AirTran contract, must haves

[-9Capt]

It looks like we might be seeing a completed TA in the next month or two. I think it's vital to know what is important to you before the document comes out so you can ask specific questions during the roadshows. The NC will certainly be in favor of it, and will most likely be handing out rose colored glasses and try to blow sunshine up your a$$.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here but...Let's see:

Scope/General:
*Bind AirTran Holdings, with out that, nothing else matters. Better buyout/merger/fragmentation language.
*3year duration

Compensation:
*Without getting into specific numbers, big boost to years 1-6, moderate boost years 7-12 and a 12yr FO pay scale.
*Holiday pay premium
*Double time for all involuntary flying (reassign and all drafts)
*5hr daily minimum
*75hr guarantee for lineholders, 78hr for reserves in exchange for more industry standard reserve pay rules.
*No guarantee reduction for loss of touching trips during vacation period or CDO integration.
*Training events pay greater of missed trips or 5hrs/day.
*28hrs per week of vacation, max out at 5 weeks/yr
*Keep the LVI protections, believe me this is huge, anyone who worked here before we got this can tell you what the scheduled used to be like.

Scheduling:
*Do away with Section 5 sub-sections (general, planning, daily ops) this has been the single greatest grievance generating factor in the current contract.
*Opentime remains available until picked up or 48hrs prior to report time.
*If any company duty is properly placed on your schedule (training, trips, rsv) it is paid in full if removed involuntarily by the company.
*Online access to view true reserve coverage on any given day.
*No resv. on buildup lines, trips only, all CDO's or all regular trips, no mixing.
*No ready reserve.
*Ability to view your number for callout while sitting reserve, online access.
*Mandatory Long Call Reserve
*No changing of reserve availability periods, ever.
*Omit requirement for a resv to call sched after a trip.
*Fix SAP, allow a pilot to drop below 75hrs during SAP.
*Keep the current 12hr duty day.
*Monthly limitations on re-assignments, just like we have with DL drafts.
*Remove "extraordinary personal hardship" requirement to decline Re-assign, DL draft, JA.

Sick/LTD/OJI/Hotels/Grievance/Retirement etc:
*Increase sick time accrual to at least 5hrs/month
*Remove $5000 monthly cap on LTD.
*Remove requirement for company requested Dr note
*Remove 6 month employment requirement to use sick time.
*Remove 70hr cap on OJI benefit.
*Better quality layover hotels, list certain brands as "unacceptable"
*Optional group policy for Loss of License insurance.
*Speed up the grievance process, omit requirement for union to re-submit grievance to CPO (redundant/unnecessary), more system board meetings.
*Increase B-fund contributions 1% per year.
*Lower the insurance costs.

 

[Ridgeback]

WOW, that might be the best contract ever....GOOD LUCK

 

[-9Capt]

WOW, that might be the best contract ever....GOOD LUCK

Not even close.

Let me guess, you got into this business after 9/11/01?

 

[Lowrider717]

add...

Eliminate $25 JS fee, & Reciprocal unlimited for all.

 

[Heilborn1]

Where's the demand for the dropped j/s charges that many stated were a must have?

 

[NuGuy]

.....

 

[FIREMAN]

It looks like we might be seeing a completed TA in the next month or two. I think it's vital to know what is important to you before the document comes out so you can ask specific questions during the roadshows. The NC will certainly be in favor of it, and will most likely be handing out rose colored glasses and try to blow sunshine up your a$$.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here but...Let's see:

Scope/General:
*Bind AirTran Holdings, with out that, nothing else matters. Better buyout/merger/fragmentation language.
*3year duration

Compensation:
*Without getting into specific numbers, big boost to years 1-6, moderate boost years 7-12 and a 12yr FO pay scale.
*Holiday pay premium
*Double time for all involuntary flying (reassign and all drafts)
*5hr daily minimum
*75hr guarantee for lineholders, 78hr for reserves in exchange for more industry standard reserve pay rules.
*No guarantee reduction for loss of touching trips during vacation period or CDO integration.
*Training events pay greater of missed trips or 5hrs/day.
*28hrs per week of vacation, max out at 5 weeks/yr
*Keep the LVI protections, believe me this is huge, anyone who worked here before we got this can tell you what the scheduled used to be like.

Scheduling:
*Do away with Section 5 sub-sections (general, planning, daily ops) this has been the single greatest grievance generating factor in the current contract.
*Opentime remains available until picked up or 48hrs prior to report time.
*If any company duty is properly placed on your schedule (training, trips, rsv) it is paid in full if removed involuntarily by the company.
*Online access to view true reserve coverage on any given day.
*No resv. on buildup lines, trips only, all CDO's or all regular trips, no mixing.
*No ready reserve.
*Ability to view your number for callout while sitting reserve, online access.
*Mandatory Long Call Reserve
*No changing of reserve availability periods, ever.
*Omit requirement for a resv to call sched after a trip.
*Fix SAP, allow a pilot to drop below 75hrs during SAP.
*Keep the current 12hr duty day.
*Monthly limitations on re-assignments, just like we have with DL drafts.
*Remove "extraordinary personal hardship" requirement to decline Re-assign, DL draft, JA.

Sick/LTD/OJI/Hotels/Grievance/Retirement etc:
*Increase sick time accrual to at least 5hrs/month
*Remove $5000 monthly cap on LTD.
*Remove requirement for company requested Dr note
*Remove 6 month employment requirement to use sick time.
*Remove 70hr cap on OJI benefit.
*Better quality layover hotels, list certain brands as "unacceptable"
*Optional group policy for Loss of License insurance.
*Speed up the grievance process, omit requirement for union to re-submit grievance to CPO (redundant/unnecessary), more system board meetings.
*Increase B-fund contributions 1% per year.
*Lower the insurance costs.

How many airlines have you gone through? How many more do you want to go through befor you retire?

 

[Lowrider717]

How many airlines have you gone through? How many more do you want to go through befor you retire?

Another kool aid drinker.

The NPA's initial proposal was more than reasonable.

 

[-9Capt]

How many airlines have you gone through? How many more do you want to go through befor you retire?

Answer to question #1...1
Answer to question#2....0

_________________________________________________

My questions to you flame thrower...

#1. If pilot salaries/compensation determine the financial strength and vitality of an airline, as you alluded to, why are Midway, Vanguard, National, Western Pacific and Independence not still around?

#2. Who is the highest paying/best compensated passenger airline in the US? (hint, they're also the most profitable, never furloughed, been around for decades, continue to expand, and they paint their airplanes brown and orange).

#3. Aren't you the same guy who said "looks like another 2 years without a contract" when it was announced that AP won the last presidential election?

I can answer #3 for you...yes, you did ...You were wrong then, and you're wrong now.

Give it a rest firebug, if you're happy being a bottom feeder, please go somewhere else.

 

[FIREMAN]

Answer to question #1...1
Answer to question#2....0

_________________________________________________

My questions to you flame thrower...

#1. If pilot salaries/compensation determine the financial strength and vitality of an airline, as you alluded to, why are Midway, Vanguard, National, Western Pacific and Independence not still around?

#2. Who is the highest paying/best compensated passenger airline in the US? (hint, they're also the most profitable, never furloughed, been around for decades, continue to expand, and they paint their airplanes brown and orange).

#3. Aren't you the same guy who said "looks like another 2 years without a contract" when it was announced that AP won the last presidential election?

I can answer #3 for you...yes, you did ...You were wrong then, and you're wrong now.

Give it a rest firebug, if you're happy being a bottom feeder, please go somewhere else.

Do you really think AP or anyone at the NPA had anything to do with the company starting to negoiate? Or, was it the fuel hedges and great bookings and increased fares?

 

[Frequency]

#2. Who is the highest paying/best compensated passenger airline in the US? (hint, they're also the most profitable, never furloughed, been around for decades, continue to expand, and they paint their airplanes brown and orange).

They (SWA) also made $587 Million last year, Airtran made around $30 Million. Thats a big difference. Your not quite there yet.

 

[-9Capt]

Jeez, you like to ask a lot of questions.

The union can only exert so much pressure. They did an OK in the form of press releases and the like, the rest is up to us.

We, the pilots, on the other hand have absolutely no idea how to behave during contract negotiations, absolutely none. We have guys picking up all the opentime they can, captains flying as FO's, pilots flying aircraft with known mechanical defects to mx bases before writing them up, asking ATC for shortcuts, calling for catering/cleaning/gates, not using the APU, the list goes on. We can't even get a quarter of the pilot group to wear a stupid friggin' union pin or put tag their bag for Christ sake!!

We have no one to blame for this drawn out negotiations but ourselves. We, as a group, are to blame, certainly not your union. They've been begging for our help for 2 years now.

Oh wait, what was your question? Do I think the union had anything to do with the companys willingness to negotiate? was that it?

Here's what I think, correct me if I'm wrong. The company was waiting to see who would win the last presidential election. When they found out their candidate lost, the began engaging in meaningful negotiations almost immediately.

So no, I don't blame the union for the slow pace of negotiations, I blame the pilot group. If I was JL, I'd have done the same thing.

 

[-9Capt]

They (SWA) also made $587 Million last year, Airtran made around $30 Million. Thats a big difference. Your not quite there yet.

That only helps to prove my point, thanks.

 

[Sunking]

They (SWA) also made $587 Million last year, Airtran made around $30 Million. Thats a big difference. Your not quite there yet.

I think you missed -9CAPT's point.
Which was airlines don't fail solely because of pilot compensation. If that was the case then vanguard and the likes should have made it because of low paid pilots. SWA pays the pilot group well and still succeeds in the industry.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

They've been begging for our help for 2 years now.

BS. They don't need help. Else they would return phone calls/emails when someone repeatedly volunteers to help. I wouldn't lift a finger for these guys.

 

[AFcitrus]

-9Capt,

I agree with all of your contract requirements plus a 3 year cost of living payback (not just a signing bonus).

Let's just hope our NC has had the ability to get these things into the TA. Something tells me this is going to be a very weak TA for the pilots.

I'm hearing nasty rumors about eliminating the emergency sick bank and
the reserves taking a step backwards in pay and QOL instead of hundreds of steps forward.

For some reason the company wants a TA before May (maybe MEI shareholder meeting, our shareholder meeting, etc). Who knows? The fact is the "ball is in our court" and now is the time to slam dunk it. We've waited for two years for the company to have some incentive to have meaningful negotiations and now it appears the time has come.

Let's just hope our NC hasn't sold us all out for some fringe benifits they'll receive if they get a signed TA by May. Remember that little "koom-by-yaw" pow-pow the BOD, NC and Company had for dinner a few weeks back. After that is when the pace of TA'd sections really picked up. Would love to have been a "fly on the wall" at that dinner.

Cheers,

 

[SkiFishFly]

... Do I think the union had anything to do with the companys willingness to negotiate? was that it?

Here's what I think, correct me if I'm wrong. The company was waiting to see who would win the last presidential election. When they found out their candidate lost, the began engaging in meaningful negotiations almost immediately.

So no, I don't blame the union for the slow pace of negotiations, I blame the pilot group. If I was JL, I'd have done the same thing.

I think there is something else going on here. The company got the 2 year extension they wanted for one thing. They decided that they need this contract settled for some other reason - possibly something to do with the Midwest deal or perhaps there is something else us mushrooms don't know. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I like your list however I do not expect we will see anything close to that.

 

[-9Capt]

BS. They don't need help. Else they would return phone calls/emails when someone repeatedly volunteers to help..

Not exactly the type of "help" I was referring to, but being that you brought it up...anyone who wants to volunteer should contact the respective committee chairperson directly, email addresses follow every e-weekly update and are on the website.

 

[Lifter]

Enough is enough

Jeez, you like to ask a lot of questions.

The union can only exert so much pressure. They did an OK in the form of press releases and the like, the rest is up to us.

We, the pilots, on the other hand have absolutely no idea how to behave during contract negotiations, absolutely none. We have guys picking up all the opentime they can, captains flying as FO's, pilots flying aircraft with known mechanical defects to mx bases before writing them up, asking ATC for shortcuts, calling for catering/cleaning/gates, not using the APU, the list goes on. We can't even get a quarter of the pilot group to wear a stupid friggin' union pin or put tag their bag for Christ sake!!

We have no one to blame for this drawn out negotiations but ourselves. We, as a group, are to blame, certainly not your union. They've been begging for our help for 2 years now.

Oh wait, what was your question? Do I think the union had anything to do with the company's willingness to negotiate? was that it?

Here's what I think, correct me if I'm wrong. The company was waiting to see who would win the last presidential election. When they found out their candidate lost, the began engaging in meaningful negotiations almost immediately.

So no, I don't blame the union for the slow pace of negotiations, I blame the pilot group. If I was JL, I'd have done the same thing.

SunkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Frequency
They (SWA) also made $587 Million last year, Airtran made around $30 Million. Thats a big difference. Your not quite there yet.

I think you missed -9CAPT's point.
Which was airlines don't fail solely because of pilot compensation. If that was the case then vanguard and the likes should have made it because of low paid pilots. SWA pays the pilot group well and still succeeds in the industry.


I think you've both missed the point.

You state:
We, the pilots, on the other hand have absolutely no idea how to behave during contract negotiations, absolutely none. We have guys picking up all the opentime they can, captains flying as FO's, pilots flying aircraft with known mechanical defects to mx bases before writing them up, asking ATC for shortcuts, calling for catering/cleaning/gates, not using the APU, the list goes on. We can't even get a quarter of the pilot group to wear a stupid friggin' union pin or put tag their bag for Christ sake!!

But I was hired for a professional pilot position. It is my job to fly as safely, efficiently, and professionally as possible. I knew the contract and pay when I got hired, and I was glad to be hired. Have you ever tried to figure out why you are in a minority (of bag taggers), but we still carried the presidential elections to keep the negotiation equitible? Well maybe there are people that want representation as a professional group with reasonable demands, and not a group that thinks turning off your logo light is an effective negotiating technique. You list goes on, of normally expected duties of professional pilots doing there job, and you want to just sit there and do nothing but the minimal amount of work.

If you look back at SWA pre 9/11 they weren't the highest paid group, they were the ones working their butts off, doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do. What did it get them, well they are now the industry leader in pay and QOL. Their company takes care of them and they do the same for the company.

If you think AirTran can compete without a lower CASM then the legacies I think you are mistaken. It doesn't mean we need to be the lowest paid, but please don't repeat history and ask for United plus 1.

I know, you are probably saying what a koolaide drinking A-hole. But you are wrong. I'm just a guy that has enough self respect and integrity not to short change the company I work for. You sound proud of your accomplishments of not taking short-cuts to save fuel, calling for catering, and as you so proudly stated "the list goes on."

If you want professional pilots following your lead maybe you need to have something worth following.

I agree, when the company violates the contract, it needs to be seriously and firmly addressed through our union representatives.


AirTran won't fail solely because of pilot pay. It will fail if you get the following of people want who are willing to only do the minimum amount of work. The long term effect on the customer is something you can't change once we get a contract. What it will take to change a $15 million annual profit into a loss, is just what your work ethics could do.

Do I want improved QOL and pay ---YES. Do I think doing the minimum amount of work is the way to get it---NO. Why is it so hard for people to understand SWA pilots just didn't one day say we want more $ and the company just gave it to them. It took years and ALL the pilots working harder than the next guy and making the company profitable.

You guys post on here so much, I thinked you've actually started to convince yourself you are making sense. The work rules are in place for the same reason most of the rule exist today. 99% of the rules are made to cover up the lack of work of 1% of the workforce. Hope you sleep good at night using your emergency sick time for SAP3, because you get it back twice as fast. There is that 1% that will probably cost the rest of us our emergency sick time. Ask yourself that integrity question and keep wondering why more professional guys aren't following your lead.

Sorry for the rant

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

SunkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Frequency
They (SWA) also made $587 Million last year, Airtran made around $30 Million. Thats a big difference. Your not quite there yet.

I think you missed -9CAPT's point.
Which was airlines don't fail solely because of pilot compensation. If that was the case then vanguard and the likes should have made it because of low paid pilots. SWA pays the pilot group well and still succeeds in the industry.


I think you've both missed the point.

You state:
We, the pilots, on the other hand have absolutely no idea how to behave during contract negotiations, absolutely none. We have guys picking up all the opentime they can, captains flying as FO's, pilots flying aircraft with known mechanical defects to mx bases before writing them up, asking ATC for shortcuts, calling for catering/cleaning/gates, not using the APU, the list goes on. We can't even get a quarter of the pilot group to wear a stupid friggin' union pin or put tag their bag for Christ sake!!

But I was hired for a professional pilot position. It is my job to fly as safely, efficiently, and professionally as possible. I knew the contract and pay when I got hired, and I was glad to be hired. Have you ever tried to figure out why you are in a minority (of bag taggers), but we still carried the presidential elections to keep the negotiation equitible? Well maybe there are people that want representation as a professional group with reasonable demands, and not a group that thinks turning off your logo light is an effective negotiating technique. You list goes on, of normally expected duties of professional pilots doing there job, and you want to just sit there and do nothing but the minimal amount of work.

If you look back at SWA pre 9/11 they weren't the highest paid group, they were the ones working their butts off, doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do. What did it get them, well they are now the industry leader in pay and QOL. Their company takes care of them and they do the same for the company.

If you think AirTran can compete without a lower CASM then the legacies I think you are mistaken. It doesn't mean we need to be the lowest paid, but please don't repeat history and ask for United plus 1.

I know, you are probably saying what a koolaide drinking A-hole. But you are wrong. I'm just a guy that has enough self respect and integrity not to short change the company I work for. You sound proud of your accomplishments of not taking short-cuts to save fuel, calling for catering, and as you so proudly stated "the list goes on."

If you want professional pilots following your lead maybe you need to have something worth following.

I agree, when the company violates the contract, it needs to be seriously and firmly addressed through our union representatives.


AirTran won't fail solely because of pilot pay. It will fail if you get the following of people want who are willing to only do the minimum amount of work. The long term effect on the customer is something you can't change once we get a contract. What it will take to change a $15 million annual profit into a loss, is just what your work ethics could do.

Do I want improved QOL and pay ---YES. Do I think doing the minimum amount of work is the way to get it---NO. Why is it so hard for people to understand SWA pilots just didn't one day say we want more $ and the company just gave it to them. It took years and ALL the pilots working harder than the next guy and making the company profitable.

You guys post on here so much, I thinked you've actually started to convince yourself you are making sense. The work rules are in place for the same reason most of the rule exist today. 99% of the rules are made to cover up the lack of work of 1% of the workforce. Hope you sleep good at night using your emergency sick time for SAP3, because you get it back twice as fast. There is that 1% that will probably cost the rest of us our emergency sick time. Ask yourself that integrity question and keep wondering why more professional guys aren't following your lead.

Sorry for the rant

Well said. Thank you!:beer: