ALPA's BLUE RIBBON PANEL, AGE 60 JOKE

[PCL_128]

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Didn't ALPA already poll the members in regards to the age change matter? Will this random sample include probationary members?

Yes, ALPA polled the membership about two years ago on this issue. If memory serves, over 60% voted to keep the age policy as-is. I'm not sure if the new poll will include apprentice members or not. When I last talked with Captain Prater when I was in Herndon about a month ago, this new poll was just an idea. I'm glad he decided to do it, but I hope he includes probies and furloughs. I'll try to find out tomorrow what the sample group consists of.

 

[CopilotDoug]

My point is that ALPA has no power and this is just another example of extensive posturing to show that they tried when they will fail.

Absolutely right, Labbats. I'd like to add ALPA knew they would fail, too.

 

[sweptback]

Well ALPA just posted that they have pulled a RANDOM 1000 name out and will be calling them starting april 1st to see what the pilots think of the proposed rule.

I am sure random means we are calling 999 pilots who are 55-60 from a major airline that lost pensions and 1 shmuck from MESA. Just so it looks fair.

I got polled just the other day. I made sure to tell them the regional pilot party line with respect to Age 60. I also got polled last time around as well.

 

[Fred Rogers]

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=421159&docketid=26139

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Well ALPA just posted that they have pulled a RANDOM 1000 name out and will be calling them starting april 1st to see what the pilots think of the proposed rule.

I am sure random means we are calling 999 pilots who are 55-60 from a major airline that lost pensions and 1 shmuck from MESA. Just so it looks fair.

100% wrong. The phone polling is conducted by the Wilson Polling Center and is completely random and statistically accurate based on the sample size.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I don't know why they wasted my dues sending me the pamphlet in the mail. Anyone taking 5 seconds to skim through it can see that the FAA has already made up its mind. This is a done deal, regardless of what any of us think. Just more ALPA waste of time and energy only to shrug its shoulders at the 11th hour and give in.

The panel is important because we need to develop a strategy for how to manage through this change, should it come in the next 2 1/2 years. The panel's job is NOT to decide whether or not we should support Age 60/65, etc. There are a lot of issues that are tentacles to changing the age and it isn't going to be a simple change, should it occur. There will be cost impacts, staffing impacts, regulatory impacts, etc. Who is going to pay for this stuff? The company? The pilot group? Which segment of the pilot group? Old guys? Young bucks? How do we keep everyone rowing in the same direction with all of these issues? ALPA will undoubtedly comment in the public comment period on the NPRM. Part of the commentary will be a direct result of the work the BRP does, including from the phone polling and web survey.

-Neal

 

[John Pennekamp]

100% wrong. The phone polling is conducted by the Wilson Polling Center and is completely random and statistically accurate based on the sample size.

-Neal

Uh huh.

The Wilson Polling questions are so loaded, that its impossible not to get the answer ALPA wants. They've been polling our pilots for years. It's nothing accurate.

Remember: "There are lies, d@mn lies, and statistics".

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Uh huh.

The Wilson Polling questions are so loaded, that its impossible not to get the answer ALPA wants. They've been polling our pilots for years. It's nothing accurate.

Remember: "There are lies, d@mn lies, and statistics".

The BRP wrote the poll along with Phil Comstock. There is no predisposition on the part of the BRP as to the outcome of the poll. That would be outrageous if there were. The very first question of the poll is a simple yes/no question on this issue. There is nothing loaded in this poll and that is a fact.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

My favorite thing was the quote by CAPT. Bebee
"The Panel is a well-balanced group, including pilots with a range of flying experience."
Wow, let me see. I see one person on the panel under the age of 40 and one person from a regional airline. Yep, seems very well-balanced to me. Thanks ALPA, where can I forward the next 2% of my paycheck to?

While the panel is weighted towards the older side, that doesn't mean that it will bias the work product. Just looking at the 7 pilots on the panel, I see a non-sched cargo pilot who is a safety expert (Atlas), a scheduled cargo pilot who is a retirement expert (FedEx), a female Captain who is a safety expert (United), an RJ captain who is the chairman of the national aeromedical committee (ExpressJet), an LCC Captain who is the VP Finance/Admin for ALPA (US Airways), a flight time/duty time expert (Delta), and a former NC Chairman for ExpressJet who is now an FO at Continental.

There is definitely a cross-section of the industry being represented.

-Neal

 

[John Pennekamp]

The BRP wrote the poll along with Phil Comstock. There is no predisposition on the part of the BRP as to the outcome of the poll. That would be outrageous if there were. The very first question of the poll is a simple yes/no question on this issue. There is nothing loaded in this poll and that is a fact.

-Neal

Except that ALPA has made Phil Comstock a millionaire. He's not likely to displease his number one customer.

Oh, and ALPA needs to save face by showing overwhelmingly that the pilots suddenly switched and support age 65. Otherwise ALPA is fighting a battle they know they will lose because it's already been decided.

Yes. They have every motivation to bias the poll.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Except that ALPA has made Phil Comstock a millionaire. He's not likely to displease his number one customer.

Not sure about that.... are you?

Wilson poll is comprised of union employees and they are used by many other unions.. including the APA....

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Except that ALPA has made Phil Comstock a millionaire. He's not likely to displease his number one customer.

Oh, and ALPA needs to save face by showing overwhelmingly that the pilots suddenly switched and support age 65. Otherwise ALPA is fighting a battle they know they will lose because it's already been decided.

Yes. They have every motivation to bias the poll.

I can't keep pointing to the sky and telling you it is blue when you are convinced it is red. There is no bias in the polling questions. The very first question proves that.

How do you know Phil Comstock is a millionaire? The guy drives around in a Prius for pete's sake.

-Neal

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Neal-

I have to tell you...its quite fustrating.... When I represent ALPA to outside organizations, (gov't, safety, industry, etc..) I am treating with plenty of respect. When I represent ALPA to its own members I get kicked....

 

[John Pennekamp]

I can't keep pointing to the sky and telling you it is blue when you are convinced it is red. There is no bias in the polling questions. The very first question proves that.

How do you know Phil Comstock is a millionaire? The guy drives around in a Prius for pete's sake.

-Neal

Driving a Prius makes him practical and environmentally responsible, not poor (they aren't cheap). I know several people who drive a Prius to work and are millionaires. And their other car is a Cadillac or a Benz. Don't judge a person by their car.

Now back to the issue, Phil has been working with labor groups as their sole provider of polling for over 25 years. Yes. he's a millionaire.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Now back to the issue, Phil has been working with labor groups as their sole provider of polling for over 25 years. Yes. he's a millionaire.

so are a few airline pilots........... and most senior airline management.... your point?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Now back to the issue, Phil has been working with labor groups as their sole provider of polling for over 25 years. Yes. he's a millionaire.

Point?

He provides an important service to ALPA at a fair price. I've worked with him a lot over the years and his assistance with removing bias from questions, and with analyzing responses has been invaluable.

He is a good employer. His company is 100% union, and he treats them well. He offers inner-city dwellers with bleak prospects the chance to earn a very good salary doing important work to help unions.

He's passionate about helping working-class Americans protect and enhance their careers...and, in a noteworthy departure from the rest of corporate America...he practices what he preaches!

Yeah...let's all bash Phil Comstock Only don't let his employees hear your doing it...they'll kick your butt!

Do any of us feel that way about our CEO's?

'Nuff said.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I don't disagree with anything you said about Phil. Phil Comstock is a great guy who does great things for his customers while setting an example by taking care of his employees.

The point is that Phil's smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him by pissing off his #1 customer by making them look bad. EVER seen a Wilson poll that DOESN'T tout the ALPA party line? Ever seen one that tells an MEC "nope, this isn't working and you wasted millions of dollars... your pilots aren't behind you"?

You won't see one.

Enough said.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I don't disagree with anything you said about Phil. Phil Comstock is a great guy who does great things for his customers while setting an example by taking care of his employees.

Cool! We agree. Sorry if I misunderstood the point of your post.

The point is that Phil's smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him by pissing off his #1 customer by making them look bad. EVER seen a Wilson poll that DOESN'T tout the ALPA party line? Ever seen one that tells an MEC "nope, this isn't working and you wasted millions of dollars... your pilots aren't behind you"?

Yes, and yes. I helped write them for a while and on questions where we were trying to gauge the satisfaction of the pilot group with ALPA, the questions were always of the type that had an option for expressing displeasure. Usually, the responses were:

- Strongly Agree
- Slightly Agree
- Neither Agree or Disagree
- Slightly Disagree
- Strongly Disagree
- Unsure (must be volunteered only)

They also used more than one question to gauge satisfaction. In addition to "My MEC is doing a good job." (answer options above), there was usually a question that asked you to compare with other pilot groups in the industry. The responses to a single question (other than pure "yes or no" questions like "How are you going to vote on the T/A?") were seldom used to measure the mood of the pilots. We looked for other indicators and watched the trend.

 

[John Pennekamp]

So the point is that regardless of how respectable Phil Comstock is, the Wilson polling is nothing more than a feel good excercize to back up ALPA's policies and convince everyone that they are doing what's best for us..

 

[John Pennekamp]

Cool! We agree. Sorry if I misunderstood the point of your post.



Yes, and yes. I helped write them for a while and on questions where we were trying to gauge the satisfaction of the pilot group with ALPA, the questions were always of the type that had an option for expressing displeasure. Usually, the responses were:

- Strongly Agree
- Slightly Agree
- Neither Agree or Disagree
- Slightly Disagree
- Strongly Disagree
- Unsure (must be volunteered only)

They also used more than one question to gauge satisfaction. In addition to "My MEC is doing a good job." (answer options above), there was usually a question that asked you to compare with other pilot groups in the industry. The responses to a single question (other than pure "yes or no" questions like "How are you going to vote on the T/A?") were seldom used to measure the mood of the pilots. We looked for other indicators and watched the trend.

As I said, have you EVER seen a Wilson poll that doesn't tout the party line?

The worst you'll get is MEC approval in the 70 percentile and "areas for improvement" as the MEC gets recalled (Mesa).

I have no illusion that the Wilson polling won't show a slim majority of ALPA members are now in favor of age 60. But we shall see. If I'm wrong, then I'll publicly apologize, but I don't think I'll have to.