Pilot Factories

[STREAKS]

I realize the risk of starting yet another sarcasm thread, but, what are the top pilot factories out there these days? Got a guy who wants to fly for a living--could not talk him out of it. He'll get his!

Anywho, any info would be great. Cheapest with regional hookups preferred.

Thanks

 

[viper548]

I'm not a fan of pilot factories but it seems like All ATPS is the way to go

 

[Baronman]

All ATP is the biggest factory out there now....it's like a puppy mill.

 

[172driver]

I had a terrible experience with All ATP's when I did their ATP course. Wouldn't recommend it. Also, they pay their CFI's $9600/yr for working six days a week, 12 hr days.

No MEI there has more than 400 hrs TT because that's when they get hired by the regionals. If my experience was typical, I feel sorry for whoever is babysitting those guys in a jet. They were able to scare me plenty in a light twin. Flying was ok, but maturity and decision making skills were nonexistent. We had electrical failure in a PA44, VFR night, and my MEI (PIC) had not the first clue how to get down without his Garmin. No charts to be found on the airplane or with him. Might be a cheaper school than some others but you get what you pay for sometimes.

Don't know the cost but UND and Flight Safety are good ones. Delta Connection Academy is mismanaged and overpriced but has excellent training.

 

[pdub20s]

I had a terrible experience with All ATP's when I did their ATP course. Wouldn't recommend it. Also, they pay their CFI's $9600/yr for working six days a week, 12 hr days.

No MEI there has more than 400 hrs TT because that's when they get hired by the regionals. If my experience was typical, I feel sorry for whoever is babysitting those guys in a jet. They were able to scare me plenty in a light twin. Flying was ok, but maturity and decision making skills were nonexistent. We had electrical failure in a PA44, VFR night, and my MEI (PIC) had not the first clue how to get down without his Garmin. No charts to be found on the airplane or with him. Might be a cheaper school than some others but you get what you pay for sometimes.

Don't know the cost but UND and Flight Safety are good ones. Delta Connection Academy is mismanaged and overpriced but has excellent training.

Hey man..lay off the ATP guys...i think you just had a bad experience with them. but I agree that it is not acceptable to not have the supplies for flight and etc. But not all the CFIs are bad ones. But i agree with the other post..ATP is the way to go. Im glad I went with them.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

No wonder pilots have zero skills anymore.

 

[CX880]

No wonder pilots have zero skills anymore.

You've got a better chance of parting the seas then go from Inst-MEI in 90 days. No way is somebody going to go through ground/flying in 90 unless they're being helped along the way with "understanding" CFI/examiners.

 

[SpinDoctor]

Hey man..lay off the ATP guys...i think you just had a bad experience with them. but I agree that it is not acceptable to not have the supplies for flight and etc. But not all the CFIs are bad ones. But i agree with the other post..ATP is the way to go. Im glad I went with them.

I don't get it. You give a guy/gal a hard time because they are critical of All ATPs, yet your only support is that you agree with other posters and that you are glad you chose All ATPs.

Why should 172Driver lay off the ATP guys/gals? He/she had a bad experience with them, and stated the reason why. You on the other hand just blindly agree with other posters. You also just think that 172Driver had a bad experience with All ATPs. Well, he/she did! 172Driver is just trying to relay their experience, and you jump his/her ship on it. Why?

If you were to have a bad experience on ExpressJet/Mesaba/Pinnacle/Chautauqua/Eagle/TransState/Mesa/Comair/ASA/SkyWest would you be the first to post about what a crappy airline it is? Or would you just say, "lay off THOSE guys."? Would you say, "Hey man, lay off those Mesa guys!" if you had a good experience on Mesa? I don't see you standing up for anybody other than yourself and All ATPs, and for no other reason than to just hear yourself talk.

What made your experience with All ATPs so good? Maybe you would like to share the experience you had with that school so everybody/anybody on this board can form their own decision. Or do you just want to give another poster crap because you can?

BTW where are you a chief pilot?

SD

 

[pdub20s]

You've got a better chance of parting the seas then go from Inst-MEI in 90 days. No way is somebody going to go through ground/flying in 90 unless they're being helped along the way with "understanding" CFI/examiners.

yea its from your ppl- CFII-MEI. And 90-days is whats laid out in the training syllabus. but no one does it in exactly 90 days...more like 100-130 days..

 

[redflyer65]

They've been doing it for YEARS. So yes, it can be done. And they do the same program across the country, so I doubt its one soft examiner as you elude to. The place is run by pilots, so you know they watch cost.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Depends on how much money you have.

If you are broke go to AllATPS, get it done fast and on the cheap. Seniority IS everything and remember, 172Driver's complaint was that the AllATPs instructors were getting hired so fast he could not....

All ATP's doesn't talk about it much, but you could just get your Multi, Instrument, Commercial in the Seminole. We are talking in and out in less than a week at minimal expense if you already had your instrument rating.

If you are loaded, then Embry Riddle seems to be the ticket. Riddle's best deal is to take advantage of the internships and other networking opportunities that provide an easy in with good airlines like Continental, etc....

AllATPs gets the job done quick and cheap (but doesn't leave you much to put on a resume other than your Certificates and flight time), Riddle can help you get in the door to the next level after you have a couple years in RJ's.

There are good pilots that come out of every school, but flying the line the best I've seen are usually the night freight pilots.

 

[172driver]

OK. To expand on my last post, my experience was bad from start to finish, not all due to the MEI's working there. In fact, I place very little blame on them, for they can only do what they were trained to do.

1. ATP's sent me a letter explaining what to bring and what they would provide. They didn't do it. They tried to send me on an FAA checkride for an ATP rating with a total of two approach plates that they had printed off a computer, that had expired six years ago. No sectional, no enroute, no airport diagram, nothing current at all. When I balked, their explanation was that that is their standard procedure. They didn't have a current approach plate anywhere at the school. I ended up having to call company HQ in JAX. Talked to the big boss there and he couldn't really understand my concern. His solution was to have them print me off current plates for the airport I was going to. I bought my own.

2. Airplane was misscheduled. Ended up receiving less than half the training I paid for. What I did receive was at night.

3. No process for deicing the airplane. Was an hour late for my FAA ride because we had to wait for the sun to melt the frost on the airplane.

4. When I informed them of the problems, I received zero money back.

So, you see, I am not condemning them for one small thing. It seems the rot reaches to the top. Yes, a lot of people go there and succeed, as did I, but that does not mean the training or the company is good.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

No charts to be found on the airplane or with him. Might be a cheaper school than some others but you get what you pay for sometimes.

So YOU did not have any charts? You were going for your ATP and you did not carry charts? I think I see the problem.

I did my ATP with them. I had a great experience. The problem I have heard from their instructors is that guys show up with 1300 hours in a 172 in the traffic pattern and have not done an instrument approach or any multi in forever. If you show up there expecting them to spoon feed you then you are going to struggle. If you buckle down and prepare (they provide you with all the info you need for each rating) on your own time then they are a good place. Plus you get all the multi.

 

[Smacktard]

I had a terrible experience with All ATP's when I did their ATP course. Wouldn't recommend it. Also, they pay their CFI's $9600/yr for working six days a week, 12 hr days.

Someone didn't pass their ATP after 3 days of training ehh?

 

[~~~^~~~]

172Driver - Those are legitimate complaints. But, they are also perfect for refining your expectations of the regional airline pilot job where you will get to experience:
* Dead heading for four days and returning home having not even unpacked your flight bag.
* Going out for a "round trip" and still being on the road 6 days later. Chief Pilots will tell you to wash their underwear in the sink. All of us have in fact, washed some article of clothing in the sink and rigged the heater to blow moldy air on our clothes to dry them.
* You will get shorted on your pay
* Your bags will get lost
* Some days you can't get fuel. Other days the lav gets serviced three times on a 40 minute turn. There is no way to predict which days this will happen on, but during any day in which Basketball playoffs are ongoing your airplane will not get parked until there is a commercial break.
* Your parking delay is directly proporational to how bad you have to urinate.
* Your phone will ring on Major Holidays. You will hear "First Off.." or "Captain" and have the inclination to curl up in the fetal position and cry.
* Less than $20,000 a year when you were away from base nearly 4,000 hours.
* the opportunity to sleep on the airplane (cargo nets can be made into hammocks)
* and of course some of the best flying, equipment and crews around anywhere.

So you are right, all ATP's is the "regional airline" of the flight training world. Like most things a "good deal" involves cutting corners somewhere.

 

[FrozenPilot]

Since this is now an ATP thread, I'll chime in with an observation I had this week.

Was coming back from a 5 hour day of surveying and lo and behold, an ATP Seminole closed the main runway at FWS. Lucky for me, FWS has a 4000' grass strip in great condition. Tower seemed surprised an Aztec wanted to land on the grass, but its like an old friend.

Anyway, the Seminole departed the runway in the first 1000' with a locked right brake, and got stuck in soft turf. They left about 200' of skidmarks before coming to rest prior to the TDZ. After being pushed out by a lektro tug, they went around the pattern a couple times before going on to who knows where. I don't know what they were doing, my guess is a simulated engine fail on takeoff roll, but I wonder about the decision to fly and even continue training immediately thereafter.

 

[Hootie9750]

Go to the most expensive fancy school you can find. When you get out and your take home pay is $1200 a month and your school payments are $800 a month, declare bankruptcy. I always get a kick out of dumb*sses who have $80 grand of debt and a job at a regional.

 

[Sig]

Was coming back from a 5 hour day of surveying and lo and behold, an ATP Seminole closed the main runway at FWS.

Ahh... FWS. I met Pappy. That was back when Duane Cole would show up and be his old self.... that was a while ago. I grew up at the top of the hill to the west, when there was just one street up there.

 

[pdub20s]

172drive -- do you have your receipts? ATP IS SUPPOSED TO REIMBERES YOU FOR ALL THE CHARTS AND ETC YOU BUY FOR TRAINING!!!

 

[172driver]

Squirrel -- I was told by ATP to bring a passport, certs, medical, and headset. All other items, including charts, kneeboard, etc. would be provided as part of the training cost. I was certainly multi-engine IFR current and proficient, having flown 800-900 hrs the previous year. They didn't spoon feed me anything. I had the procedures and limitations nailed when I got there. Just needed some practice time to get used to a light twin again. As I said, I didn't get the time I was promised (5.0, I believe). The time I did get was at night (1.0) and a x-c to see the examiner (1.5). Not real productive as far as training goes.

Smacktard -- you are wrong sir. Got the ATP on the first try due to my ability to overcome the adverse circumstances I was subjected to by ATP. I performed well on the ride but went in less confident and had to work a lot harder than I should have, had I been provided the training I paid for.

Fins -- Tell me about it. I was getting my ATP not to join the regional airline world, but to escape it (Comair). I am much happier and treated like an actual human being now (NJA).

 

[regionaltard]

I'm told that Jet Blue trains a lot of pilots for the Airlines.

 

[Juvat]

I realize the risk of starting yet another sarcasm thread, but, what are the top pilot factories out there these days? Got a guy who wants to fly for a living--could not talk him out of it. He'll get his!

Anywho, any info would be great. Cheapest with regional hookups preferred.

Thanks

Answer: United States Air Force Academy.

Pilot training cost = $0
Starting pay (after graduation) = a lot more than a CFI or regional job
Fringe benefit = Chicks dig fighter pilots

 

[KSACviator]

Really?

They've been doing it for YEARS. So yes, it can be done. And they do the same program across the country, so I doubt its one soft examiner as you elude to. The place is run by pilots, so you know they watch cost.

OK, maybe it's not one soft examiner, but I don't think there are too many more. For example, I know all the ATP guys out of Sacramento fly to Las Vegas to do all their checkrides because they have the "hook up" with an examiner there. Apparently the Sacramento based FAA DE's failed them too often. Pathetic. Flying out of state to take your checkride really says something. Man up and know your sh*t -- you'll be using it for the rest of your life. The only person you're cheating is yourself, and it'll show in interviews..... if you ever make it to an airline.

Another thing -- ATP guys love to tell everyone about how all the airlines "hire them right up". Yeah, sure, they hire the good ones. Why wouldn't they get hired if their flying skills are up to par? BUT, think of how many ATPers get shown to the door at interviews compared to others. There are A LOT.

I know of some CFI's who interviewed at FBO's who initially did their training at ATP. One story that sticks is of a CFI who got up in the air with the Chief Pilot, and couldn't handle radios and flying at the same time in basic ops during the interview flight. Reason behind this? Apparently, ATP trains their guys "airline style"..... and they're not taught to talk on the radios and fly the plane at the same time. I don't give a sh*t what kind of training course you go through, or what you're trained for -- a CFI should be able to fly a 172.... AND talk to controllers at the same time. A Cessna doesn't require two pilots, and nor do your Seminoles.

 

[KSACviator]

[FROM 172 DRIVER]The time I did get was at night (1.0) and a x-c to see the examiner (1.5). Not real productive as far as training goes.

------

Oh yeah.. this is exactly what I was talking about in my post above.

You boys keep building that quality time. I hope you feel great when you pass your checkrides. Maybe one day you can go out and ask a real DE if he'll give you a "Permission to talk on the radio while operating aircraft AT THE SAME TIME" endorsement.

ATP's program is a pilot mill...... well, maybe not a pilot mill, but definitely some sort of mill. ATP knows their training program constantly cuts corners. Why else would they send you to Vegas for your checkride? I guess what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

 

[Aviation Geek]

I'll back up 172driver's observations of All ATPs. I would not send anybody there for the 90 day program. I had a very similar experience and the very same kind of interactions with the "home office." Here is what I observed in my short and expensive time:

* They send you to the check ride when they are ready to send you... not when you are ready. You have "x" number of hours, you go to the check ride - not when you are trained well enough to pass.
* The home office is downright rude when it comes to customer service. I saw this not only in my case, but three other students at my location. When you are in the room with people screaming into the phone about billing, flying, scheduling issues, then you know there are problems. There are no refunds without a lawsuit.
* Many of the instructors know only how to teach the "ATP way." You ask them for any further explanation about a complex matter, they just do not know.
* The CFIs have no supervision. They are overworked and under paid. They have to beg for days off. My instructor regularly fell asleep in the plane. He once woke up on landing. They work 14-16 hours everyday and are forced to live in really poor conditions. Not only are the teaching, but doing sales, test administration, and office management.
* The decision making is appalling. I participated in a conversation with a 500 hour CFI who wanted to fly the Seminole into a line of thunderstorms to get a multi cross country out of the way. He was more worried about what the boss would say about the trip being canceled than the safety of his student or his own. He took it all the way to actually getting his wx. He said it was odd that the guy at the FSS suggested that it might not be a good evening to fly due to the wx. As we all know.. most FSS NEVER make "suggestions" about flying. I finally told the guy that if there was a problem or an incident, I would not hesitate to tell the authorities about the "decision making" that went on prior to departure.
* The DE we used was appalled with the skill level the was seeing. He even told us such. I thank that man every day for suggesting I get out of there.
* The CFIs have no idea what to do in an emergency - again witnessed first hand with an on board emergency.
* They teach you not to worry about the radios as you can learn that at the regionals when you get there (what my instructor actually said).

For the above reasons, I left. I wanted more out of flying than they could give me.

But with all that said... some people really enjoyed there time there and got a lot out of them. They certainly have a wonderful track record placing junior pilots in the industry. You just have to really come fully equipped to pass before you get there. You must be willing to learn the deep aviation stuff on your own. They will teach you, in 90 days, how to manipulate the controls. It will probably not be a lot of fun. I finally found a great school and have had a lot of fun, met great people, learned a great deal and feel pretty well trained. Then again, I have met people who absolutely hated my flight school. Much of this is really subjective.

 

[172driver]

I think, after further reflection, I would do my training Pt 61 these days. The airline affiliation at the big schools really doesn't mean much when the regionals are hiring people at 400-600 TT.

 

[Goose Egg]

This thread has made me feel really, really good about my instructing style.

-Goose

 

[John Pennekamp]

I feel sorry for whoever is babysitting those guys in a jet. They were able to scare me plenty in a light twin.

That would be me. ASA is letting these 300 hour wonderpilots fly a 70 seat jet. As you would expect, some are good, and some are terrible. However, there's no in between. The ones that are bad are very bad, and you're basically a single pilot operation. I'm just glad I have a CFI. There's times I should get to log dual given.

 

[FlySacto]

OK, maybe it's not one soft examiner, but I don't think there are too many more. For example, I know all the ATP guys out of Sacramento fly to Las Vegas to do all their checkrides because they have the "hook up" with an examiner there. Apparently the Sacramento based FAA DE's failed them too often. Pathetic. Flying out of state to take your checkride really says something. Man up and know your sh*t -- you'll be using it for the rest of your life. The only person you're cheating is yourself, and it'll show in interviews..... if you ever make it to an airline.

Another thing -- ATP guys love to tell everyone about how all the airlines "hire them right up". Yeah, sure, they hire the good ones. Why wouldn't they get hired if their flying skills are up to par? BUT, think of how many ATPers get shown to the door at interviews compared to others. There are A LOT.

I know of some CFI's who interviewed at FBO's who initially did their training at ATP. One story that sticks is of a CFI who got up in the air with the Chief Pilot, and couldn't handle radios and flying at the same time in basic ops during the interview flight. Reason behind this? Apparently, ATP trains their guys "airline style"..... and they're not taught to talk on the radios and fly the plane at the same time. I don't give a sh*t what kind of training course you go through, or what you're trained for -- a CFI should be able to fly a 172.... AND talk to controllers at the same time. A Cessna doesn't require two pilots, and nor do your Seminoles.

I've heard the same thing from the DPE's here in Sacramento. One told me he wouldn't do anymore rides for them because they just were not showing anything close to knowing what was needed to pass the ride. I also knew the Chief instructor at the KSAC for ATP a few years back. This guy was good and I had worked with him in the past. I caught him on the ramp one day after thinking he had left the area. His will to live was close to a breaking point. His opinion was the combination of let's pump them out the door fast and cheap along with guys who were too eager to go to an airline and not willing to put the time and effort into LEARNING what was reallly needed was a beatiful combination. Passing your checkride means nothing. I guess it provides good material for interviews though when you get to talk about that "pinked" checkride you spent a week preparing for after flying the real airplane for 2 1/2 hours instead of their sim. Talk about not handling the radios and situation awareness:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030605X00790&key=1

 

[pdub20s]

Well i know you guys are expecting me to chime in..well here i am.

1. I dont know why the guys fly to Vegas for the check rides when the FAA is all over the place there. I can think of one examiner who is a "************************* cat" there but the rest are up-standing DEs.

2. I think it all depends on what training center at ATP you go to. I did mine in Riverside and got the best training money can buy.And every CFI i flew with down there knew how to multi-task just fine.And they teach you how.In the check rides(especially the Inst) with the examiner we use, you do the radios,comms,and flying, while hold "blue line". I dont know how many of you guys did your whole Inst check ride Single Eng.? The examiner we used is NO ************************* CAT AT ALL!!

3. And you say they dont know how to hand Emerg. ..HAHA One of our CFIs lost his radios in IMC,on approach, in the Van nuys area. And if you guys are familiar with that environment..There are HILLS EVERWHERE.. And he is still walking around today flying a Falcon all over the country.

So i understnad you guys have your gripes and bad experiences. Im sure there area few bad apples in the bunch. But it just isnt right to brand the whole company based off a few bad experiences.


But then again..defending something on this board is like pissing into the wind.