year. My work for ALPA is done almost exclusively on my days off.

I have met "Captain Woerth". What a Joke. He is for ALPO and the airline, and to bad, but I have more total turbine time than that sack of shat. What a loser. Duane Woerth, dork extrordinaire. He desreves to die, and he is typed in nothing. Dwayne sucks donkey balls, and was never a pilot. Screw dwayne

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I have met "Captain Woerth". What a Joke. He is for ALPO and the airline, and to bad, but I have more total turbine time than that sack of shat. What a loser. Duane Woerth, dork extrordinaire. He desreves to die, and he is typed in nothing. Dwayne sucks donkey balls, and was never a pilot. Screw dwayne

Tell us how you really feel, don't keep it bottled up inside

 

[CopilotDoug]

I have met "Captain Woerth". What a Joke. He is for ALPO and the airline, and to bad, but I have more total turbine time than that sack of shat. What a loser. Duane Woerth, dork extrordinaire. He desreves to die, and he is typed in nothing. Dwayne sucks donkey balls, and was never a pilot. Screw dwayne

:laugh:
That's some good stuff! I laughed my arse of with this one!

What time are you two supposed to have lunch?