From the ALPA Age 60 Website...

[Falconjet]

Why do we need another poll? The last one was rigged as much as possible in favor of supporting a change. It clearly showed that the majority preferred that the rule remain. The senior ALPA national guys in Herndon are just looking for ways to again tell the majority that you know what is best for us and will do whatever is in your best interests.

You should do whatever you can to emphatically tell those 4 Captains that the majority of ALPA members are against the rule change. If you get the chance you should personally tell that to Capt Prater as well. I for one would appreciate that.

Good luck to you on the panel and thanks for your efforts.

I simply ask you and the others to remember the will of the majority when you go about your business.

FJ

 

[vetrider]

Do you favor changing the retirement age to 65, yes or no?

End of story. Anything more just convolutes things and sends us around in circles.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Whether or not Age 60 changes will be determined by the Congress.

That means it will come down to who has the most "pull" on Capitol Hill.

I don't think John Prater, even as the head of ALPA, has nearly the pull Duane Woerth enjoyed. He's still several years, and several hundred PAC checks, away from that level. That's one of the liabilities of electing someone with very little (Read: zero) National experience.

JP's a good guy, but we're not going to get the same level of influence in Congress from him that we had with Duane. That's unfortunate, given that the folks Duane had the most influence upon are now in charge of the committees and the process.

Oh well...

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I think you were addressing this post to me. You should also try getting in touch with Scott Stratton. He is a Captain with you guys and on the BRP.

Why do we need another poll? The last one was rigged as much as possible in favor of supporting a change. It clearly showed that the majority preferred that the rule remain. The senior ALPA national guys in Herndon are just looking for ways to again tell the majority that you know what is best for us and will do whatever is in your best interests.

I disagree. The poll is important because demographics have changed in the past 2 years as have contracts and status of pensions/retirement plans. New pilots have been hired and older pilots have retired. The last poll was conducted 2 years ago and while a nice baseline, we need more current data. This data will tell us with good confidence where the membership is on this issue. The polling questions were not written with any predetermined outcome in mind and were edited multiple times over in order to most accurately frame the issue.

You should do whatever you can to emphatically tell those 4 Captains that the majority of ALPA members are against the rule change. If you get the chance you should personally tell that to Capt Prater as well. I for one would appreciate that.

FJ, I think it is critical to point out that the BRP is NOT a policy making panel. We have nothing to do with the Association's current policy on Age 60 or whether or not it should change its stance. The purpose of the BRP is to analyze the potential economic, safety, and unity impacts of a change to the rule...so we can be ahead of this issue. The FAA has made it fairly clear that they intend on changing the rule and in light of that, Captain Prater wanted to organize a committee to analyze the impact of such a potential change. That said, ALPA's official position is still to oppose any change to the current rule on the basis of safety. But if the FAA and congress say it is going to change, it may very well change. Time will tell and nothing is set in stone.

Good luck to you on the panel and thanks for your efforts.

I simply ask you and the others to remember the will of the majority when you go about your business.

FJ

As I said above, our business has nothing to with the will of the majority or anything like that. We are studying economic, safety, and unity impacts on the profession. In other words, how will LTD programs be impacted? Staffing? Training programs? Medical standards? Etc. Our work isn't to decide if we should or should not support a change.

-Neal

 

[Phaedrus]

our business has nothing to with the will of the majority or anything like that. We are studying economic, safety, and unity impacts on the profession

Yes FJ, remember the change is a foregone conclusion....
See my original post. What the heck does he mean, "no matter the outcome". If the outcome is in doubt then the BRP ought to be looking at how to defeat it or some other committee (sheesh) ought to be leading the charge.
"We're pissing on your back! and telling you it's raining."

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Yes FJ, remember the change is a foregone conclusion....
See my original post. What the heck does he mean, "no matter the outcome". If the outcome is in doubt then the BRP ought to be looking at how to defeat it or some other committee (sheesh) ought to be leading the charge.
"We're pissing on your back! and telling you it's raining."

Again, the BRP's mission isn't to study whether or not to change the mandatory age. You should point your opinions at Captain Prater and the rest of the Executive Board (which is your MEC chairs) as they set policy on this issue. Have you written or called ALPA Government Affairs to talk about what is being done to oppose this change? I suggest you speak with Frank Voyack at National.

-Neal

 

[Phaedrus]

Neal,
I have and thanks for the suggestion. My opinions are not in any way pointed at the BRP nor you. I understand your mandate but it doesn't mesh with what Prater is stating and existing ALPA policy concerning this issue.
P

 

[Andy]

Here's some scoop: Unless Congress passes legislation that protects the govenment and airlines from lawsuits by pilots "harmed" (ha!) by implementation of the new rules, it ain't gonna happen.

A cut off will be set and many "victims" (RJDC lawyers take note!) will claim that they were unfairly cut off.

Sweet. They won the war, but will lose everything arguing over the terms of surrender.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Whether or not Age 60 changes will be determined by the Congress.

That means it will come down to who has the most "pull" on Capitol Hill.

I don't think John Prater, even as the head of ALPA, has nearly the pull Duane Woerth enjoyed. He's still several years, and several hundred PAC checks, away from that level. That's one of the liabilities of electing someone with very little (Read: zero) National experience.

JP's a good guy, but we're not going to get the same level of influence in Congress from him that we had with Duane. That's unfortunate, given that the folks Duane had the most influence upon are now in charge of the committees and the process.

Oh well...

good stuff....what is said above....

D Woerth had allot of pull of the Hill. He was well connected. Prater will do well, but it takes time to build trust, respect and relationships.

One thing is definite.. ALPA is a respected Association on CapHill. Unlike other AFL-CIO unions ALPA is known as a very issue orientated group. They are bi-partisan supporting Congressmen who are pro- airline pilot.

ALPA has repsect on the Hill. Thus it has "pull". But not that much pull.

Only 14% of ALPA members contribute to the CapHill lifeblood: Money.

Nobody cares about Air Line Pilots in Washington. Meaning nobody is going to be nice to Air Line Pilots cause we are pilots. It is all about quid pro quo. You take care of me and I'll take care of you. ALPA is a small group. Only 66,000 members. There are plenty of other groups with deeper pockets. But again, ALPA has much repsect with congressmen and thier chief of staffs for thier bi-partisan issue orientated approach.

I ran into a few Teamsters. On old fogey couldn't get passed Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick. The point? Do you want the Age 60 issue solved or do you want to talk about Chappaquiddick? Do you want pension reform or do you want to have the satisfaction of telling Teddy that he is a schmuck?

The goal? Get as many congressman elected to CapHill that favor ALPA and Age60. If you had that then it doesn't matter what the FAA and Blakley do. This is how we almost single handidly squashed foreign control last Nov. This is why Virgin America is having to do massive changes to get certification...

Prater doesn't have the backing of ALPA members to be THAT influential. The influence that all of you think he should have...

Why?

Beacuse when Prater says to any given pro pilot congressman what percentage of his pilots contributed to his (re) election campaign Prater says 14%. What if Prater could say 50%? 75%? 90%? That would be effective. Age 60 would be a heck of allot easier to win for us.

When the Delta guys were against the USAIR takeover, DAL pilots showed up in uniform to the hearing and lined the back wall. It worked.

Are you ready to show up on CapHill in FULL uniform to fight age 65? If you aren't willing to show up, send emails and make a few phone calls then it says that ALPA pilots are apathetic.... Don't concern yourself with the Air Line Pilots, they are non players... spectators in this Age 60 issue....

What else are you willing to do? Because Congressmen want to get re-elected. And elections cost big bucks.


Do you wanna to give a few dollars to help Prater be more effective on the Hill?



Well do ya punk?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

good stuff....what is said above....

D Woerth had allot of pull of the Hill. He was well connected. Prater will do well, but it takes time to build trust, respect and relationships.

One thing is definite.. ALPA is a respected Association on CapHill. Unlike other AFL-CIO unions ALPA is known as a very issue orientated group. They are bi-partisan supporting Congressmen who are pro- airline pilot.

ALPA has repsect on the Hill. Thus it has "pull". But not that much pull.

Only 14% of ALPA members contribute to the CapHill lifeblood: Money.

Nobody cares about Air Line Pilots in Washington. Meaning nobody is going to be nice to Air Line Pilots cause we are pilots. It is all about quid pro quo. You take care of me and I'll take care of you. ALPA is a small group. Only 66,000 members. There are plenty of other groups with deeper pockets. But again, ALPA has much repsect with congressmen and thier chief of staffs for thier bi-partisan issue orientated approach.

I ran into a few Teamsters. On old fogey couldn't get passed Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick. The point? Do you want the Age 60 issue solved or do you want to talk about Chappaquiddick? Do you want pension reform or do you want to have the satisfaction of telling Teddy that he is a schmuck?

The goal? Get as many congressman elected to CapHill that favor ALPA and Age60. If you had that then it doesn't matter what the FAA and Blakley do. This is how we almost single handidly squashed foreign control last Nov. This is why Virgin America is having to do massive changes to get certification...

Prater doesn't have the backing of ALPA members to be THAT influential. The influence that all of you think he should have...

Why?

Beacuse when Prater says to any given pro pilot congressman what percentage of his pilots contributed to his (re) election campaign Prater says 14%. What if Prater could say 50%? 75%? 90%? That would be effective. Age 60 would be a heck of allot easier to win for us.

When the Delta guys were against the USAIR takeover, DAL pilots showed up in uniform to the hearing and lined the back wall. It worked.

Are you ready to show up on CapHill in FULL uniform to fight age 65? If you aren't willing to show up, send emails and make a few phone calls then it says that ALPA pilots are apathetic.... Don't concern yourself with the Air Line Pilots, they are non players... spectators in this Age 60 issue....

What else are you willing to do? Because Congressmen want to get re-elected. And elections cost big bucks.


Do you wanna to give a few dollars to help Prater be more effective on the Hill?



Well do ya punk?

KA-BOOOOOM !!! There it all is boyz...When a guy sez they should get rid of ALPA over one issue, but will not lift a finger to make change happen from within...you've got apathy...big time...

Taking it Back? Heh-heh, sure you are...

Tejas

 

[Falconjet]

Bullsh1t!

All of us give 1.95% to ALPA to represent us. Trying to hit me up for more so that we can buy political favor is a load of crap.

Try representing the will of the majority and fighting for our stance on the issue instead of caving in, then maybe solicit the membership for more support.

They (national) can kiss my azz if they think I'm going to put another penny into Herndon when they don't even represent the majority in the most divisive and important issue facing the union in the past 49 years. If I thought for a minute that Prater would spend the PAC money to effectively lobby against the change I'd then consider sending in more money. That isn't the tact he has taken and until then I will contribute only my dues.

Neal, again thanks for your efforts. I have and will continue to make my thoughts on Age 60 known to ALPA. I still think a blue ribbon panel to manage the change is a major cave in by ALPA national. Why not form a blue ribbon panel to fight and lobby against the change instead?

No real answer from Herndon on that one.

FJ

 

[Occam's Razor]

FJ,

I gotta agree with your overall theme. ALPA has an obligation to act in the way it's membership WANTS it to act. The primary obligation is to determine what we want...then go after it.

In 2002, Duane was personally opposed to a "no rules" armed pilot program. The membership gave him clear feedback that we wanted it. Duane very quietly enlisted the help on Capitol Hill of some influential folks that we might assume would oppose such a thing as the FFDO program: Paul Wellstone and Barbara Boxer.

Duane invited Wellstone to attend a Council 1 (NWA) meeting in MSP that June, and Wellstone was asked about arming pilots. I was there. Wellstone responded that "if we trust pilots with our lives, why can't we trust them with guns?" He drew a loud ovation. I saw staunch conservative buddies of mine wearing NRA buttons for the meeting, pumping his hand and thanking him for his support. Even now, Boxer is one of our go-to senators for enhancement to the FFDO program.

Duane responded to the outcry from the membership, went up to the Hill, and got it done. [Note: Other grass roots organizations helped a lot too!] The key point here is he responded to the will of the body.

I think we're looking for that from JP too.

 

[Andy]

The key point here is he responded to the will of the body.

I think we're looking for that from JP too.

The jury's still out on JP doing that.
I've heard it said from anti-60 that JP has helped their cause behind closed doors. I don't know whether or not it's true, but I'd prefer to see him take a stance closer to that of Hunter's at APA. I don't want someone who's going to assist in making the change; I want him to be a huge freaking roadblock. Period.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The jury's still out on JP doing that.
I've heard it said from anti-60 that JP has helped their cause behind closed doors. I don't know whether or not it's true, but I'd prefer to see him take a stance closer to that of Hunter's at APA. I don't want someone who's going to assist in making the change; I want him to be a huge freaking roadblock. Period.

Good point. I think it'd be a good idea for him to come out with a clear, unambiguous statement: ALPA opposes changing Age 60, and I will use all resources at my disposal as the President of ALPA to assist that opposition.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All of us give 1.95% to ALPA to represent us. Trying to hit me up for more so that we can buy political favor is a load of crap.

So you bought a ticket to watch the game and you think the hotdogs and beer should be free. So instead of not enjoying your career, oops I mean the game you are going to sit there pissed off....

Sorry FJ.. but this is how it works. I am not sure why your expectation of political effectiveness is incorrect. Who is repsonsible for your perception? Meanwhile, managment came to the game knowing they had to pay extra for hot dogs and beer and they brought LOTS of cash. If you look down in the premium seats they are having a good time... spending the company's money that YOU helped generate on thier hotdogs and beer.

Did you know that FedEx Corp is number two on a list of PAC contributors for the 2006 election cycle. FedEx gave $1,522,354 dollars to congressional elections to get the legislation they want. YOU helped generate that revenue.

Try representing the will of the majority and fighting for our stance on the issue instead of caving in, then maybe solicit the membership for more support.

And they should...and you should keep at it. But if you don't pay to play then you are just a spectator watching this whole issue....

They (national) can kiss my azz if they think I'm going to put another penny into Herndon when they don't even represent the majority in the most divisive and important issue facing the union in the past 49 years. If I thought for a minute that Prater would spend the PAC money to effectively lobby against the change I'd then consider sending in more money. That isn't the tact he has taken and until then I will contribute only my dues.

It is your choice. Watch or play.

Neal, again thanks for your efforts. I have and will continue to make my thoughts on Age 60 known to ALPA. I still think a blue ribbon panel to manage the change is a major cave in by ALPA national. Why not form a blue ribbon panel to fight and lobby against the change instead?

No real answer from Herndon on that one.

FJ

Fair enough FJ...

Know this.... if Age60 is an IED then US/EU open skies is nuclear warhead. Age 60 isn't going to matter if we keep losing ground on open skies... So you can be myopic and refuse to play because of one issue, but there are a whole lot of other issues that will be our demise...

Age 60 is important but it is small potatoes...

 

[Flopgut]

Rez:

You can't show up at a cock fight with a duck. ALPA has become a duck; or maybe it's always been one, depending on how senior you are?!

You put a guy like Prater on the mound and you expect him to throw some great pitches, not bean his teammates with curveballs. The APA guy has it figured out.

I'm not sure that ALPA has EVER been particuliarly well run? I'm ready for the Teamsters. Recent history show an improving trend and includes industry leading cargo and charter/fractional contracts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You can't show up at a cock fight with a duck. ALPA has become a duck; or maybe it's always been one, depending on how senior you are?!

If you like to cockflight...go for it. I'll quack....

You put a guy like Prater on the mound and you expect him to throw some great pitches, not bean his teammates with curveballs. The APA guy has it figured out.

Let's see how Age 60 plays out and who the real players are. The APA has put out a press release. What else have they done? (I don't know...school me...) I've looked around the APA website.. they've got allot of press releases but I don't see any teeth on the age60 issue.

I'm not sure that ALPA has EVER been particuliarly well run? I'm ready for the Teamsters. Recent history show an improving trend and includes industry leading cargo and charter/fractional contracts.

Hmm the netjet guys had to create thier own local cuase the IBT was so helpful... They then got a good TA. Nothing speaks for good leadership.

I'll let the ratification numbers on the IPA and FedEx TA's speak for themselves... Good leadership at FedEx too.....

No doubt ALPA has problems.... just like gov't and the church.... just like all of us. Are you perfect flopgut? I'm not... but let's stick to the issues and try to envoke positive change...

 

[Falconjet]

Rez: Whether the issue is large or small, the first thing the national leaders should do is carry out the will of the majority of the members. If they refuse to even do that I why would I send them even more money?

I believe in the union and I am not a single issue, fair weather friend. We need the union and I am proud to be a part of it.

But I'm not going to throw more money at an organization that has a "leader" who actively works against the will of the majority behind closed doors and seems willing to lay down in front of the bus because it benefits him.

To ask me to is absurd.

As I said before, if you are about to get raped you don't just lie back and "manage" the results. You fight back with every fiber in your being until its over and even then you never forgive. I don't see any fight in our leader and it really makes me sick.

How is he going to "take back the profession" after he lays down and completely disenfranchises the majority of his constituents? He'll be running up a lot of hills by himself.

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

FJ-

You maybe right...but lets wait and see.... what is the rush to define the situation as FUBAR?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: Whether the issue is large or small, the first thing the national leaders should do is carry out the will of the majority of the members. If they refuse to even do that I why would I send them even more money?

Because I believe you are being myopic. Besides if you don't give to ALPA-PAC over one issue then where is the ammo for the rest of the issues: fatigue, contam runway safety, cargo safety/security, FFDO, foreign control, etc...?

If taxes where voluntary and I refused to give 100% of my taxes becuase I didn't like a certian gov't program then the police, fire and EMT services would also shut down.

Also, if you want Congressmen to vote on age60 in your favor then you've got to be able to have access to their congreesional offices. The only way to do that is PAC money.

Because the other side that want Age65 is giving lots of cash.

Also, have you been drafting resolutions for your LEC meetings? There are lots of LEC and MEC's that are passing unanimous resolutions for ALPA to keep age 60.

Your thoughts?