Why would a RJ Capt. leave for CAL, DAL, UAL, UAW, or NW?

[PapaSiera]

Jackass.......

65 hours is the gar. for line holders. 70 hours is the gar. for reserves. Most people wish their line was built to 65 hours but they aren't. The average line is probably 87-89 hours. On reserve if you pickup trips you can fly as much as you want. If your going to quote credit time than take a UAL 12th year FO at 85 hours of credit just like you did for the 12th year express jet CA. We also have a 16% B-C fund. The math is a little different.

Sometime ago, while you were in Jr. high, we had a contract that would make you change your tune. By the looks of your profile you weren't around for the bad times. The industry is on the upswing. By the time you have the flight time to apply to a company like UAL we will probably have a new contract and you would kill to come over here and swing the gear for me! Until then enjoy where you are.

Stillflyn

I am fully aware of the pre 9/11 pay. TRUST ME. I am just not holding out too much hope that it will be that again. You WILL get a raise, but not the 45% it would take you to get back up there. And I know my math was a little flawed, but I have talked to a few Major guys that said they don't see much over guarentee like they had at the regionals, so thats all I have to base it off of. Im sorry if Im wrong. A 65 hr guarentee just seems really low in comparison though.

I didn't really start this thread about me, because I know that I will try to go to a Major, I was just looking at it and thinking WOW....you sure have to be young to be able to take that hit and make up all of that money. Thats all......

 

[Lake Alice]

Dude, if you're happy stay. If not go. It's your career after all. Flying a bigger airplane is just that. In the end your QOL is the only thing that matters.

 

[SteelerMan]

Is anyone worried about the fact that CAL cancelled 1/4 of Express RJ fleet, and will possibly do the same two years from now. Quite frankly I would be a bit nervous if I worked at Express and was planning to stay their for my career. Express has many challenges ahead as a company, and the future their is certainly not guaranteed anymore than anywhere else.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

19 years at Eagle, in my very early 40's.

Last 4 years averaged $122,00/year and 13 days off per month. Not a single junior man, although a few reroutes when last turn canceled. If I flew my base schedule only, I'd be around $95,000/year and average 16 days off/month. Eagle matches 87.5 % of the 8% I put in my 401(k), next year a 100% match. Started that in 1991 and now at $368,000 (got two other funds totalling almost twice that). Drive to work.

Why would I dump that for a 737 at EWR, commuting on a quarter of the pay, no better of a schedule, most likely if I did keep my pension it would be watered down, schedule worse, 401(k) worse and no job security ?

Ah what do I know.................Just another clueless RJ chump who isn't a REAL airline pilot.

But hey, that's o.k. Call me anything you want as I go to the bank with $10 grand every month (not killing myself doing it, either). At this point, it's my best bet. Almost 1 million in investments means I've funded my own retirement in 18-23 years (projected to need 2.6 million-wow !). If Eagle goes south, I'm still in failry good shape.

Keep your 737. I'll leave that slot to the 27 year old, 3000 hour RJ F/O who can make something more out of it.

You showed us.......

Enjoy your Traverse City layover.......

 

[PHXFLYR]

Ok, here's an example: In 1988, Air Wisconsin was the king of the mountain when it came to "feeders", "regionals", "commuters", whatever. The F27 CA's were making $70k (pretty good money for 1988) and the BaE-146 guys who worked the system were making near $100k (not much less than UAL 737 CA's).

None of those guys were going anywhere. It was a great deal.

UAL bought them and look where they are now. Just another commuter airline offering its services up to the lowest...er, I mean the highest bidder.

I've always said my worst day at a major is still better than my best day at a commuter. FWIW. TC

Depends what major. The worst day at my "major" was worse than my worst day at the commuter. And with our new found "buddies" from the East Coast, I don't think it will be getting any better any time soon.

PHXFLYR

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I know a guy at NWA. He flew 71 hours, I think, and got credit for 100 in a recent month. In another month ALL of the -9 and -319/-320 reserves had 90 hour of credit or more. After 90, you can pick up more trips to make more, or turn them all down-they can't junior man you to make you do the trip.

NWA WON'T be hiring new guys at $20K per year. If they try a "B" scale, no one will apply. The pilot market is already very, very tight at the regional level.

When NWA/UAL/AA/USAir and everyone else are hiring, it will be a NIGHTMARE for the recruiting and airline mgmt people. Airline mgmt got what they wanted-low cost pilots. Now they will reap the benefits-no one to fill seats. It'll be great for all of us that are looking for jobs.

I wonder how long it will take for SWA to drop their PIC mins under 1000???

cliff
YIP

 

[pilotyip]

SWA will go back to the 1000 hr PIC next summer due to a lack of sufficient applicants with greater time and the need to select pilots with skills beyond stick time. . It is part of the worldwide pilot shortage, high time pilots are being skimmed out of the available pool and there is no one to replace them.

 

[Deuce130]

If they try a "B" scale, no one will apply.
cliff
YIP

Wanna bet?

 

[ATRCA]

Remember your company is a mere sub-contractor. You may have had a good run. but the future is not in small jets. Why did CO ax flying for what is it? 69 of your small jets? Cost! Your independent operation doesn't stand a chance (can you say Indy Air?)

I too had a great run at a regional, very senior, check airmen, etc, took a pay cut to leave, etc. That was 9 years ago, never regreted it, very happy I left. A code share change later, my former company is a mere shell of what it was, my timing was prefect!

Bottom Line, regionals are places to get time and move on, don't get trapped by your paycheck. Majors are not the most stable companies in world, but traditionally regionals are even less stable.

Trust me. I have no plans to stay. I will however wait for the right opportunity at the right company -vs- the get the hell out anywhere attitude of a few years ago.

 

[Alchemy]

Two Words:

Brand Scope

eroded as it may be

 

[Freight Dog]

People will still line up left and right for a chance to fly a Boeing or an Airbus regardless of the pay.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

People will still line up left and right for a chance to fly a Boeing or an Airbus regardless of the pay.

Forgot to add the word "Some" in front of your post. SJS is an illness not all of us suffers from

 

[pilotyip]

Remember 15 yrs ago a regional had no more than 29 seats, and almost no point to point flts, just hub support. But as regionals expand into bigger airplanes 100+ seats, the economics of the smaller airline change. Then the regional definition will be further blurred. Compass will be a look at that type of operation.

 

[scarlet]

think of age 60 going to 65 that will add some years to upgrade..It is a shame on CAL for all the years they had great relations with Expressjet people....I hope they do well at their new adventure...

 

[Lake Alice]

The land scape of the industry has changed. Years ago you would have been crazy to pass up a legacy carrier. The money, schedule and benefits were simply unmatched. Today that multi million dollar retirement is not there. Heck, the movement that is supposed to happen at Cal could significantly slow when the age rule changes and then what. Now your sitting in the right seat like a pilot at any other carrier. If a regional guy gets weekends off and makes enough to live comfortably then whats the incentive to move on. I know people say the regionals come and go but they never truly dissapear.

 

[Wesb737fo]

So I was doing some looking around on airlinepilot central, and I just can't believe those FO payscales. What makes it worse is the fact that they have lower guarentees than regionals have. DAL has a 65 hr guarentee, Continental has a 72 hr guarentee, AA has a 64. Then you look at those payrates and you are making less than an RJ captain for a long long time. Since the upgrades seem to look like atleast 10 yrs (except CAL) why is it that everyone is jumping at the majors. The FO pay is AWFUL. At United, a 2nd year FO will make $42,000. a 5th yr FO will make $65,000. In contrast lets say your a 5 year Captain at ExpressJet. You will bring home $75,000 easy. I would say most people at XJT get between 85 and 90 hrs of credit a month. So I guess XJT guys make more than Legacy drivers. That makes SICK. I don't know how ya'll do it. PLEASE tell me that you atleast get more than 65 HOURS a month of credit. Otherwise I guess the LCC's are not that bad of an option. Atleast you get more than 65 hrs of pay. And you can upgrade in 2-3 yrs. Maybe I am missing something here, but how can you be in this industry for as many yrs as it takes to get to a Major, but make less than you did flying your regional jet.

My rant is over.

PS-(I DID NOT PROOF READ THIS SO THERE MAY BE SPELLING ERRORS)

Wow...five pages of replies...I don't have time to read them all so pardon me if I repeated some others thoughts....

1. I bet you don't work for Mesa

2. I bet you haven't been around long enough to realize what you are saying.

3. Regional Airline Management's love guys like yourself.


Bottome line...it sucks to work for a regional carrier.

 

[Quimby]

So I was doing some looking around on airlinepilot central, and I just can't believe those FO payscales. What makes it worse is the fact that they have lower guarentees than regionals have. DAL has a 65 hr guarentee, Continental has a 72 hr guarentee, AA has a 64. Then you look at those payrates and you are making less than an RJ captain for a long long time. Since the upgrades seem to look like atleast 10 yrs (except CAL) why is it that everyone is jumping at the majors. The FO pay is AWFUL. At United, a 2nd year FO will make $42,000. a 5th yr FO will make $65,000. In contrast lets say your a 5 year Captain at ExpressJet. You will bring home $75,000 easy. I would say most people at XJT get between 85 and 90 hrs of credit a month. So I guess XJT guys make more than Legacy drivers. That makes SICK. I don't know how ya'll do it. PLEASE tell me that you atleast get more than 65 HOURS a month of credit. Otherwise I guess the LCC's are not that bad of an option. Atleast you get more than 65 hrs of pay. And you can upgrade in 2-3 yrs. Maybe I am missing something here, but how can you be in this industry for as many yrs as it takes to get to a Major, but make less than you did flying your regional jet.

My rant is over.

PS-(I DID NOT PROOF READ THIS SO THERE MAY BE SPELLING ERRORS)

You don't even know what you don't know yet. Save your post, go back & reread it in a couple of years. Let us know what you think about staying then.

Don't bypass an upgrade either.

 

[PuffDriver]

19 years at Eagle, in my very early 40's.

Last 4 years averaged $122,00/year and 13 days off per month. Not a single junior man, although a few reroutes when last turn canceled. If I flew my base schedule only, I'd be around $95,000/year and average 16 days off/month. Eagle matches 87.5 % of the 8% I put in my 401(k), next year a 100% match. Started that in 1991 and now at $368,000 (got two other funds totalling almost twice that). Drive to work.

Why would I dump that for a 737 at EWR, commuting on a quarter of the pay, no better of a schedule, most likely if I did keep my pension it would be watered down, schedule worse, 401(k) worse and no job security ?

Ah what do I know.................Just another clueless RJ chump who isn't a REAL airline pilot.

But hey, that's o.k. Call me anything you want as I go to the bank with $10 grand every month (not killing myself doing it, either). At this point, it's my best bet. Almost 1 million in investments means I've funded my own retirement in 18-23 years (projected to need 2.6 million-wow !). If Eagle goes south, I'm still in failry good shape.

Keep your 737. I'll leave that slot to the 27 year old, 3000 hour RJ F/O who can make something more out of it.

I can think of a lot of reasons. 1) an even better schedule--as in working 9 days a month 2) even more pay--as in 160K
3) even better destinations and layovers--as in sipping Italian wine in Rome 4) even better equipment--as in 777, 787

Enjoy your RJ, and I will enjoy my 777. It's all about personal choice after all--or about you trying to brag.

PapaSiera--believe me when I say suck it up and go to a legacy or a top cargo carrier. 5 airlines have taught me that. The legacies likely have bottomed, and if they tank further everyone else will as well.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Is anyone worried about the fact that CAL cancelled 1/4 of Express RJ fleet, and will possibly do the same two years from now. Quite frankly I would be a bit nervous if I worked at Express and was planning to stay their for my career. Express has many challenges ahead as a company, and the future their is certainly not guaranteed anymore than anywhere else.

You are TOTALLY WRONG! Independence Proved So. Or, wait a minute... um.........

 

[StaySeated]

To answer your question, skip the compensation section and read your scheduling section. Then go read a few of the LCC's and the major's scheduling section. You are comparing apples to dog sh1t. Not only will everyone fly over guarantee at the airlines you mentioned, they will do it with scheduling flexibility a regional could never dream about. I am not slamming you, the pay rates in the industry are disgraceful and will never get back to where they once were, but QOL is a night and day improvement once you jump ship from the regionals. Good luck where you end up.

 

[Alchemy]

To answer your question, skip the compensation section and read your scheduling section. Then go read a few of the LCC's and the major's scheduling section. You are comparing apples to dog sh1t. Not only will everyone fly over guarantee at the airlines you mentioned, they will do it with scheduling flexibility a regional could never dream about. I am not slamming you, the pay rates in the industry are disgraceful and will never get back to where they once were, but QOL is a night and day improvement once you jump ship from the regionals. Good luck where you end up.

Actually I would put xjet's scheduling section up against most of the LCC's and many of the major's. I know for a fact that it's much better than CAL's. I'm not trying to brag, it's simply the truth. Unfortunately you can see where this contract has landed xjet in terms of CPA flying, it puts a huge target on your back even with payrates that weren't and still aren't industry leading for the equipment. That is the main detriment of being a regional pilot.....if you negotiate anything decent you are simply drop-in replaceable by another group that looks more appealing.

Xjet is what it is, and I see no reason to stay there unless you're over 40 and in the top 25% of seniority (or aren't qualified for a major, like me), same with skywest, comair, asa, republic, wisconisn, eagle, etc etc etc. Barring that it still just doesn't make a lot of sense financially or quality of life-wise.

 

[Non Union]

Actually I would put xjet's scheduling section up against most of the LCC's and many of the major's. I know for a fact that it's much better than CAL's. I'm not trying to brag, it's simply the truth.

Ain't gonna stay 'dat way for long, dude. Sorry.

 

[puddlejumper101]

to each their own...but I am on year one at Southwest and will make more here or break even on year one at Southwest than on year 7 at that lovely regional in ATL. Thats just pay...lets don't even discuss scheduling. First month out on the line at Southwest was better than any schedule I had ever had at America's S##i!!est Airline in 7 years. Benefits? No comparison except DAL flight bennies were pretty good...but who cares. Long story short...unless you are over 40 or maybe 45...it's a no brainner...I can only speak for Southwest though...don't know much about the other majors and LCCs hiring. the QOL is another world...it really is...and I commute. I don't even want to imagine how nice it is to live in domicile.

 

[N2264J]

SJS is an illness not all of us suffers from

Are there never any Shiny New Jets at the mainline?

Is SJS an affliction only suffered by regional pilots?

 

[Lake Alice]

We have that at B6 as well. Thats one of the phrases you'll here the blue juice guys saying. "But you're getting to fly new equipment!".

 

[Vaquero]

I think if you're truly happy and comfy at a regional, why leave? I would say the only reason for leaving would be for the money, but even that is coming up short these days.

I don't know about UAL and CAL, but an 8th year MD80 f/o at AA is right at $100/hr, and next year it'll be $104/hr. Granted, these are 30% less than what we used to make, but a HECK of a lot more than what I would've made as an 8th year ACA pilot. And if we get close to what we want with the next contract, we should be at close to $120/hr on 8th year pay. Throw in the trip/duty rigs, our A and B fund (if it doesn't go away) and overall quality of life and you have a pretty attractive offer in most cases.

If I was still at a regional today, I'd still want to move on just to get out of that "third world pilot" mentality that I experienced on a daily basis when I was there. It sucked being looked down upon by other "real" airline pilots. Plus, I couldn't stand the overall regional mentality and depending on the major's code share affiliation.

But like everyone else said, it really depends on your situation. If you are middle aged, pretty senior and comfy at the regionals, it might not make financial sense to leave.

JMO, 73

Apparently you have no clue that some latin american airlines make more than airlines such as AA, UA even WN. Take Aeromexico for example, a captain on the 73 takes in around 220 US a year. 777 pilots even more. Find some other expression now if you want to talk low pay cause seems like even " third world country" pilots make more. Sad ain't it.

 

[aa73]

Apparently you have no clue that some latin american airlines make more than airlines such as AA, UA even WN. Take Aeromexico for example, a captain on the 73 takes in around 220 US a year. 777 pilots even more. Find some other expression now if you want to talk low pay cause seems like even " third world country" pilots make more. Sad ain't it.

Vaquero,

I think you took my "third world pilot" expression a little out of context. I was not referring to other airlines outside of the US - I was referring to the belittling that most major airline pilots would throw me with their holier than thou attitudes as they passed me on the concourse, or jumpseating. "Oh, you're just a commuter pilot flying 29 passengers in a "little" Jetstream..." "I am a "real" airline pilot because I fly 737s" or whatever. Sorry if I offended you with that term. What I really meant to say was, I was often treated as "less of a pilot" since I was a commuter/regional pilot. It always ticked me off.

p.s. I grew up in Europe, so I know dang well what the foreign airline pilots make.

regards, 73

 

[Vaquero]

got it, thanks.

 

[iluvetops]

Apparently you have no clue that some latin american airlines make more than airlines such as AA, UA even WN. Take Aeromexico for example, a captain on the 73 takes in around 220 US a year. 777 pilots even more. Find some other expression now if you want to talk low pay cause seems like even " third world country" pilots make more. Sad ain't it.

This is very interesting!!!We have a few pilots from Mexicana and AeroMexico here in the desert but they all came to Dubai to fly Shiny New Jets and for more bucks!!!

Why would any one want to leave a US 220/year for a mere US 110/Year B777/Airbus captain job, and if they start as an FO it would only be about US 60/year!!!!

 

[ExAF]

No Desert For Me

Why would any one want to leave a US 220/year for a mere US 110/Year B777/Airbus captain job, and if they start as an FO it would only be about US 60/year!!!!

I don't know...Maybe they don't want to live in the desert? I'll never go back to that part of the world if I can help it. No job is worth it to me. I'd rather live in a van down by the river. But then again, to each his own.