ALPA - Slap in the Face!

[AvroJockey]

I've been an ALPA member in good standing for 8 years.

I think it's a slap in the face for every pilot that operates to the highest standard possible, when ALPA defends complete unadulterated negligence.

Not once does ALPA National or the 9E MEC mention the probable cause of this accident!!!:angryfire They only focus on contributing factors!

ALPA!!!!
WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO PREVENT OR DETER THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR IN THE FUTURE?
QUIT TRYING TO SAVE FACE...YOUR ONLY SLAPPING THEM!!!

I don't care much about core lock (A condition which they caused!)! I care about the crew's professionalism, experience, and reputation, of the flight I put my family on!

 

[DrewBlows]

ALPA is paid to defend all of it's members, so they do. It's pretty simple, I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle about it. It's not unlike a lawyer who is paid to defend a client. What would you do if the lawyer, you hired to defend you in your (notice proper use of the word "your") divorce, released a press release saying that you were a lousy husband who cheated on and abused
your wife. Even if it were true I bet you would think it were inappropriate, at the very least.

 

[Shrek]

Uhhh they are bound by law..........

And Core-lock isn't always caused by what event you are describing.........

 

[rickair7777]

Yes, ALPA clearly has a duty to defend it's members.

However...in this case they run the risk of sending the wrong implied message to some of the younger, less-clued members. Their lack of response to the professionalism issue could be interpreted as tacit approval or tolerance of that sort of behavior.

ALPA should "coincidentally" issue a professional standards newsletter at this time...addressing some basic professionalism issues relevant to the spiky-hair/ipod crowd without specifically mentioning PNCL.

 

[acaTerry]

What would you do if the lawyer, you hired to defend you in your (notice proper use of the word "your") divorce, released a press release saying that you were a lousy husband who cheated on and abused
your wife. Even if it were true I bet you would think it were inappropriate, at the very least.

I don't. If you did that, then it's totally appropriate to display. Why hide the facts? Truth is truth, whether it shames someone or not. Should we deny rape victims their justice in court because it makes the rapist look bad?

 

[acaTerry]

Uhhh they are bound by law..........

And Core-lock isn't always caused by what event you are describing.........

In this case it was.

 

[Golden Falcon]

actually it appears core lock was a result of other preceeding events...lots of engines we fly suffer from thermal distortion in one form or another..guess in this case it wasn't readily available info...

 

[SplitBar]

It's like having a few beers during happy hour and then blaming the kid for jaywalking and blaming the brewery for making the beer too strong as a reason for running him over.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think it is pretty obvious...the behavior of the flight crews. Would a re-issuance of the ALPA Code Of Ethics be in order?

Why not use this event as a medium to promote professionalism at your carrier. If you want something done.... then do it! are you going to wait for someone or something you can't directly control? Why not lead a subtle but firm push to promote professionalism and airmanship at your carrier?

Why does ALPA need to say what the FAA and NTSB have already said?

 

[superatr]

I've been an ALPA member in good standing for 8 years.

So...what are you doing to ensure professionalism in the cockpit? You can write on FI, can you write a story on professionalism for your MEC to use? How 'bout speaking with the new hires at your airline about professionalism?

Being an ALPA member is an active process, not a passive one. Get involved.

 

[FlyingFerris]

Words

This is not how unions used to work. They took care of their own, when they were being mistreated, or they handed down discipline when their when they did something unproffesional. In fact most of the skilled trade unions still do this today. Misbehave and make the union look bad, you get fined, or removed from the union. Trying to hide what happen under the rug sends out a bad message, and personally I find lawyers trying to find every loop hole to get clients out of trouble when they damn well know they're guilty is pretty morally disgusting.

 

[SEVEN]

The Madness!!!

1800 Hour Captains coming soon to a CRJ near you.

:uzi: 1800 Hour Captains flying at 500 Knots:smash:

 

[rickair7777]

1800 Hour Captains coming soon to a CRJ near you.

:uzi: 1800 Hour Captains flying at 500 Knots:smash:

Who allows upgrades at 1800 hours???

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Who allows upgrades at 1800 hours???

The DoD. and its 300 hours......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

......

 

[Texx]

Trying to hide what happen under the rug sends out a bad message, and personally I find lawyers trying to find every loop hole to get clients out of trouble when they dang well know they're guilty is pretty morally disgusting.

Isn't it the same thing lawyers do for the airlines? CMR, MAIR, DAL, UAL, USAir, EAL, CAL and lets not for get Mr Frank Lorenzo etc....

You gonna bring a knife or a gun to a rock fight?

 

[FlyingFerris]

Isn't it the same thing lawyers do for the airlines? CMR, MAIR, DAL, UAL, USAir, EAL, CAL and lets not for get Mr Frank Lorenzo etc....

You gonna bring a knife or a gun to a rock fight?

The difference being is it was a screw up, everyone knows it was a screw up, and defending that makes you look like a screw up. Just because lots of people steal and kill people doesn't make it right, unless we use your logic.

Not bashing on the guys, as obviously they paid the price and I don't need to go any further then that, other then I thanks my lucky stars I've had someone riding on my shoulder on some of my screw ups.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is not how unions used to work. They took care of their own, when they were being mistreated, or they handed down discipline when their when they did something unproffesional. In fact most of the skilled trade unions still do this today. Misbehave and make the union look bad, you get fined, or removed from the union. Trying to hide what happen under the rug sends out a bad message, and personally I find lawyers trying to find every loop hole to get clients out of trouble when they dang well know they're guilty is pretty morally disgusting.

Do you have any references to unions that operated this way? How is this not just your belief or perception?

So if you were in criminal court for a felony, facing jail time, you'd take the DA's sentence or would you hire a lawyer and get a fair and reasonable deal out of court....

Would you volunteer your life?

These guys did... that is why there isn't a need for a judge.... except on FI... there are plenty....

 

[FlyingFerris]

Do you have any references to unions that operated this way? How is this not just your belief or perception?

My father being in a construction union and part of it's leadership for as long as I can remember.

I wouldn't know, if I was forced to defend myself I would be inocent, and if I did commit a crime, I wouldn't be looking for a loophole to get me out of my wrong doings. Again, just because others commit crimes isn't a valid defense for you too.

Again ALPA is trying to put the horse before the cart on this one. All these contributing factors wouldn't have been contributing factors, if airmen hadn't been screwing arround with an aircraft at it's limit, and then latter exceeding or not meeting other published limits on the way down.

Again we've all had fun on repo flights, so I'm not saying what they did was the first time something like that has happened, or won't happen in the future. However this defense of actions that resulted in a multi million dollar aircraft that was otherwise good (or at least in a safe condition for flight,) is pretty laughable. ALPA would so much better be served by saying, yup that was a screw up and we're going to learn from it, and we will make sure none of the aircrews represented by us are involved in something like this again.

 

[SEVEN]

Who allows upgrades at 1800 hours???

Soon to be Pinnacle. They are trying to get it approved. Lower mins for Captains. From 3000 Hours to 1800 Hours. Scary stuff.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My father being in a construction union and part of it's leadership for as long as I can remember.

Does said union have the FAA, NTSB and Air transport Association (ATA) to point out the workers faults?

I wouldn't know, if I was forced to defend myself I would be inocent, and if I did commit a crime, I wouldn't be looking for a loophole to get me out of my wrong doings. Again, just because others commit crimes isn't a valid defense for you too.

I am not saying that 'becuase others commit crimes it is ok'. What I am saying is.. it is acceptable to have representation to seek a fair, reasonable and agreeable settlement. Don't you agree?

Again ALPA is trying to put the horse before the cart on this one. All these contributing factors wouldn't have been contributing factors, if airmen hadn't been screwing arround with an aircraft at it's limit, and then latter exceeding or not meeting other published limits on the way down.

By not saying the pilots screwed up are they saying the pilots are not at fault? Does ALPA need to put press releases out? Internal memo's? Email? What exactly are you looking for ALPA to do? Can you provide a draft of what it would be?

Again we've all had fun on repo flights, so I'm not saying what they did was the first time something like that has happened, or won't happen in the future. However this defense of actions that resulted in a multi million dollar aircraft that was otherwise good (or at least in a safe condition for flight,) is pretty laughable. ALPA would so much better be served by saying, yup that was a screw up and we're going to learn from it, and we will make sure none of the aircrews represented by us are involved in something like this again.

Well, if ALPA should be saying that shouldn't the company be saying that too? They interviewed them, trained them and gave them the flight release. And what about the FAA that doesn't mandate high altitude training?

The NTSB has already highligted these pilots failures. It has been said.

The core lock issues is valid. the weak training is valid. Can we learn from it? Who is going to say the company and FAA mandated training is weak? The FAA? The penny pinching company?

If you think about it, all the issues are being addressed.. just not by the parties that you think should be...................

 

[PCL_128]

Someone has to speak up and point out the contributing factors in this accident. Yes, the pilots screwed up. We all know that, and no one is denying that. However, there is nothing to be gained by bashing a couple of guys that paid for their unprofessionalism with their own lives. There is much to be gained by pointing out the inadequate training that is currently common-place at many regionals. There is much to be gained by pointing out that most CRJ operators don't teach pilots about core-lock (a situation that can happen to anyone due to severe turbulence, volcanic ash, lightning strike, etc...). Let's use this opportunity to advocate for improvements that are important for safety. ALPA is the only one that will do that. The NTSB has pointed out very well that the pilots caused this accident. Fine. Now let's move past that and get some safety improvements in this industry.

 

[SplitBar]

Isn't there also much to be gained by pointing out that we need to follow SOP & Aircraft Limitations whilst conducting ourselfs in a professional manner?

 

[FlyingFerris]

Does said union have the FAA, NTSB and Air transport Association (ATA) to point out the workers faults?

No but they have OSHA, EPA, local governments, a host of other government agencies, as well as the client to do that. Face it Rezz were not the only industry with heavy government oversight, in fact it's hard to be in one that deal with the public that doesn't these days.

Well, if ALPA should be saying that shouldn't the company be saying that too? They interviewed them, trained them and gave them the flight release. And what about the FAA that doesn't mandate high altitude training?

Why should an employer need to remind it's employees that they should act professional in the work place, especially when an organisation that supposedly should self police is in place. I thought the FAA did mandate high altitude training before this accident, it was just glossed over, and yes ALPA has a duty to point out this fault.

The core lock issues is valid. the weak training is valid. Can we learn from it? Who is going to say the company and FAA mandated training is weak? The FAA? The penny pinching company?

The core lock issue would have been much more valid if they were in the relight envelope that GE bothered to write down in this case. I haven't heard of many corelocks on those engines otherwise, but my previous company only had 2 CRJ's and the current one is just getting them soI plead ignorance on that. After that your points are valid

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No but they have OSHA, EPA, local governments, a host of other government agencies, as well as the client to do that. Face it Rezz were not the only industry with heavy government oversight, in fact it's hard to be in one that deal with the public that doesn't these days.

Agreed. As we are in the traveling public we are viewed with a magnifying glass. Others too... we are nothing special....

Why should an employer need to remind it's employees that they should act professional in the work place, especially when an organisation that supposedly should self police is in place. I thought the FAA did mandate high altitude training before this accident, it was just glossed over, and yes ALPA has a duty to point out this fault.

An employer should remind its employees because it is called leadership. If an employer doesn't then then are saying it is ok. Just like you want ALPA to do so. I'd like to see the draft of the doc you'd like ALPA issue. How about the ALPA Code of Ethics, which by the way, most pilots haven't read.

Why does ALPA have a duty? Who has a duty to push high alt training and core lock? GE? the FAA?

The core lock issue would have been much more valid if they were in the relight envelope that GE bothered to write down in this case. I haven't heard of many corelocks on those engines otherwise, but my previous company only had 2 CRJ's and the current one is just getting them soI plead ignorance on that. After that your points are valid

They passed away. Thier weak professionalism and airmanship is noted.

 

[DrewBlows]

I don't. If you did that, then it's totally appropriate to display. Why hide the facts? Truth is truth, whether it shames someone or not. Should we deny rape victims their justice in court because it makes the rapist look bad?

Let me just restate what you have just said here. You have no problem with the lawyer that YOU hire to DEFEND YOU, issued a press release with evidence that you abused and cheated on your wife (this is, of course, a fictitous portrayal for argument's sake).

That seems a little silly to me. Either you don't understand how representation works or you consider yourself to be of such high moral character that you would take whatever punishment is proposed for you. Even Preists hire lawyers when they are accused of molesting kids.

 

[XJohXJ]

Our entire systems of justice and any other truth-seeking-forums in our nation are based on adversity and advocacy. Any time two parties go into a courtroom (or in front of some truth-seeking panel), the two parties are adversaries.

Because our systems have been worked over by politicians, lawyers, and other monied interests for over two hundred years, it is incredibly complex and convoluted, far beyond the understanding and abilities of non-professionals.

Anyone who goes before any truth seeking forum must have professional advocates on their side, comitted 100% to their best defense, in order to marshal the "truth" through the process. Any person who does not seek the best advocate for themselves is just plain ignorant and stupid, and will suffer as a result.

One of the things all ALPA pilots purchase with their dues money is ALPA's comittment to serve as their highly skilled and professional advocates any time an incident occurs which involves a truth-seeking forum.

This is the American system. Anyone who thinks ALPA should not defend all members is simply anti-American.

Defending someone professionally does not mean hiding the truth. Defending someone means making sure that all relevant issues are discussed.

Is anyone here silly enough to think that the airlines and manufacturers don't have multi-million dollar defense teams (as well as lobbyists) representing their corporations to the NTSB, FAA, Federal Government and Courts?

ALPA is doing their job, exactly as the should be, in representing the pilots.

 

[TinGoose1]

The correct response to this accident would be to force 9E to re-engineer their training department. So what has been done to fix 9E's horrific safety record? This forum isn't big enough to list all of the close calls that the pilots at 9E have put themselves, and their passengers in. Simple solution is to make public all of the FAA certificate actions that take place. I believe 9E is leading the pack at the moment. Those two pilots didn't do anything that was out of the ordinary at 9E, they unfortunately just got caught.

-TG

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Our entire systems of justice and any other truth-seeking-forums in our nation are based on adversity and advocacy. Any time two parties go into a courtroom (or in front of some truth-seeking panel), the two parties are adversaries.

Because our systems have been worked over by politicians, lawyers, and other monied interests for over two hundred years, it is incredibly complex and convoluted, far beyond the understanding and abilities of non-professionals.

Anyone who goes before any truth seeking forum must have professional advocates on their side, comitted 100% to their best defense, in order to marshal the "truth" through the process. Any person who does not seek the best advocate for themselves is just plain ignorant and stupid, and will suffer as a result.

One of the things all ALPA pilots purchase with their dues money is ALPA's comittment to serve as their highly skilled and professional advocates any time an incident occurs which involves a truth-seeking forum.

This is the American system. Anyone who thinks ALPA should not defend all members is simply anti-American.

Defending someone professionally does not mean hiding the truth. Defending someone means making sure that all relevant issues are discussed.

Is anyone here silly enough to think that the airlines and manufacturers don't have multi-million dollar defense teams (as well as lobbyists) representing their corporations to the NTSB, FAA, Federal Government and Courts?

ALPA is doing their job, exactly as the should be, in representing the pilots.

Bump!

 

[BusdrivnAce]

As somone who work inside of the ALPA safety structure, I know that the only reason that ALPA is invited to be a part of these investigations is because they are in search of the truth, not just defending the crew's honor.

They are truthful to their membership, in hopes that you will take that information and learn from it, even if it brings up some painful memories.