Pinnacle purchases 15 Q400

[funnyman12]

Curious question for PCL pilots....What are some of the details of the contract you are proposing? I checked the payrates and captains are on par with other CRJ-200 operators...first officers are much lower than industy standards. Just wondering what you guys are asking for.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Curious question for PCL pilots....What are some of the details of the contract you are proposing? I checked the payrates and captains are on par with other CRJ-200 operators...first officers are much lower than industy standards. Just wondering what you guys are asking for.

• 100% DHD pay.
• Block or better.
• Increased hourly rates
• Retro
• better retirement/401k
• CVR/FDR language protection
• work rules to promote better staffing
• complete and total overhaul of reserve work rules

you know....the baiscs.. nothing fancy...

 

[funnyman12]

sounds rational....what type of pay rate increases?

 

[BOHICAgain]

sounds rational....what type of pay rate increases?

This is the part that bugs me. They want avarge pay scales to what other airlines signed 2-3 years ago so in like 5 years 9e will still be near the bottom. It should be like 23 1st year 34 second year and captains like a 3% initial followed by a 1% a year

 

[Cheeba]

PCL_128 thank you for the post with the contract language in it. I think the big question still remains though: What is the contractual definition of "COMPANY". Is COMPANY defined by your contract as Pinnacle Airlines, or Pinnacle Airlines Holdings? If you could post the contract excerpt with that answer I think that would clear up about half of arguments on Flight Info.

 

[Lear70]

Doesn't matter.

Pinnacle Airlines Corp was formed BY Pinnacle Airlines, Inc AFTER the Agreement was signed. Same management team. Same address.

Means it's a "successor" under most interpretations.

Doesn't mean a court can't change all that with one ruling. That's what sucks about the law - everything is open to re-interpretation without existing case law.

 

[Lear70]

D*mn double post.

This server SUCKS.

 

[PCL_128]

sounds rational....what type of pay rate increases?

I won't post actual rates, but suffice it to say that our original proposal was for industry-leading rates.

 

[dingo222]

we all should be frickin lobbyist's as much time as we spend debating and trying to sell our ideas. I'm sure as hell it pays better, and the perks aren't too bad either.

 

[captboy2001]

so would pinnapple guys be b*tching if they were adding more saab routes?? or is it just the q400 that bothers you.....with the whole scope cause

 

[redflyer65]

Directly from the contract....

"This agreement will be binding upon ANY successor or merged company or companies or ANY successor in the control of the company, regardless of the nature of the transfer of control...."

I think that is pretty clear gentleman. It doesn't have to say anything about Corp or Holding companies. It covers it all.

 

[dingo222]

well, get some guys back up to speed on the saab. we have 4 of those coming online soon also

 

[suupah]

It sounds to me like this is saying that any company that takes over control of pinnacle airlines has to honor this contract.

so say that Skywest bought pinnacle airlines, they couldn't just walk in and throw out your contract but would have to honor it.

Can you cut and paste the specific part of the contract that speaks about flying and pinnacle pilots?

 

[redflyer65]

I think their argument will be that Holdings doesn't "control" Pinnacle Airlines. But I think that is pretty bogus and the intent of the contract will show through.

The other section about flying is this....

"All present and future flying of any form performed by or for the company will be performed by pilots on the Pilots' System Seniority List.."

Another interesting section....

"The company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of transferrin the assests of the company to such airline and avoiding its obligations to the pilots of the company under this agreement."

We really aren't interested in taking anyones flying. We would rather merge the list, then work together for better work rules and pay for everyone.

Unfortunately, this management group doesn't really like to give us any of that. That's why its so important to work together.

 

[funnyman12]

First of all....PCL pilots initially said "welcome fellow brothers". Now that we have the Q400 deal (which has been in the workd for 2 years) the attitude on this website certainly has changed.(understanding the loudest pilots in each pilot groups are usually the 1000+ posts people) Do you guys think that threatning us is going to convince us to unionize and combine lists??? Well if your goal is to be our brothers, you guys are only making us angry and not willing to work together. Lets say that Colgan joined ALPA and decided NOT to combine senority lists....which if we did decide to unionize I bet the CJC pilots would want separate senority lists. What would PCL guys think of that....im guessing you would all be against that also. What do you want us to do to make your guys happy...maybe some good ol' KY jelly. Sounds like we have a double edged knife on our hands. Right now the PCL pilot group seems to be a more threatning group than management. Management said we were bout to grow and get larger planes and the have delivered on their word. (not to say there are many obstacles ahead) that is pretty scary. If you guys want to be our brother, talk to us that way. We were just sold and of course we want to grow Your lives haven't changed thusfar. If management starts using us as a tool in your contract negotiations, or you think they will, in a professional way tell us what we can do. Instead of saying you are going to limit our growth...tells us how your lives will be worse and together we can prevent that!!

 

[suupah]

I think their argument will be that Holdings doesn't "control" Pinnacle Airlines. But I think that is pretty bogus and the intent of the contract will show through.

I am not sure. i think it might be that they control pinnacle airlines but that they are not infringing on this contractual agreement with the pinnacle airlines pilot group at all with the purchase of Colgan.

"All present and future flying of any form performed by or for the company will be performed by pilots on the Pilots' System Seniority List.."

So i guess the question is who "the company is". Like you said they will probably argue that Colgan isn't doing any flying that was intended for pinnacle airlines.

"The company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of transferrin the assests of the company to such airline and avoiding its obligations to the pilots of the company under this agreement."

I think again that they will argue that they are not transferring any assets to Colgan air that were intended for or owned by pinnacle airlines. They will probably say that they are in no way falling short of its contractual obligations to the pinnacle pilots. But it all comes back to who "the company" is.

 

[dingo222]

if the "juice" can commit murder and walk, then write a book about "how he would have done it" anything is possible. I should have been a sh*thouse lawyer so that I could have had a 28,000 sq foot house like Jon Edwards.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If you guys want to be our brother, talk to us that way. We were just sold and of course we want to grow Your lives haven't changed thusfar. If management starts using us as a tool in your contract negotiations, or you think they will, in a professional way tell us what we can do. Instead of saying you are going to limit our growth...tells us how your lives will be worse and together we can prevent that!!

Will do.... let's stay the course and not respond to this and that rather stick to a game plan...

The divide and counquer efforts of management will be strong....

 

[dingo222]

agreed man, thats why i quit commenting on these posts other than for comic relief. This is just what they want. 2 pilot groups to learn to hate each other. I haven't been doing this flying thing long, but I spent the last 12 years in USASOC ( army special operations command). Our big saying was "teach snakes to kill other snakes." THat's exactly what we are doing. We are going after one another rather than the people that we should be worried about. My 2 cents. I'm 6 beers deep and off till friday, so it escape reality time

 

[suupah]

DINGO222 wins avatars of the year!

 

[CoolSidePillow]

First of all....PCL pilots initially said "welcome fellow brothers". Now that we have the Q400 deal (which has been in the workd for 2 years) the attitude on this website certainly has changed.(understanding the loudest pilots in each pilot groups are usually the 1000+ posts people) Do you guys think that threatning us is going to convince us to unionize and combine lists??? Well if your goal is to be our brothers, you guys are only making us angry and not willing to work together. Lets say that Colgan joined ALPA and decided NOT to combine senority lists....which if we did decide to unionize I bet the CJC pilots would want separate senority lists. What would PCL guys think of that....im guessing you would all be against that also. What do you want us to do to make your guys happy...maybe some good ol' KY jelly. Sounds like we have a double edged knife on our hands. Right now the PCL pilot group seems to be a more threatning group than management. Management said we were bout to grow and get larger planes and the have delivered on their word. (not to say there are many obstacles ahead) that is pretty scary. If you guys want to be our brother, talk to us that way. We were just sold and of course we want to grow Your lives haven't changed thusfar. If management starts using us as a tool in your contract negotiations, or you think they will, in a professional way tell us what we can do. Instead of saying you are going to limit our growth...tells us how your lives will be worse and together we can prevent that!!

Well put. If they want all new flying. They can have all those ********************water towns in WV. Is that what you want Redflyer? If PCL gets ALL new flying then that would include ALL new flying right? It isnt that we signed a new codeshare but are merely expanding with a codeshare we have been established with for 2 years as was negotiated at time of contract. So since you get all tickled about your union contract then make sure you fight about ALL the new flying per your precious contract. Dust off the SAAB manuals and take the WV flying. Afterall... we need money to get aircraft up and running for that too and I am sure that money now comes from PCL investors too.

 

[unwashed]

Why is it for so many years only one airline in the US has operated the 400? Is this a good thing for Colgan or bad, is it a good thing for Lynx or bad. I have my opinions of this, but am curious about the responses.

 

[glfplt]

I think their argument will be that Holdings doesn't "control" Pinnacle Airlines. But I think that is pretty bogus and the intent of the contract will show through.

The other section about flying is this....

"All present and future flying of any form performed by or for the company will be performed by pilots on the Pilots' System Seniority List.."

Another interesting section....

"The company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of transferrin the assests of the company to such airline and avoiding its obligations to the pilots of the company under this agreement."

We really aren't interested in taking anyones flying. We would rather merge the list, then work together for better work rules and pay for everyone.

Unfortunately, this management group doesn't really like to give us any of that. That's why its so important to work together.


Work together? So far, i haven't gotten the warm and fuzzy from the Pinnacle guys about this deal.
Here's a question, when the NWA thing goes south (and it will) and you guys end up flying 700 series rjs for your new codeshares (and you will); Should Colgan pilots be upset that you'll be flying routes that we worked hard to obtain?
I know you guys are in contract negotiations and i trully wish you the best of luck, but how about showing a little love to your Colgan brothers for bringing 3 different codeshares and a ton of opportunity to the table...

 

[Lear70]

I think their argument will be that Holdings doesn't "control" Pinnacle Airlines. But I think that is pretty bogus and the intent of the contract will show through.

Agreed.

The other section about flying is this....

"All present and future flying of any form performed by or for the company will be performed by pilots on the Pilots' System Seniority List.."

Another interesting section....

"The company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of transferrin the assests of the company to such airline and avoiding its obligations to the pilots of the company under this agreement."

Those are the two that MOST apply here, good reading skills.

While not transferring any assets of the company, it can be argued that growing a separate company under the direct control of PCL Airlines is most certainly "avoiding its obligations to the pilots of the company under this Agreement". Especially if they take those 17 CRJ's back away at deadline time, thereby shrinking PCL while growing Colgan.

We really aren't interested in taking anyones flying. We would rather merge the list, then work together for better work rules and pay for everyone.

Best solution.

Work together? So far, i haven't gotten the warm and fuzzy from the Pinnacle guys about this deal.

Here's a question, when the NWA thing goes south (and it will) and you guys end up flying 700 series rjs for your new codeshares (and you will); Should Colgan pilots be upset that you'll be flying routes that we worked hard to obtain?

That's why you should have a combined list. No one gets pi*sed off at anyone else. Everyone gets a shot to upgrade in seniority order (combined DOH). No one gets whipsawed.

WHEN the NWA deal goes through, IF Colgan is cheaper than PCL and they're still operated separately because PT won the court battle, PCL won't get any shiny RJ's without taking concessions to fly them.

They'll simply be put at Colgan and PCL will be shrunk to near-nonexistence. This has ALREADY HAPPENED ONCE at Pinnacle, back when it was Express Airlines I and they shrunk by almost 80% while Mesaba doubled in Saab size and got Avros. Pinnacle was forced to withdraw from MSP and DTW and settled back in MEM for almost half a decade.

The senior PCL guys have seen this before.

I know you guys are in contract negotiations and i trully wish you the best of luck, but how about showing a little love to your Colgan brothers for bringing 3 different codeshares and a ton of opportunity to the table...

Not to mention a great group of pilots. I've had several of your guys PM me and let me know the one or two greedy guys don't speak for everyone. Thanks for the PM's, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised talking to the PCL MEC that PCL has some great people as well.

Good luck!

 

[redflyer65]

Coolside, I'm not trying to piss anyone off. Some have wanted more info on the scope and successor clause of our contract. That was written way back in 1999 I might add. That's longer than I've been here.

I know that the Colgan pilots have not asked for any of this. But it could be a really good opportunity for BOTH pilot groups. Like I said, we aren't looking to bump anyone out of their flying, we want it all to be done by one group....which includes the whole Colgan group.

Think about the advantages of that for a minute. That would mean an immediate improvement of QOL of all Colgan pilots. Then as a combined bargaining unit we could push for better payscales on the SAAB and Q400, as well as the RJ. Take a look at Horizons' payscales on the Q400, thats the kind of pay we could push for. I don't think Phil is gonna come up with a high payscale on his own. It's gonna be a complete low ball. It will make your stomach churn.

 

[JT12345]

.

I can't IMAGINE going back there; I'd go back to day charter or a 121 Supplemental freight operator first.

Are you sure about that. I guess starting over I wouldn't go back here, but I look at any contract or sub-contract flying no matter what the pay as a lateral move with the same lack of control over my fate.

If I left Pinchnickel, and got furloughed I would work at homedepot before I would go back to regional flying. Too much aggrevation watching customers get screwed because of high turnover and a lack of experience of the workforce. Everyday numerous employees could have made the difference in a passenger's day, but dropped the ball instead either due to lack of experience (high turnover - due to crappy pay) or not caring (waiting for a call from McDonalds, so they don't have to work in the cold, but make the same money).

They talk about all the great numbers like CSM and load factors meanwhile we are losing customers left and right.

 

[JT12345]

A regional with more than 2 airplane types is very inefficient especially if they have less than 30 of that type of airplane. Worst so if the airplane has a lot of seats. You will probably see Colgan get rid of one of their aircraft types.

 

[TurboAWD]

There are pilots at both airlines that just don't get it.

1. The Pinnacle MEC has no intention of screwing Colgan pilots. NONE. That info comes DIRECTLY from the source (over a few beers).

2. There are some dumb pilots at 9E shouting for a staple job. They are very much in the minority, and the reps will try to educate them on why it is a bad idea.

3. Colgan pilots can enhance their career options by integration with the 9E seniority list.

4. Pinnacle pilots can enhance their career options by integration with the 9L seniority list.

5. The entire industry looses whenever a corporation uses whipsawing to drive down pilot contracts. Even if it doesn't happen this year, Pinnacle WILL use the pilot groups against each other in the future if given the chance.

6. What happens to regional contracts when you are getting your magical 1000PIC effects your future career at the majors.

now, can we please just get together, fly some airplanes, drink some beer, get paid what we deserve, and go home?

Turbo

 

[redflyer65]

The best post on FI that I've seen in awhile.

Well said Turbo!

 

[Kaman]

Well said, Turbo especially the flying airplanes and drinking beer part...