Comair upgrade time question

[PositionandHold]

I don't know how up to date the information on airlinepilotcentral is, but I'm trying to work the next few months out (continue teaching to hit 1,000hrs or apply to Comair and others with lower hour quals).

The preferable goal right now is to get hired at a regional with a good upgrade time (good being 2 years or less). Whether or not this is realistic or not I do not know, but I know of people upgrading at Skywest and Pinnacle in under 2 years.

My question involves Comair, specifically. APC lists their most junior captain as having been hired in 2002. Are things looking to change with their supposed large amount of hiring this year?

J.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Asking about upgrade when you haven't even been hired at a company yet is like using yesterday's newspaper to get next week's sports scores.

Not trying to be a wise a##...just stating the truth.

 

[PositionandHold]

I see what you mean, but for instance, it's common knowledge that Eagle has had a really long upgrade time. I know a couple of people there who are in the process of leaving in pursuit other carriers. Skywest is supposed to, from what I've heard from some buddies that work there, have a pretty short upgrade time.

I was just wondering if the hiring of 400+ pilots in 2007 will shorten the upgrade time.

 

[BenderGonzales]

2 things generate upgrades. People leaving and buying new airplanes.

If neither of those things happen, the upgrade will stagnate. Now here's the important part so listen carefully:

NOMATTER HOW SHORT THE UPGRADE TIME HAS BEEN ON THE DAY YOU GET HIRED, IT WILL NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT YOUR UPGRADE TIME.

Too many variables over time. Pick a regional you think you'll be happy at in the RIGHT seat. Because the best laid plans of mice and men sometimes go awry.

 

[pilot22]

watch comair very carefully - I think they might get bought and then kiss your upgrade time question goodbye

 

[surplus1]

The direct answer to your question is 'upgrade' will likely take several years. The hiring you've heard about is not for expansion, it is to replace attrition.

The good news is that if it takes a bit, or a lot, longer to upgrade you will probably be acually qualified for command when it does happen.

The minimum upgrade flight time at CMR is currently 3000 hours. Depending on your experience when you start, that migh help to give you an idea of how long it would take at a minimum.

 

[staylow]

Not trying to rain on your parade.

I don't know how up to date the information on airlinepilotcentral is, but I'm trying to work the next few months out (continue teaching to hit 1,000hrs or apply to Comair and others with lower hour quals).

Here...you do the math. Must have 3000TT plus 500 in CL65 before they will even let you play the upgrade game. Start with your 1000TT then add three-and-one-half months for initial training. Then add one-and-one-half months for IOE and the initial 100 hours of operation time and then average about 70-75 hours a month on reserve (reserve in CVG is about four years, and JFK is two years, GSO is about three years, MCO is off the chart). Then figure in the most junior captain has been at Comair for five years. I just flew with him. So the way I figure it...four to five years is not unrealistic. We are loosing tons pilots right now so it could be a little less.

Then you need about 1500 to 2000 hours of turbine/jet pic to go up from the regionals. Looks like a long time.

 

[vectorflyer]

Reserve in JFK is 6 months or less . . . is what i'm hearing as a new hire.

 

[staylow]

Yeah right.

Reserve in JFK is 6 months or less . . . is what i'm hearing as a new hire.

I've been JFK for 18 months and I have been on reserve for the entire time up until Feb. 2007. So whoever is telling you it's six months they are out of their mind. Even with 4100 hours of flight time for the base that is still impossible. Just so you know...pilots who have been on reserve in CVG for two and three years are tired of being on reserve and are bidding JFK just to get off reserve...so as they arrive in JFK everyone below them moves down. Let me qoute Flava Flav..."Don't believe the hype."

 

[clarkwgriswald]

Reserve in JFK is 6 months or less . . . is what i'm hearing as a new hire.

In another thread someone mentioned in their interview they were told we are getting crj 900s. I would take everything you hear in regard to airplanes, upgrade times, and reserve times with are very large grain of salt.

 

[Otto]

Avg. reg upgrade= 3.8 years

The preferable goal right now is to get hired at a regional with a good upgrade time (good being 2 years or less). Whether or not this is realistic or not I do not know, but I know of people upgrading at Skywest and Pinnacle in under 2 years.

Why does every CFI out there think a 2 year or less upgrade at the regionals is the norm and almost a constitutional right?? I hope it works out for you but since you asked, I will give you a dose of reality. Partly out of curiousity myself, I took data from airlinepilotcentral.com and figured the average upgrade times for the regional industry as a whole, based on the number of pilots flying at the jet regionals. I came up with an average upgrade time of 3.8 years....that's right, almost FOUR years. 53% of pilots were flying at an airline with less than a three year upgrade and only 23% were at an airline with less than a two year upgrade. Those at less than two years were primarily at Chautauqua and Skywest where upgrades will be getting longer, especially at Skywest. It's simple mathematics...they have 2,500 pilots so the bigger they get, the longer it will take. It's short right now because many FO's have the seniority but don't have the hours to upgrade...that will change in the next two years so for someone getting hired today I would say it's too late.

Comair is a wild card...it looks bad there now but coming out of bankruptcy they could be (emphasize COULD BE) poised for significant growth and with 1,500 pilots, that's a much smaller mountain to climb than SKywest. Than again Delta could shrink them. I know it makes it tough to make a decision...welcome to the airline biz!

The bottom line is that regional airlines have taken over so many mainline flights and gotten so big, pilots will have to spend more time at the regionals than they have in the years past. Again, it's simply a numbers game. Sure there will be those that happen to be in the right place at the right time but very few planned it that way. My advice...pick an airline based on QOL and located in the place you want to be in the long run.

 

[V-1]

Why does every CFI out there think a 2 year or less upgrade at the regionals is the norm and almost a constitutional right?? I hope it works out for you but since you asked, I will give you a dose of reality. Partly out of curiousity myself, I took data from airlinepilotcentral.com and figured the average upgrade times for the regional industry as a whole, based on the number of pilots flying at the jet regionals. I came up with an average upgrade time of 3.8 years....that's right, almost FOUR years. 53% of pilots were flying at an airline with less than a three year upgrade and only 23% were at an airline with less than a two year upgrade. Those at less than two years were primarily at Chautauqua and Skywest where upgrades will be getting longer, especially at Skywest. It's simple mathematics...they have 2,500 pilots so the bigger they get, the longer it will take. It's short right now because many FO's have the seniority but don't have the hours to upgrade...that will change in the next two years so for someone getting hired today I would say it's too late.

Comair is a wild card...it looks bad there now but coming out of bankruptcy they could be (emphasize COULD BE) poised for significant growth and with 1,500 pilots, that's a much smaller mountain to climb than SKywest. Than again Delta could shrink them. I know it makes it tough to make a decision...welcome to the airline biz!

The bottom line is that regional airlines have taken over so many mainline flights and gotten so big, pilots will have to spend more time at the regionals than they have in the years past. Again, it's simply a numbers game. Sure there will be those that happen to be in the right place at the right time but very few planned it that way. My advice...pick an airline based on QOL and located in the place you want to be in the long run.

Well written.

The only thing I might add to the above wisdom is one would be wise to continue to develop skills and interests outside aviation, as well as a strong financial safety net. The airline that has a tolerable quality of life and reasonably acceptable payrates today may be in bankruptcy court six months from now.

The pride one feels from owning (well owning 10%-20% of) a nice big house or shiny new car quickly fades when compared to the pride one feels once it no longer matters (from an individual's financial viewpoint) if one's employer continues to remain in business.

If you want quick upgrades, look no further than the places no one likes to work (places where pilots are expected to spend their nights sleeping on airplanes and share rooms with mixed sexual preference crewmembers), and the places that fly equipment no one considers "glamorous" (beech 1900's). Just remember how important that PIC turbine time was to you after you've been there eight years, and had no luck getting hired by FedEx, UAL, etc.

Best of luck to you...wherever your course takes you.

 

[SBD]

I've been JFK for 18 months and I have been on reserve for the entire time up until Feb. 2007. So whoever is telling you it's six months they are out of their mind. Even with 4100 hours of flight time for the base that is still impossible. Just so you know...pilots who have been on reserve in CVG for two and three years are tired of being on reserve and are bidding JFK just to get off reserve...so as they arrive in JFK everyone below them moves down. Let me qoute Flava Flav..."Don't believe the hype."

I was on reserve for maybe two months at JFK. No way is it 2 years.

 

[vectorflyer]

Ya and now with the pay cuts things will probably be moving again.

 

[ROSWELL41]

In the next boom (read the next 2 yrs), PIC time will not be a necessity just like it wasnt in 1999-2001. Those 4-5 yr regional captains flying 70 seaters will be hard pressed to make the move to first year pay at the majors. It may seem unbelievable, but regional F/O's will be making the jump to the big show before many of the captains.

 

[Comair49%er]

In the next boom (read the next 2 yrs), PIC time will not be a necessity just like it wasnt in 1999-2001. Those 4-5 yr regional captains flying 70 seaters will be hard pressed to make the move to first year pay at the majors. It may seem unbelievable, but regional F/O's will be making the jump to the big show before many of the captains.

...and when regional FO's make the move before the Captains, they leave with no PIC time. Majors furlough...then the regional FO's are regional FO's once again. This time they are not 23 years in the right seat now they are 30 years old in the right seat with 23 year olds in the left seat..... My point, pay your dues, do your time or your impatience will come back to haunt you.

 

[DrewBlows]

...and when regional FO's make the move before the Captains, they leave with no PIC time. Majors furlough...then the regional FO's are regional FO's once again. This time they are not 23 years in the right seat now they are 30 years old in the right seat with 23 year olds in the left seat..... My point, pay your dues, do your time or your impatience will come back to haunt you.

That doesn't make sense. Even if Captain's move on to the Majors and are furloughed, if they choose to go back to the regionals they will be FOs. In my opinion, you are dumb to pass up an opportunity to move on to a Major (if that's what you want to do) because you want to "pay your dues".

 

[Goose Egg]

...I took data from airlinepilotcentral.com and figured the average upgrade times for the regional industry as a whole, based on the number of pilots flying at the jet regionals. I came up with an average upgrade time of 3.8 years...

Excellent post. I did the same analysis using the same website, and came to very similar conclusions. I figure that if I want to fly jets at a regional, I'm in it for pretty much 7-10 years.

-Goose