AAA/AWA Integration...

[Fast43]

Well I believe the arbitrator has stated in previous decisions, something to the fact, Nobody has a crystal ball, so such/such company may have or may not have gone out of business. Fact of the matter is, both companies are here now and merging together. With that fact, take into account career progression, and even though I'm on furlough, progression at my carrier, had me making Capt. sooner than someone at the same relative seniority on the west side. True, at present day I'm on the street, but with the emerging retirements, whether it's as planned now, or pushed back 5 yrs. the end result is the same. A large vaccum on the east side sucking people up the list. As shown on the seniority progression chart, by 2014 the bottom guy at AWA was expected to be a block holding 757 f/o. Where as the bottom guy on the US list was expected to make capt 320. And at 2016 the West guy still wouldn't have been able to hold capt. In fact 2016, the individual about 200 numbers from the bottom, would just be at the point of possibly checking out, 2 years and 200 numbers above the West bottom guy.
So if you look beyond the immediate 1-2 years.....there's a huge windfall for the West side......as their movement up a combined list or relative seniority would be quite a bit quicker..

First of all we can agree that the ALPA merger policy states the one side should not recieve a windfall at the expense of the other.

Explain to me how a furloughed AAA pilot coming back to the Seniority list anywhere other than the bottom of the list (the best you could have hoped for without the merger is to have been recalled to "the bottom" during the last 5 days of operations prior to shutdown) is not a windfall at the expense of the Active pilots at the bottom.

Certainly everyone understands this !!!


Fast

 

[Jaffo]

Well I believe the arbitrator has stated in previous decisions, something to the fact, Nobody has a crystal ball, so such/such company may have or may not have gone out of business. Fact of the matter is, both companies are here now and merging together. With that fact, take into account career progression, and even though I'm on furlough, progression at my carrier, had me making Capt. sooner than someone at the same relative seniority on the west side. True, at present day I'm on the street, but with the emerging retirements, whether it's as planned now, or pushed back 5 yrs. the end result is the same. A large vaccum on the east side sucking people up the list. As shown on the seniority progression chart, by 2014 the bottom guy at AWA was expected to be a block holding 757 f/o. Where as the bottom guy on the US list was expected to make capt 320. And at 2016 the West guy still wouldn't have been able to hold capt. In fact 2016, the individual about 200 numbers from the bottom, would just be at the point of possibly checking out, 2 years and 200 numbers above the West bottom guy.
So if you look beyond the immediate 1-2 years.....there's a huge windfall for the West side......as their movement up a combined list or relative seniority would be quite a bit quicker..

Crazy pilot,

Are you serious that you think an active pilot at HP with the same senoirity that you claim to have had at US would be a junior line holder on the 757? Please don't pretend to know what you are talking about when you obviously do not! When you received your walking papers at US, HP also had pilots on furlough but now they don't and before the "merger" they were actively hiring about forty pilots a month (two classes of twenty) and upgrading pilots from FO to CA at about twenty per month at that rate a new hire at HP was expecting to upgrade to CA in about five to six years with the then current attrition and growth! Your career expectation when you last an active pilot with US was liquidation, I know you guys saved HP but the fact is HP was making money and growing before the merger and has seen all the growth transfer to the "east" since the "merger". And, as far as widebody flying goes everyone seems to forget that HP did fly widebodys and whos to say that HP would not have gotten them again in the future?

 

[MCDU]

Most of these 15 yr furloughed veterans are active pilots again or could be. They are half way down their furloughed list for recall. You still do not have a merged seniority list. So America West MEC are trying to staple active pilots with 1988 and 1989 DOH, behind AWA 2005 New Hires. Sounds fair.

Marty

 

[Jaffo]

First of all we can agree that the ALPA merger policy states the one side should not recieve a windfall at the expense of the other.

Explain to me how a furloughed AAA pilot coming back to the Seniority list anywhere other than the bottom of the list (the best you could have hoped for without the merger is to have been recalled to "the bottom" during the last 5 days of operations prior to shutdown) is not a windfall at the expense of the Active pilots at the bottom.

Certainly everyone understands this !!!


Fast

Ditto!

 

[Jaffo]

Most of these 15 yr furloughed veterans are active pilots again or could be. They are half way down their furloughed list for recall. You still do not have a merged seniority list. So America West MEC are trying to staple active pilots with 1988 and 1989 DOH, behind AWA 2005 New Hires. Sounds fair.

Marty

Marty,

Being recalled to the bottom of the senoirity list is fair for those currently on furlough, the option would be to not have any recall right at all! From what I have heard the active pilots at US have already sold the furloughed guys down the river, (in their BK negotiations) now they are fighting for them because it suits their own interests (the more they have behind them the higher their own relative seniority).

 

[Jaffo]

Most of these 15 yr furloughed veterans are active pilots again or could be.

At what airline?

 

[Doug Parker]

.

Hey FCU,

The furloughees on the AAA list at Merger announcement or PID date had NO expectation of a job w/o the merger.........Why should they come back above an active pilot ??

Doesn't make 1 GD bit of difference if they are on the list now - that would be a product of saving of AAA from liquidation by AWA. Date of Acquisition is what matters !!


.

 

[DustyBottoms]

Most of these 15 yr furloughed veterans are active pilots again or could be. They are half way down their furloughed list for recall. You still do not have a merged seniority list. So America West MEC are trying to staple active pilots with 1988 and 1989 DOH, behind AWA 2005 New Hires. Sounds fair.

Marty

Although this decision will probably have the biggest impact on all of our careers, if not our life, I normally try not to argue about it as we have no control.

I was jumpseating on a flight that was operated by East Metal, and after we got into cruise, the Capt. and FO started asking me about the seniority integration. I basically told them it was out of my hands so I didn't really have anything to say about it. Both pilots seemed like good guys and I wanted to avoid debating something that nobody would win. But the Capt. kept pressing me, saying that I must have some feelings about it. Of course I did, but it didn't seem like the time or place to argue (like now!).

I finally told him, "I know that a lot of pilots from both sides are not going to be happy with the outcome. And that I'm sure that the US Airways pilots are thinking the exact same thing as the America West pilots are, in that we wish this whole merger never would have happened."

I left it open as a question, but he never responded, and stopped asking me about the integration.

 

[johnnyb]

.

Hey FCU,

The furloughees on the AAA list at Merger announcement or PID date had NO expectation of a job w/o the merger.........Why should they come back above an active pilot ??

Doesn't make 1 GD bit of difference if they are on the list now - that would be a product of saving of AAA from liquidation by AWA. Date of Acquisition is what matters !!


.

..... bunch of 8 year olds Dude.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Crazy pilot,

Are you serious that you think an active pilot at HP with the same senoirity that you claim to have had at US would be a junior line holder on the 757? Please don't pretend to know what you are talking about when you obviously do not! When you received your walking papers at US, HP also had pilots on furlough but now they don't and before the "merger" they were actively hiring about forty pilots a month (two classes of twenty) and upgrading pilots from FO to CA at about twenty per month at that rate a new hire at HP was expecting to upgrade to CA in about five to six years with the then current attrition and growth! Your career expectation when you last an active pilot with US was liquidation, I know you guys saved HP but the fact is HP was making money and growing before the merger and has seen all the growth transfer to the "east" since the "merger". And, as far as widebody flying goes everyone seems to forget that HP did fly widebodys and whos to say that HP would not have gotten them again in the future?

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight, but when someone say something Totally, completely Stupid; I just have to put my $0.02 in. What a laugh, "everyone seems to forget that HP did fly widebodys and who to say that HP would not have gotten them again in the future?"

Yes, HP a Long, Long time ago, (You were probably not even out of high school then), did fly 2 (count them a big 2) B-747s, flying mostly to Hawaii, and as I recall, Lost their a$$ on the lease payments, NEVER really made a nickel flying them, and as I recall, lost them about the time of the BK or just before that.

So as a stand alone co. just when did you expect HP to get Widebodies again???? But, that was 'funny' for those of us who are old enough to have 'experience' some of this industry/business.

Just my $0.02,

DA

P.S. Again, don't have a dog in this fight, but also again, have been around this business more than just a few years, guys, its called 'experience' But everyone keeps throwing around this US (east) liquidation thing (it was like 'days' away), like they had their own 'crystal ball' Again, from Experience, PAN AM was on the verge of 'liquidation' sooooo many times for almost 20 yrs. ended up doing down, but before that sold off a big chunk of the company to DL, along with the planes and pilots. And, US (east) was a mere 7 days from closing the doors and liquidation back in 1994, and yet after that, not only stayed around, but made money on numerous occasions, boughts new airplanes, expanded, contracted, and so on. And, I am sure that one of you, 'butt-holes' are going to answer, 'well, Parker said.......we saved US, saved the jobs, bah, bah......." And, all of that was just "spin" This whole idea for a merger was though up by the then CFO at US (east), sold to Lakefield, then to Parker, then to the Investment Bankers, who actually "Bought Both companies" with their "Money" and put them together, just because, hey, they saw a $$$ a buck, or two $$$$ in it for them. And, they were rewarded.

Sorry, for going on so long, but if I hear another a$$ bag, say, "we bought you...." You were going out of business........" Well, I guess if you really want to just keep saying 'stupid $hit' then have at it, but Everyone who has some 'experience' will know just how smart you are.

In the end, 'someone' has he brains to take two 'regional airlines' who were very small fish in a Big Pond (and even worse if they stood alone and consolidation happened without them), and put them together and made a 'growing' (as now the DL thing is over, Parker will have to probably grow from within), company that is "FAR" more profitable than either could have hope to be Alone!!!!!!

Well, that's enough sanity and intelligence for you guys, now go back to wining, and crying, and pi$$ing as each other like a bunch of 3rd graders.

Bye.

 

[vetrider]

Well shoot, whining like 3 year olds is an age old airline pilot specialty, no one does it better, anyone with any experience knows that. Nothing to see here, carry on, please disperse.

 

[FDJ2]

The acquisition did bring value to awa - awa shareholders that is. Until my seniority on the new list is set in stone it has only brought me stagnation.

If stagnation is the extend of the pain you feel, then you've probably made out alright. Typically mergers lead to job loss and career regression, since the new entity is usually smaller than the sum of the two.

AWA management could have chosen to grow organically, but that is not the path your management chose , that is not your fault or the fault of the AAA pilots, that is a management decision and judging from recent history, it appears to be the path that your management will follow in the future. It is also a path that leads to less career progression and more career stagnation. That's one of the problems for labor when your management pursues a growth through mergers business plan.

You are correct that the "shareholders" have achieved great value through this merger, but so have you, a "stakeholder". Not too long ago AWA was a weak airline that needed an government ATSB loan to survive. Since the merger the company has made a tidy profit, it has increased its liquidity and is operating solidly in the black. That not only gives you negotiating leverage to improve your pay and quality of life, but it also should insulate you from having to endure the hardships of working for a bankrupt carrier. So yes, you have achieved value from this merger aswell, just not as much as you had hoped for, or in the form that you had expected.

 

[Contract]

In the end, 'someone' has he brains to take two 'regional airlines' who were very small fish in a Big Pond (and even worse if they stood alone and consolidation happened without them), and put them together and made a 'growing' (as now the DL thing is over, Parker will have to probably grow from within), company that is "FAR" more profitable than either could have hope to be Alone!!!!!!

1


Well I guess that just proves that you can have all the exerience in the world and a new guy can walk into the office and put you to shame on day one.

Regional Airllines

 

[eaglefly]

Buk-Buk-Buk----Buk Awk-Buk Awk.............Bawk-Buk-Buk-Buk-Bawk-Bawk.....

Just thought I'd contribute something to an equally coherent discussion.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Now that US Airways has given up their pursuit of Delta, maybe they can get down to the business of completing their current merger. Complete intergration, one certificate, and painting all the airplanes. The new company has a lot of potential on their own. Earning half a billion dollars within the first complete year of a merger is very impressive! It would be nice to see US Airways place an order for more A330-200 aircraft and expand their international network. Combining the two companies gives US Airways a competitive domestic network. Why the A330-200, range 6750nm, and seat capacity in 3 class configuration 253 seats. Right now the A350 is a long way off and US Airways needs to expand internationally to compete with Delta, Continental, United, American, and Northwest. Both Phoenix and Las Vegas could probable support international expansion using the A330-200. Cities like London, Paris, and Frankfurt to start. With Airbus looking for more orders, US Airways could probable get a great deal on these aircraft. With Airbus being a large investor, I doubt they'd go boeing. The A350s that are on order are still a long way off so converting some of those orders may be coming. Their are lots of opportunities for this new US Airways once the complete intergration is complete. Now, if Parker can just focus on it!

Getting Parker to focus could be the difficult part....after his failed hostile bid you gotta wonder if "Boy Wonder" suffers from attention deficit disoder! Liked both your posts by the way.Agree with what you say about the New USAiirways having alot of potential on its own. Now if we could only get those east coast knuckleheads to quit whining about their lost pensions we might really have something here....

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Man why did you have to bring wives into this mess?? Dam, I gotta go she just heard me on this board again

WD.

YOU'RE MARRIED??!!?? Ohhhhh...that poor girl!


Phxflyr

 

[Wiskey Driver]

YOU'RE MARRIED??!!?? Ohhhhh...that poor girl!


Phxflyr

There you go again behaving like your uncle
:laugh:

Good seeing you at the pizza lunch.

WD.

 

[PHXFLYR]

hey...never one to pass up a free meal.(Though one would think given the amount of union dues we're paying,you guys could at least spring for Papa John's!! ) Tell my "adopted baby brother" I said "hola".

Airbuses are for Sissies!
PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

.....Well, that's enough sanity and intelligence for you guys, now go back to wining, and crying, and pi$$ing as each other like a bunch of 3rd graders.

Bye.[/quote]
...........................................................

 

[Wiskey Driver]

hey...never one to pass up a free meal.(Though one would think given the amount of union dues we're paying,you guys could at least spring for Papa John's!! ) Tell my "adopted baby brother" I said "hola".

Airbuses are for Sissies!
PHXFLYR

Papa John's?? Your're luck I couldn't find a dominos!! I will tell him.

Before you down graded to that hunk of junk what a/c did you fly?:laugh:

WD.