Legal to Start legal to finish??

[limpyoke]

Any one heard of this crap?

 

[arthompson]

No crap to it. The rules say you can't be scheduled over 8 hours in a day or over 30 hours in 7 days. The key word is *SCHEDULED* If you gate return, air return or divert and still maintain your original schedule for the day or if you start a day over 30/7 and over block you are legal to finish it. Scheduling Rules protect the pilots from being over worked by management, and they protect the company from A-Holes that intentionally over block to try to get out of work.

 

[svcta]

No crap to it. The rules say you can't be scheduled over 8 hours in a day or over 30 hours in 7 days. The key word is *SCHEDULED* If you gate return, air return or divert and still maintain your original schedule for the day or if you start a day over 30/7 and over block you are legal to finish it. Scheduling Rules protect the pilots from being over worked by management, and they protect the company from A-Holes that intentionally over block to try to get out of work.

Well, the flip side to that coin is that some companies routinely schedule a crew to max duty knowing full well that odds are they're getting more than legal limit out of them. So it's never been that evenly balanced in my experience.

 

[eaglefly]

legal for flighttime in a 24-hour period, but NOT legal for duty time.

 

[geardown]

If you are scheduled for 7:59 block and even the first leg goes 2 hrs over, you are still legal per the FARs to finish the whole days schedule as long as the don't change your schedule; i.e. flight number or city pair. The 16 hr duty day limitation is the only one that you can't exceed or your contract if it is more restrictive.

Fatigue would be the only thing that really gets you out of an excessivlely long day.

 

[PGTB]

If you start drinking before its cutoff time you are legal to finish after. Legal to Start, Legal to Finish.

 

[Beanie]

Wrong Art. You can fly more than 8 hours in a day(24 hour period). You have to perform a rolling look back after each flight segment and see the required rest within each 24 hour period. Any look back that does not include normal rest, must be no less than reduced rest. If you see reduced rest, then within 24 hours of the beginning of reduced you must begin compensatory rest.

Example:

You are begining this trip with the last three days off. Your duty time is 1200 local. You start your trip and fly 6 hours and duty off at 2200 local. You are normal rest of 9 hours. You duty back in at 0700. You fly 4 hours and duty off at 1200 local again. It has been 24 hours since you started your assignment and you have flown 10 hours. If you look back on the 24 however, you have the required rest (9 normal or 8 reduced) in that 24 hours. If you had been reduced to 8, then your compensatory rest would be 10 hours, to begin within 24 hours of when your started the reduced rest (2200 local in this case).

Here is how the legal to start, legal to finish comes into play. Let's say that your first duty period is scheduled for the 6 hours, but you get delayed half way through because of weather and you fly 9 hours instead. As long as your original schedule does not change, you do not "drop dead" at 8 hours of flying. Your normal rest in this case would now be 10 hours, reduced to 8, with 11 hours compensatory.

Duty time is different. There is no legal to start, legal to finish with duty time. If you are delayed and you can expect to exceed your 16 hour duty day, you cannot fly again until you have the required rest. If you are sitting at the gate and you have 14 hours of duty and one leg left that will cause you to duty out with 16 hours and 1 minute of duty time (flight plus the usual 15 minutes to duty out when the brake is set) you cannot fly that leg. You have dropped dead. This is also known as the Whitlow ruling.

KNOW THY SCHEDULING AND REST REQUIREMENTS. YOU WILL BE VIOLATED.

 

[wmuflyguy]

8 hours is between rest periods, not a 24hr period.

And 30hrs in 7 days is an actual flight time limitation.

 

[TheRaven]

8 hours is between rest periods, not a 24hr period.

And 30hrs in 7 days is an actual flight time limitation.

yes---but 30 in 7 can also be exceeded on the last day if you overfly....if you are projected under you can start the day...if projected over at the end of day 6 then they must modify your schedule so you are legal to start day 7..then you are legal to finish, regardless of how much you actually fly. The FAA can flag a company for unreasonable block times which consistently result in flight time exceedance, so most places don't play games too much lest their POI catch on and zap em with a fine.

 

[chperplt]

Wrong Art. You can fly more than 8 hours in a day(24 hour period). You have to perform a rolling look back after each flight segment and see the required rest within each 24 hour period. Any look back that does not include normal rest, must be no less than reduced rest. If you see reduced rest, then within 24 hours of the beginning of reduced you must begin compensatory rest.

KNOW THY SCHEDULING AND REST REQUIREMENTS. YOU WILL BE VIOLATED.

What he said.... It's really not that complicated if you break it down step by step. Keep yourself safe or be sure the company will self disclose in a second!

If anyone is truly confused about this, feel free to PM me. I did my Masters thesis in 121 flight time limitations and crew rest.

 

[Texx]

Wrong Art. You can fly more than 8 hours in a day(24 hour period). .

A "day" and a "24 hr period" are different.

 

[urflyingme?!]

If at the start of a flight segment you are going to exceed 30/7, you're going back to the gate

 

[Flyin2low]

Wrong!

 

[chperplt]

If at the start of a flight segment you are going to exceed 30/7, you're going back to the gate

IF by flight segment you mean the 1st flight of the day, then you would be correct. If you mean leg 3 of 4, then you'll be going to see your CP for refusing a legal assignment.

 

[SiuDude]

You are begining this trip with the last three days off. Your duty time is 1200 local. You start your trip and fly 6 hours and duty off at 2200 local. You are normal rest of 9 hours. You duty back in at 0700. You fly 4 hours and duty off at 1200 local again. It has been 24 hours since you started your assignment and you have flown 10 hours. If you look back on the 24 however, you have the required rest (9 normal or 8 reduced) in that 24 hours. If you had been reduced to 8, then your compensatory rest would be 10 hours, to begin within 24 hours of when your started the reduced rest (2200 local in this case).

Not quite true. If you are scheduled for more than 9 hours of flight time in a 24 hour period, your required rest becomes 11 hours which can be reduced to 9 hours. The next day, your compensatory rest should be at least 12 hours.

 

[Beanie]

Not quite true. If you are scheduled for more than 9 hours of flight time in a 24 hour period, your required rest becomes 11 hours which can be reduced to 9 hours. The next day, your compensatory rest should be at least 12 hours.

You are correct. It was an example and didn't think it all the way through. Thanks.

Texx: Interpret it how you want. Just know what the requirements are, and the requirment is not 8 hours a day.

 

[shelton]

It should be noted that legal to start legal to finish is not the case during all circumstances. I think the FARs talk about weather, atc delays, etc. In other words, things outside the company's control. For instance, ASA back in August had us sitting on the ramp sometimes well over an hour due to lack of rampers. This is so well within the companies control it is not even funny. So, in that case, you could very well be violated. There are some interpretations on the FAAs website that discuss this.

This should be the link to the interpretation search:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/

 

[ehoulli]

So 30 in 7 is an actual limitation...??? I haven't been too close, maybe 28 hrs or so. I have a buddy that had 6 days ending up being scheduled at 29:51 and he wasn't sure if his last turn would go over block. I couldn't tell him for sure if 30/7 is scheduled or actual.

So if you have an inkling that you're going to go over block and 30/7 is an actual flight time limitation, what recourse do you have? What if you make it to the outstation and then you determine that you'll go over block on the return leg, and it's day 6 of 6. Two nights in a hotel sounds not fun for sure! What a day to spend your day "off".

 

[SSDD]

It is NOT an actual limitation. If at the begining of the day you're scheduled for 29:51 and don't get reflowed you would he would be legal to do that last turn, even if it takes you over 30 hours. As long as your duty day doesn't exceed 16 hours.

 

[DoinTime]

and they protect the company from A-Holes that intentionally over block to try to get out of work.

They only protect the company from dumb a-holes who don't know that they need to overblock the day prior to the day they want to get removed from.