Senators send letter to TSA owner Hulas

[sqwkvfr]

The politics of fear is finally getting figured out...it's bogus.

Two words:

GLOBAL WARMING.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

9. Never trust foreigners! I only love Americans! Just kidding, Moroni! Wait...Moroni! Come back! I was kidding!

Now that's most likely the funniest thing I have ever read on this board. And who ever said Mr. Smith was just making that stuff up????

 

[sqwkvfr]

haulting LIFE SAVING genetic research

Really? Why don't you show me the law or executive order where Republicans completely outlawed or stopped any kind of stem cell research?

If you really think that Republicans stopped stem cell research, you've failed to educate yourself on this issue and define the term "useful idiot" by playing right into the hands of the party that made this a political issue.

(Subnotes for the impaired: That would be the Democrats ....or is it Democratics?)

 

[flyer172r]

Two words:

GLOBAL WARMING.

hey, global warming is now happening on Mars too, so it must therefore be a real problem that we must do everything to solve.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720024.ece

 

[Indy319FA]

Carter signed deregulation

Reagan fired the controllers

HW Bush was a big buddy of Lorenzo and did nothing while EAL and PA failed

Clinton pulled the rug out from under the NWA and AA guys

W Bush refused to enact a PEB and forced Comair to settle with its pilots.....then allowed airline managements to rape and pillage after 9/11

Given the above history I don't see how anybody can say either Republicans or Democrats are good for airline employees. Unfortunately the old Boll Weavil Democrats (Pro labor, smaller government, lower taxes, strong on defense) are long gone or have held their nose and gone over to the Republicans, leaving the Democratic party the home of the far left. Republicans are not going to buck big business either, leaving those of us in the middle without a home in either party.

One thing is for sure. This is a consumer driven country. This fact was driven home to me while I worked as a CSA for NWA in Michigan. I remember going to friends of my wife's who were members of the UAW and worked in the auto industry, mainly GM. They all had GM cars in the driveway and would moan about foreign competition, but when you looked around their houses all you could see were cheap foreign products bought at Wal Mart. Bottom line, even the most pro labor hardcore union people are only concerned about getting the most product for the best price, no matter where it comes from. When they came to the airport, they would fly non union Valujet/Air Tran over heavily unionized Northwest, because the fare was better (not trying to bash the Air Tran folks, just making a point).

Politicians of both parties are going to do whats best for consumers, labor be danged. That letter from Kennedy and McCaskill is nice, but nothing more than moral support. It sucks, but it is what it is. Until a new party emerges that is pro labor, for smaller government and taxes, and supports a strong defense, those of us in the middle will be left wandering. I am completely unimpressed with any of the presidential candidates announced so far, and I'm not very optimistic that either party is up to the challenges that face our country.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Indy,

Agree with your comments on our consumer-driven country.

RE: "Clinton pulled the rug out from under the NWA and AA guys"

Urban Myth.

The APA asked Clinton to step-in (they had a percieved "unity" issue)...and I was in the room when Clinton's counsel settled our strike (he basically told management what they'd be taking).

It would be nice to have a party like you describe...pro-Labor with fiscal restraint. We're bit too polarized for that now, and unfortunately, many of us seem to take pride in our dogmatic ideologies.

 

[Indy319FA]

Occam,

I was working at NWA during the strike, and was laid of by those pricks after you guys were out for 8 days. The guys I talked to after the settlement had nothing good to say about Clinton, Lindsey, or Rodney Slater....

Too bad you guys had to cave on scope, it hurt us all.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam,

I was working at NWA during the strike, and was laid of by those pricks after you guys were out for 8 days. The guys I talked to after the settlement had nothing good to say about Clinton, Lindsey, or Rodney Slater....

You shoulda talked to guys who were actually there.

Too bad you guys had to cave on scope, it hurt us all.

We're full-circle here. Who will do the most to help us regain a voice in the process? Bush? McCain? Rudy? Obama?

 

[BoilerUP]

Something tells me the plight of labor in general and airline pilots specifically is near the absolute bottom of any Presidential candidate's concerns...just a hair below Iraq, the War on Terror, Social Security, foreign policy, economy, health care, climate change, education, energy independence, gun control, and what color balloons to have at the party conventions.

 

[Shrek]

This post was not supposed to be political...........but have at it - you will NOT change someone's mind that is already made up.

The point that Senators took the time to send the letter was my point and what effect if ANY that it will have on current negotiations........

Back to the pointless political rant..........

 

[Indy319FA]

Who will do the most to help us regain a voice in the process? Bush? McCain? Rudy? Obama?

None of the above.......

I thought I was unimpressed with Bush v Kerry. I haven't been this unimpressed by a group of presidential candidates in a long time. Personally I don't too exited about anybody until after Iowa and New Hampshire. That weeds out the culls and usually you find out who the players are going to be.

Wouldn't mind seeing an independent ticket of Zell Miller/Lieberman/McCain/Thompson. Mix and match who you like. That might make things interesting.

 

[Indy319FA]

Also forgot to mention that two of the biggest donors to Clinton were NWA and Delta.

Wilson and Checchi were both big time Democrats. One of the funniest things I ever saw was when Checci ran in the Democratic primary for Governor against Grayout Davis. Everywhere he went there were NWA employees picketing against him.

You shoulda talked to guys who were actually there.

I also heard he dictated to you guys as well. He may have dictated to them, but you guys had to cave on a lot, particularly scope. I seem to remember a lot of folks saying they weren't coming back till the RJ 85s were flown by NWA crews and that didn't happen......

I backed you guys 100% and was not happy when you caved on scope. Call me crazy, but I think when you guys negotiate a contract in the future you should start with the idea that if its got a red tail, then the crew is an NWA crew. Nothing else matters, because if you get a decent contract, you will lose flying. Hopefully a mainline pilot group has the guts to shut down an airline, long term if neccessary over getting all the flying back on property. It would be the best thing that could happen to all of us, long term. Doesn't help any regional to go to the mat for a good contract, when the mainline carrier will just give their flying to someone who can do it cheaper.......

 

[Occam's Razor]

I thought I was unimpressed with Bush v Kerry. I haven't been this unimpressed by a group of presidential candidates in a long time.

Lack of interest? Sweetheart!...is that you?

Personally I don't too exited about anybody until after Iowa and New Hampshire.

Whoa! It is my wife! She only has "interest" once every four years too!

That weeds out the culls and usually you find out who the players are going to be.

Ah...the "culls"! Those that don't look good on TV or induce the most self-serving donations from wealthy stooges.

And to think some consider the American electorate "jaded"!

Wouldn't mind seeing an independent ticket of Zell Miller/Lieberman/McCain/Thompson. Mix and match who you like. That might make things interesting.

The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse might make it interesting too.

At a minimum, we ought to get away from only electing convicted criminals. Last two Presidential election cycles, that's all we've done.

Isn't there somebody out there (besides me) that agrees with 100% of my positions, and doesn't have a DUI (or two)? Cuz I need someone who always agrees with me...else I might be forced to listen to someone else's opinion...and perhaps modify my bedrock beliefs!

Can't have that!

 

[ballsdeep123]

Hopefully a mainline pilot group has the guts to shut down an airline, long term if neccessary over getting all the flying back on property. It would be the best thing that could happen to all of us, long term. Doesn't help any regional to go to the mat for a good contract, when the mainline carrier will just give their flying to someone who can do it cheaper.......

A guy I was flying with the other day was telling me about something he read in the ALPA magazine, written by a Comair guy. It was kind of an interesting concept. Instead of mainline pilots trying to negotiate scope, they should be negotiating the price at which their regional feed is allowed to fly certain size airplanes. When it becomes just as expensive for mainline management to pay their own pilots what they pay their regional feed pilots, then they will start to bring that flying back to the mainline company.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Also forgot to mention that two of the biggest donors to Clinton were NWA and Delta.

According to this...you're wrong.

Dasburg, John H. Mr. (D.H.L. Airways/Executive), (Zip code: 33149) $2000 to BUSH-CHENEY '04 (PRIMARY) INC. on 06/30/03
Dasburg, Mary Mrs. (n/a/Homemaker), (Zip code: 33149) $2000 to BUSH-CHENEY '04 (PRIMARY) INC. on 06/30/03

Further, Dasburg chaired the Minnesota Bush/Cheney election committee in 2000.

Wilson and Checchi were both big time Democrats.

You're crazy! Read this...then edit your post! Gary Wilson is a staunch Republican! He's donated mucho $$ to the GOP over the years.

I also heard he dictated to you guys as well. He may have dictated to them, but you guys had to cave on a lot, particularly scope. I seem to remember a lot of folks saying they weren't coming back till the RJ 85s were flown by NWA crews and that didn't happen......

Huh? Don't get all "Attorney-General" on me! You're gonna have to recall better than that, Mr. Gonzales. Read this next part v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y so that you understand: I was there. Clinton's boy (Bruce) settled the remaining 6 issues to our satisfaction. Scope had already been settled. The biggest unresolved issue was B-Scale. Management was holding out for a permanent, albeit lesser, B-scale. We wanted it to die.

Guess what?

I backed you guys 100% and was not happy when you caved on scope. Call me crazy,

Done. (See above)

...but I think when you guys negotiate a contract in the future you should start with the idea that if its got a red tail, then the crew is an NWA crew.

Let me write that down...

(sigh)

Before Joe Merchant jumps in here spouting the argot of the sistervictimhood, let me just say, "sounds good to me".

Nothing else matters, because if you get a decent contract, you will lose flying.

Scholars will ponder that paradox for years.

Hopefully a mainline pilot group has the guts to shut down an airline, long term if neccessary over getting all the flying back on property.

Legally? We're full-circle again!

It would be the best thing that could happen to all of us, long term.

What's this "us" stuff? Next time you stall an airplane, I want you to focus on what's best for me before you initiate a recovery. 'Kay?

Doesn't help any regional to go to the mat for a good contract, when the mainline carrier will just give their flying to someone who can do it cheaper.......

The Mother of All Chicken-Or-Egg arguments!

Using that logic, Regional pilots should ignore their contracts and accept their place in life because others are "building time" <---I got that from your profile.

 

[Indy319FA]

Occam,

Did Checci run for the DEMOCRATIC nomination for governor of California?

Was Tom Daschle not sleeping with NWAs biggest lobbyist in DC?

At the famous Clinton Fundraising BBQ, where Robin Williams got in so much trouble for his monologue, did NWA and Delta not have tables up front as two of the biggest donors?

I did not mention individuals at NWA, I was talking about the company as a whole.....

When you guys walked, was it not said that there would be no agreement that would allow RJs with more than 35 seats?

I don't call it dictation when Lindsey basically tells the company something he knows they will accept anyway......

As for Wilson, that was a mistake.........I always lump him and Checchi together.....two sides of the same slimy coin......

PS Quit calling me Sweethart unless you're a nice babe with a smoking body........

 

[ASARJMan]

This is a PR stunt.... if we stopped taking jobs with Hulas then things would change.

More politicians like Uncle Teddy are not the answer...

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=804

More useful insight from Joey. Now he's against Democrats because he wants the Repubs to protect all his mortages (what, 5 properties Joey?) and the interest write-offs!

 

[Indy319FA]

What's this "us" stuff? Next time you stall an airplane, I want you to focus on what's best for me before you initiate a recovery. 'Kay?

Everybody look out for themselves. This is exactly why management will continue to out game ALPA, and in ten or fifteen years, you will see all narrowbody flying outsourced, and what you think of as an airline will just be a brand name, nothing else.

These problems were created at mainline, and can only be solved by mainline pilots. As I said, mainline guys need to get a pair and get this flying back, and do whatever is necessary to get it done. Their arrogance in letting this flying off the property has bitten us all in the rear, and now the 90 seaters you see at the regionals are just the beginning. Quit whining about regionals taking your flying and do what it takes to get it back from your management.

Personally, I don't expect that to happen. I look for mainline guys to look out for themselves, and for the continued expansion of outsourcing as we all are whipsawed against each other.......can't wait to see Occam's response when Mesa is flying his 319......

Using that logic, Regional pilots should ignore their contracts and accept their place in life because others are "building time" <---I got that from your profile.

No, Regional Pilots should do everything they can to improve their quality of life and pay. But the reality is if they negotiate an agreement that gives them quality of life and pay, they are subject to losing flying when their bids are renegotiated. If all of the flying is on one list, it eliminates the whipsaw.

As I said earlier, mainline guys are going to keep looking out for number one until it bites them in the rear. By the time they realize that, it will be too late.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Folks.. don't get polarized around the party. It is the issues that matter...

Search out the politicans that support pilots....

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam,

Did Checci run for the DEMOCRATIC nomination for governor of California?

Yes...Al was a "Democrat" the same way Zell Miller is a "Democrat" and the Rev. Ted Haggard is a "heterosexual christian".

Was Tom Daschle not sleeping with NWAs biggest lobbyist in DC?

Yikes! Our biggest lobbyist was a dude!

At the famous Clinton Fundraising BBQ, where Robin Williams got in so much trouble for his monologue, did NWA and Delta not have tables up front as two of the biggest donors?

Huh? All I remember from that day was Hillary pinching my butt and Al Gore fretting about all the smoke from the grills.

When you guys walked, was it not said that there would be no agreement that would allow RJs with more than 35 seats?

You didn't read slowly as I instructed, did you?

All Scope issues had been T/A'd before August 28th. None of the 6 remaining items involved Scope.

I don't call it dictation when Lindsey basically tells the company something he knows they will accept anyway......

Based on their reactions, which I witnessed firsthand (and you didn't), they did not appear to be "down with the deal". After Lindsay threatened them with a PEB consisting of 3 pro-Labor zealots, they caved.

As for Wilson, that was a mistake.........I always lump him and Checchi together.....two sides of the same slimy coin......

I've noticed your facts often resemble "lumps"...

PS Quit calling me Sweethart unless you're a nice babe with a smoking body........

"nice"? Hardly. But the rest is all accurate!

 

[PCL_128]

These problems were created at mainline, and can only be solved by mainline pilots. As I said, mainline guys need to get a pair and get this flying back, and do whatever is necessary to get it done.

How convenient! You don't have any responsibility, because it's all mainline's fault! And of course, they are the ones who have to fix it!

Sorry, nothing's that simple. We're in this problem for a whole host of reasons. Yes, mainline MECs have given up a lot on scope, but it's easy for us to look back in hindsight and see that. The CRJ was designed as a turboprop replacement. No one thought 15 years ago that a CRJ would be doing a route like IND-RSW or CVG-ATL. The problem, of course, is that it's difficult to stuff the genie back in the bottle years later after you see what's happened.

Throw into the mix the fact that many MECs at regionals have been unwilling to discuss flow-throughs that could have served as the foundation for single-list efforts. Hell, Dan Ford and his merry band of RJDC losers all think that they deserve 767 Captain slots at Delta! Yes, mainline MECs need to work on fixing the scope issue, but regional pilots share the blame, and we'll be required to share the burden to fix it also.

 

[Indy319FA]

Zell Miller is a "Democrat"

I don't seem to remember anybody questioning Zell's credentials when he was a keynote speaker at '92 Democratic convention (you remember, where Clinton picked him to introduce his when he accepted the nomination).

 

[COOPERVANE]

The best macaroni & cheese is made with Velveeta, I don't care what anybody says.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I don't seem to remember anybody questioning Zell's credentials when he was a keynote speaker at '92 Democratic convention (you remember, where Clinton picked him to introduce his when he accepted the nomination).

Correct! And nobody questioned his cred in 2001, when he called Kerry "one of this nation's authentic heroes, one of this party's best-known and greatest leaders – and a good friend" www.counterbias.com/107.html

The issue here is your credibility. What did you see Lindsay do in '98? How much Scope was still on the table at that meeting at the Northland Inn?

We can joust on other issues, Sir SmallerLanceThanMine, but on the topic of what the NWA pilots were doing during the strike of '98, you're naked.

...and, I just threw up in my mouth a little while typing that.

 

[Indy319FA]

Well Occam, my point was that management got the best of you in 98, and on that youre naked.......

 

[Occam's Razor]

Well Occam, my point was that management got the best of you in 98, and on that youre naked.......

'89 - They won
'93 - They won
'96 - We won
'98 (March) - We won
'98 (Aug) - We won
'03 - We won
'06 - They won

My theory: Leverage is transient, so the sun don't shine on the same dog all the time. Having folks in control of the government who will help you ...or at a minimum...not hurt you, is an important variable in the Leverage Equation.

 

[DX Rick]

Big deal. They wrote a letter. Hulas doesn't give a rats azz. That letter is spooled up, and sitting next to his toilet, waiting to be used.

 

[Indy319FA]

Well Occam, we'll just have to disagree. I don't see any of these mainline contracts negotiated since deregulation a win. Just a matter of losing a lot or a little. In fact the only agreement I would see as a win was the contract Comair negotiated in '01, but that was just nullified in bankruptcy.


Have a nice day. I've got a pool to finish setting up.......so I'll talk to you another time....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Quite interesting. Congressmen write a letter to airline management, a true rarity, telling management to shape up and treat works just and fairly and the only thing pilots can do is debate ancilliary semantics and embryo's.

I guess Pilots are quite content and satisfied with thier careers. Their careers are in great shape............

 

[redbook]

Quite interesting. Congressmen write a letter to airline management, a true rarity, telling management to shape up and treat works just and fairly and the only thing pilots can do is debate ancilliary semantics and embryo's.

I guess Pilots are quite content and satisfied with thier careers. Their careers are in great shape............

You said it Rez. I could care less who wrote that letter to Hulas, but at least someone finally did. Something. Anything. Please.