ALPA's BLUE RIBBON PANEL, AGE 60 JOKE

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Except that ALPA has made Phil Comstock a millionaire. He's not likely to displease his number one customer.

Not sure about that.... are you?

Wilson poll is comprised of union employees and they are used by many other unions.. including the APA....

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Except that ALPA has made Phil Comstock a millionaire. He's not likely to displease his number one customer.

Oh, and ALPA needs to save face by showing overwhelmingly that the pilots suddenly switched and support age 65. Otherwise ALPA is fighting a battle they know they will lose because it's already been decided.

Yes. They have every motivation to bias the poll.

I can't keep pointing to the sky and telling you it is blue when you are convinced it is red. There is no bias in the polling questions. The very first question proves that.

How do you know Phil Comstock is a millionaire? The guy drives around in a Prius for pete's sake.

-Neal

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Neal-

I have to tell you...its quite fustrating.... When I represent ALPA to outside organizations, (gov't, safety, industry, etc..) I am treating with plenty of respect. When I represent ALPA to its own members I get kicked....

 

[John Pennekamp]

I can't keep pointing to the sky and telling you it is blue when you are convinced it is red. There is no bias in the polling questions. The very first question proves that.

How do you know Phil Comstock is a millionaire? The guy drives around in a Prius for pete's sake.

-Neal

Driving a Prius makes him practical and environmentally responsible, not poor (they aren't cheap). I know several people who drive a Prius to work and are millionaires. And their other car is a Cadillac or a Benz. Don't judge a person by their car.

Now back to the issue, Phil has been working with labor groups as their sole provider of polling for over 25 years. Yes. he's a millionaire.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Now back to the issue, Phil has been working with labor groups as their sole provider of polling for over 25 years. Yes. he's a millionaire.

so are a few airline pilots........... and most senior airline management.... your point?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Now back to the issue, Phil has been working with labor groups as their sole provider of polling for over 25 years. Yes. he's a millionaire.

Point?

He provides an important service to ALPA at a fair price. I've worked with him a lot over the years and his assistance with removing bias from questions, and with analyzing responses has been invaluable.

He is a good employer. His company is 100% union, and he treats them well. He offers inner-city dwellers with bleak prospects the chance to earn a very good salary doing important work to help unions.

He's passionate about helping working-class Americans protect and enhance their careers...and, in a noteworthy departure from the rest of corporate America...he practices what he preaches!

Yeah...let's all bash Phil Comstock Only don't let his employees hear your doing it...they'll kick your butt!

Do any of us feel that way about our CEO's?

'Nuff said.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I don't disagree with anything you said about Phil. Phil Comstock is a great guy who does great things for his customers while setting an example by taking care of his employees.

The point is that Phil's smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him by pissing off his #1 customer by making them look bad. EVER seen a Wilson poll that DOESN'T tout the ALPA party line? Ever seen one that tells an MEC "nope, this isn't working and you wasted millions of dollars... your pilots aren't behind you"?

You won't see one.

Enough said.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I don't disagree with anything you said about Phil. Phil Comstock is a great guy who does great things for his customers while setting an example by taking care of his employees.

Cool! We agree. Sorry if I misunderstood the point of your post.

The point is that Phil's smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him by pissing off his #1 customer by making them look bad. EVER seen a Wilson poll that DOESN'T tout the ALPA party line? Ever seen one that tells an MEC "nope, this isn't working and you wasted millions of dollars... your pilots aren't behind you"?

Yes, and yes. I helped write them for a while and on questions where we were trying to gauge the satisfaction of the pilot group with ALPA, the questions were always of the type that had an option for expressing displeasure. Usually, the responses were:

- Strongly Agree
- Slightly Agree
- Neither Agree or Disagree
- Slightly Disagree
- Strongly Disagree
- Unsure (must be volunteered only)

They also used more than one question to gauge satisfaction. In addition to "My MEC is doing a good job." (answer options above), there was usually a question that asked you to compare with other pilot groups in the industry. The responses to a single question (other than pure "yes or no" questions like "How are you going to vote on the T/A?") were seldom used to measure the mood of the pilots. We looked for other indicators and watched the trend.

 

[John Pennekamp]

So the point is that regardless of how respectable Phil Comstock is, the Wilson polling is nothing more than a feel good excercize to back up ALPA's policies and convince everyone that they are doing what's best for us..

 

[John Pennekamp]

Cool! We agree. Sorry if I misunderstood the point of your post.



Yes, and yes. I helped write them for a while and on questions where we were trying to gauge the satisfaction of the pilot group with ALPA, the questions were always of the type that had an option for expressing displeasure. Usually, the responses were:

- Strongly Agree
- Slightly Agree
- Neither Agree or Disagree
- Slightly Disagree
- Strongly Disagree
- Unsure (must be volunteered only)

They also used more than one question to gauge satisfaction. In addition to "My MEC is doing a good job." (answer options above), there was usually a question that asked you to compare with other pilot groups in the industry. The responses to a single question (other than pure "yes or no" questions like "How are you going to vote on the T/A?") were seldom used to measure the mood of the pilots. We looked for other indicators and watched the trend.

As I said, have you EVER seen a Wilson poll that doesn't tout the party line?

The worst you'll get is MEC approval in the 70 percentile and "areas for improvement" as the MEC gets recalled (Mesa).

I have no illusion that the Wilson polling won't show a slim majority of ALPA members are now in favor of age 60. But we shall see. If I'm wrong, then I'll publicly apologize, but I don't think I'll have to.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The point is that Phil's smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him by pissing off his #1 customer by making them look bad. EVER seen a Wilson poll that DOESN'T tout the ALPA party line? Ever seen one that tells an MEC "nope, this isn't working and you wasted millions of dollars... your pilots aren't behind you"?

You won't see one.

Enough said.

Not "enough said." Why? Because yes, I have seen one. Seen several actually. Both at the XJT MEC as well as CAL MEC. Early 2002 for XJT and late 2004 for CAL. There were other times but those are just two glaring examples. Phil then went on to help instruct these two MEC's on how to improve its abysmal polling numbers. But hey, if it makes you feel better to spout unwarranted rhetoric on the issue, go for it.

-Neal

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not "enough said." Why? Because yes, I have seen one. Seen several actually. Both at the XJT MEC as well as CAL MEC. Early 2002 for XJT and late 2004 for CAL. There were other times but those are just two glaring examples. Phil then went on to help instruct these two MEC's on how to improve its abysmal polling numbers. But hey, if it makes you feel better to spout unwarranted rhetoric on the issue, go for it.

-Neal

Neal-

It is all about trying to match up ones perception with reality. In other words, people have decided in thier mind how things are. Then when an event occurs or outside facts become apparent they don't try to accept it for what it is rather they try and make it fit their pre-loaded disposition. I'm sure there is a psychological term for it....

I just call it it... It is what it is.....

 

[Speedtape]

It's all a clique at the "top" of ALPA. These are the same dooshbags in highschool and college who were "everybody's friend."

We called 'em "BuddyF*ckers" cause as soon as you turned your back on 'em, they'd do whatever they needed in order to get to the "top" including screwing their friends over.

It's a huge circle jerk at the top, and they're all scratching eachother's backs.

You sound like a victim--of life? Are you the same ****************************** bag in high school with the big black framed glasses, wearing a slide rule on your belt, that sat in the corner and picked his nose? Do you always try to find delusional excuses for your own mistakes, inadequacies, and inability to participate in normal social activities? Did you prefer dissecting frogs and other small pickled animals, or dating females? Your observations are not in touch with the realities! Go back to your lower level managment cubicle and polish your nameplate! You and your weak attacks matter to know one as your out of touch conspiracy theories are shallow, if any depth at all!

 

[Speedtape]

In the aftermath of corporate pension relief via bankruptcy court and the George Bush controlled bankruptcy judges( really only lawyers with no judicial experience), there are more people in ALPA who now have a different view on age 60 rule? Money matters!

 

[CopilotDoug]

You sound like a victim--of life? Are you the same ****************************** bag in high school with the big black framed glasses, wearing a slide rule on your belt, that sat in the corner and picked his nose? Do you always try to find delusional excuses for your own mistakes, inadequacies, and inability to participate in normal social activities? Did you prefer dissecting frogs and other small pickled animals, or dating females? Your observations are not in touch with the realities! Go back to your lower level managment cubicle and polish your nameplate! You and your weak attacks matter to know one as your out of touch conspiracy theories are shallow, if any depth at all!

Well sir, Black Framed glasses WERE in at the time...

But I guess I struck a chord with you, I'm guessing some sort of ALPA rep?
ALPA is like any other large organization, in that it is really like a septic tank...The Big Pieces Float to the Top. How does that make you feel?

And if you try to steal that as ALPA's new slogan, I'll sue you.

 

[Speedtape]

Well sir, Black Framed glasses WERE in at the time...

But I guess I struck a chord with you, I'm guessing some sort of ALPA rep?
ALPA is like any other large organization, in that it is really like a septic tank...The Big Pieces Float to the Top. How does that make you feel?

And if you try to steal that as ALPA's new slogan, I'll sue you.

What are your accomplishments in life? Black framed glasses were never in, and the same for your bow tie and pink suspenders. Have you been hiding out in a small shack in Montana? "The big pieces float to the top?" Have you been playing in your poo-poo again?

Institutions, although not perfect, have built the world through team efforts.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Institutions, although not perfect, have built the world through team efforts.

Truly profound words. Your talents are under appreciated here on Flight Info, Sir! I for one am going to nominate you for a MacArthur Fellows grant! Quick, we need to contract a sculptor to build a bronze likeness of this modern day philosopher.

Back to Reality: Are you an ALPA rep?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If ALPA is so bad then why aren't they being decertified? When in fact CAL and FedEx just came back..... Why is ALPA an Int'l union representing pilots globally....??

Again..ALPA is far from perfect..has made allot of mistakes....

 

[CopilotDoug]

If ALPA is so bad then why aren't they being decertified?

You know why Rez, you've answered the question MANY times. Laziness. Nothing against them, but I think the ones with any real intitiative left to go make money elsewhere.

 

[DX Rick]

You know why Rez, you've answered the question MANY times. Laziness. Nothing against them, but I think the ones with any real intitiative left to go make money elsewhere.

They're "65000 members STRONG!!"
But yet they can't get anyone to volunteer or any other events.

 

[CopilotDoug]

They're "65000 members STRONG!!"
But yet they can't get anyone to volunteer or any other events.

If you were to break it down into how many pilots ACTUALLY want to be involved with ALPA, how many do you think that would be? 5 or 6? And they're all posting here on FI?

 

[JoeMerchant]

If ALPA is so bad then why aren't they being decertified?

At the regional level, it is because the majority don't really care one way or the other. The majority don't vote, attend meetings, know the difference between LEC & MEC, or know the names of their reps. They are simply marking time waiting for PIC time so they can go to the show. Most of them are more likely to be able to name someone on American Idol than one of their reps.

That being said, there are a growing number at ASA that are talking about it. Is it a majority? NO. However a majority don't get involved one way or the other....

 

[CopilotDoug]

At the regional level, it is because the majority don't really care one way or the other. The majority don't vote, attend meetings, know the difference between LEC & MEC, or know the names of their reps. They are simply marking time waiting for PIC time so they can go to the show. Most of them are more likely to be able to name someone on American Idol than one of their reps.

In effect, the regionals are like 121 training academies. You made a good point Joe, how many people say they are going to Regional XYZ and they want to make a career of it? Some do...but I'd say the majority are all biding their time before they can put their paperwork in with FedEx (Note: FedEx, in this post, represents the supposed "Dream Job" people ultimately set as a goal.)

 

[JoeMerchant]

In effect, the regionals are like 121 training academies. You made a good point Joe, how many people say they are going to Regional XYZ and they want to make a career of it? Some do...but I'd say the majority are all biding their time before they can put their paperwork in with FedEx

Exactly!

Rez can preach on about ALPA PAC and getting involved, however the majority of regional pilots are too busy updating their logbooks. This has now become a chicken and egg problem. Were the regionals created first, and became a stepping stone job, or did the stepping stone jobs become regionals which became half of the domestic flying? In either case, we have a problem Herndon.... The mainline MEC's thru ALPA created this mess.... and ONLY they can solve it. Instead they seem to deflect blame back on the very membership that pays for their services. Any other "service" would be fired for creating a problem, and the blaiming the customer for the problem, and demanding even more money to solve it....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

At the regional level, it is because the majority don't really care one way or the other. The majority don't vote, attend meetings, know the difference between LEC & MEC, or know the names of their reps. They are simply marking time waiting for PIC time so they can go to the show. Most of them are more likely to be able to name someone on American Idol than one of their reps.....

Agreed!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez can preach on about ALPA PAC and getting involved, however the majority of regional pilots are too busy updating their logbooks. This has now become a chicken and egg problem. Were the regionals created first, and became a stepping stone job, or did the stepping stone jobs become regionals which became half of the domestic flying?

So apathy is identified! Now what?

In either case, we have a problem Herndon....

Whoa... I thought apathy was the problem. Now you are saying its Herndon or is Herdon just the place to report the problem?

Can we work on the apathy?

The mainline MEC's thru ALPA created this mess.... and ONLY they can solve it.

FlightInfo we have a problem. C'Mon Joe.... I am willing to be a part of the solution.... are you?

Instead they seem to deflect blame back on the very membership that pays for their services. Any other "service" would be fired for creating a problem, and the blaiming the customer for the problem, and demanding even more money to solve it....

I think the solutions are complex. Point at "they or Them" only is myopic. THe reason why I preach the PAC or other personal involvement is because that is something that one can directly control right now!!

 

[CopilotDoug]

I think the solutions are complex. Point at "they or Them" only is myopic. THe reason why I preach the PAC or other personal involvement is because that is something that one can directly control right now!!

I know the solutions are complex. The personal involvement thing is a little cliched. A little too "feel good" if you will.

 

[Speedtape]

I know the solutions are complex. The personal involvement thing is a little cliched. A little too "feel good" if you will.

What are your solutions, oh Great Pundit?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So apathy is identified! Now what?

I have just accepted it as a reality. As with any reality, deal with it and show leadership in the face of said reality.

Whoa... I thought apathy was the problem. Now you are saying its Herndon or is Herdon just the place to report the problem?

Can we work on the apathy?

Apathy is a problem for both sides of this issue. You asked why ALPA isn't being decertified and answered that it is because of apathy. Apathy is working against both you side of the argument and my side. The fact is, I have accepted it... you have not.

Herndon is the one who has to deal with the problem if they still want my business. They work for me, I don't work for them. If they can't provide the service, then it is time to find someone who can.

FlightInfo we have a problem. C'Mon Joe.... I am willing to be a part of the solution.... are you?

That depends on what the "solution" is. ALPA's current "solution" - the answer is NO. If ALPA wants to work towards single bargaining units within a brand, then I am all ears. If ALPA wants to continue and ignore that problem and tell me I need to give money to the PAC, and vote Democratic, then I will take a pass.

 

[CopilotDoug]

What are your solutions, oh Great Pundit?

What? And dispense the solutions to ALPA's problems on FI for FREE?!? Nice try there, penny pincher! Contact my secretary and she'll set you up with an appointment. Or she'll just tell you to get bent. Depends on what time of the month you call her.