MEI Rating

[CalifDan]

Thought it might be worth asking this here.

I went out to my local airport today and let the instructor, who has flown a few times with me as a safety pilot, know that I wanted to get my Muiti-engine Instructor Rating. I am not a CFI, but I am Commercial Single and Multi engine and Instrument Airplane. He was not sure that I could get an MEI without the CFI (single engine), but I don't see anything that suggests that it can't be done. So that is the first question.

The second question is that he said the MEI includes the double I stuff, so the checkride will include all of that. I'm not sure exactly what that means except that it will be somewhat more work. I suppose it means I can provide instrument instruction in a twin but not in a single.

Now, you all will ask me why I want to do it this way.

I own a Duchess. I do what I can do fly it 150 hours per year at least and I would rather add a rating than just go up and fly in circles. The cost differential is the cost of the instructor. If I rent a single to do the CFI, I am not flying my airplane, which I need to do, and the hourly cost more than triples for the instruction (including aircraft). Seems to me that while the MEI may be more work and even take some additional time, it is time I would be flying anyway.

Finally, once I do this, how big a deal is it to add the CFI part? Or, am I already a CFI with a limitation to providing instruction in multi-engine aircraft only?

CalifDan

 

[unreal]

1. Yes, you absolutely can get your MEI as an initial. While getting the single engine first is typical for most people, it's not a requirement. Hell, I've known people who got a CFII as their initial. All it would mean is that you'd be able to give instruction in a multiengine airplane only.

2. Not really sure. It seems to me that you'd be able to do the MEI only, but it's been a long while since I've gone over this.

3. You'd be a CFI as soon as you passed your MEI checkride, but only with an Airplane Multiengine class rating on your certificate. As far as adding on the Single Engine class rating, it'd be as easy as doing whatever is in the PTS for it. Shouldn't be too difficult. The add-ons are typically not nearly as hard as the initial.

 

[AK47]

Thought it might be worth asking this here.

I went out to my local airport today and let the instructor, who has flown a few times with me as a safety pilot, know that I wanted to get my Muiti-engine Instructor Rating. I am not a CFI, but I am Commercial Single and Multi engine and Instrument Airplane. He was not sure that I could get an MEI without the CFI (single engine), but I don't see anything that suggests that it can't be done. So that is the first question.

The second question is that he said the MEI includes the double I stuff, so the checkride will include all of that. I'm not sure exactly what that means except that it will be somewhat more work. I suppose it means I can provide instrument instruction in a twin but not in a single.

Now, you all will ask me why I want to do it this way.

I own a Duchess. I do what I can do fly it 150 hours per year at least and I would rather add a rating than just go up and fly in circles. The cost differential is the cost of the instructor. If I rent a single to do the CFI, I am not flying my airplane, which I need to do, and the hourly cost more than triples for the instruction (including aircraft). Seems to me that while the MEI may be more work and even take some additional time, it is time I would be flying anyway.

Finally, once I do this, how big a deal is it to add the CFI part? Or, am I already a CFI with a limitation to providing instruction in multi-engine aircraft only?

CalifDan

Really surprised that your instructor friend doesn't know the answers to your questions.

You can do MEI as initial. There will be no "double I" stuff (unless you request it). You are a CFI as soon as you pass any of the flight instructor checkrides as your initial - since "single-engine" instructor checkrides as initial are much more common it became kind of standard to refer to "single-engine" instructors as simply "CFI".

To add single-engine rating to your instructor certificate is straightforward, all the tasks are described in the PTS.

 

[fastback]

Really surprised that your instructor friend doesn't know the answers to your questions.

You can do MEI as initial. There will be no "double I" stuff (unless you request it). You are a CFI as soon as you pass any of the flight instructor checkrides as your initial - since "single-engine" instructor checkrides as initial are much more common it became kind of standard to refer to "single-engine" instructors as simply "CFI".

To add single-engine rating to your instructor certificate is straightforward, all the tasks are described in the PTS.

Ditto what AK said. You can take the CFI Initial checkride and get an Airplane Multi Engine rating on it. The Airplane Single Engine and Instrument Airplane ratings would be add-ons. The instrument [CFII] can be done either in a single or a multi. You don't have to do multi-engine approaches to have multi and instrument priviledges on your CFI ticket.

 

[timeoff]

I have a question. If you only had your CFII, can't you technically give instrument instruction in both a single and a multi?

 

[AK47]

I have a question. If you only had your CFII, can't you technically give instrument instruction in both a single and a multi?

Not sure what scenario you have in mind. If you have CP-ASMEL and CFI-IA you can give instrument instruction in both a single and a multi. If CP-ASEL only then no instruction in a multi, 14 CFR 61.195 (c) states that quite clear.

 

[timeoff]

Yes, having both the commercial single and multi with only the CFII. Some guys at my school say that you can't instruct in a multi without having an MEI, period. I have always interpreted it as non-class specific.

 

[AK47]

Yes, having both the commercial single and multi with only the CFII. Some guys at my school say that you can't instruct in a multi without having an MEI, period. I have always interpreted it as non-class specific.

It may not be possible at your school from the insurance perspective, but there is nothing that stops it from the regulations' point of view.

 

[nosehair]

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitations and qualifications:
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

 

[minitour]

Yes you can do it as the initial. You'll be able to teach multiengine airplane students only (at first) unless you add the -IA to your CFI certificate at which time you could teach instrument students in multiengine and (assuming you've got a Commercial -Single Engine Land rating as well as Multi-engine land) single engine ariplanes.

If you just got the -IA you could (assuming you've got CSEL/CMEL-IA) teach instrument students in both single and multiengine airplanes (faa handbook 8700.1)

The MEI was fun for me because it was an add-on (had the CFI/II), but I'm sure you'll do fine. If you own the airplane you know it inside out and you shouldn't have any problems. Good luck and have fun!

-mini

 

[AK47]

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitations and qualifications:
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating.

That's for Aircraft ratings.

Take a look at 14 CFR 61.195 (c)

 

[nosehair]

That's for Aircraft ratings.

Take a look at 14 CFR 61.195 (c)

I know the debate. I've read it many times. I'm on the side of having to have the MEI to instruct anything in a ME.

I do not think that an online FAQ opinion from J. Lynch, or an old 8700.1 Inspector's Handbook will override a judge's interpretation of the regulation as it now stands.

For one, I know, and the judge knows, that the 8700.1 handbook is notriously outdated. True. Sometimes it is years before the habdbook is caught up with training regulation changes. They are focused on airline regulatory changes.
It holds no regulatory authority - like an advisory circular. It is an employee's guide on how to perform job tasks.

Aircraft ratings? What is that? I don't know of any instruction that is in any regulations required for the issuance of an Aircraft rating. The closest thing might be TYPE rating, and there is a reg to cover that.

So, we have to assume that it means instruction in any aircraft.

Further, if you dissect (c), it says:"...must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."

"category and class"...I think the judge can be talked into understanding that means ASEL and/or AMEL with IA ratings.

Hey! I don't make the rules. I try to follow them as best as I can interpret them

It did not used to read this way. The big change in '97 (Holy Cow! It's been 10 years now) added this verbage. I did get some multi-time back in the day as an instrument instructor before I got my MEI, and if it is done cautiously, I don't see the problem. As a matter of fact, way furthur back when I was a younger CFI, that was the rating - CFI. Period.

You could instruct whatever was on your commercial. You didn't have to have an instrument rating to be a CFI. Getting an instrument rating, or ME rating added to your commercial automatically made you an instructor in that area. That changed in the '70's.

Anyway, this change of '97 has not caught up with the old fossels who still give 'legal opinions' based on past years. Even when we read the current regs, it is easy to 'read into' old hardwired concepts. I do it all the time.

It is only because I read these boards that I have become aware of conceptual changes.

I am just advising the potential problem with the NTSB law judge and/or the insurance carrier if something happens.

The regulation speaks for itself. You are reading into it what you want it to say.

I used to do the same with the term PIC. When I read 61.51 logging PIC time, I was automatically reading PIC as meaning the actual PIC - the person who IS the PIC, and these are the logging rules for that person. It never occured to me that it could be a person not qualified to be the PIC, and yet, here are some rules for logging PIC, when you're not the PIC.

It's a regulatory mess created by our fumbling government.

And you should know that ignorance of the government is no excuse.

 

[VW Pilot]

So can you do this??? After Instrument ASEL Can you get all the ratings and certificates in between Commercial (Like CFI, CFII, MEI....MEI with the exception that you have a Multi-engine rating)

Is this what 141 schools do? Do they get you the Private through MEI then Commercial so you can use them?

 

[Junkflyer]

Yes you can start with an mei no double i stuff. That's exactly what I did-I don't have a single engine commercial. You can't do instrument training if it is a non-instrument rated pilot, but okay if they are. I don't have a cfii I did train someone for an atp multi no problem from the feds.

 

[AK47]

I know the debate. I've read it many times. I'm on the side of having to have the MEI to instruct anything in a ME.

I do not think that an online FAQ opinion from J. Lynch, or an old 8700.1 Inspector's Handbook will override a judge's interpretation of the regulation as it now stands.

For one, I know, and the judge knows, that the 8700.1 handbook is notriously outdated. True. Sometimes it is years before the habdbook is caught up with training regulation changes. They are focused on airline regulatory changes.
It holds no regulatory authority - like an advisory circular. It is an employee's guide on how to perform job tasks.

Aircraft ratings? What is that? I don't know of any instruction that is in any regulations required for the issuance of an Aircraft rating. The closest thing might be TYPE rating, and there is a reg to cover that.

So, we have to assume that it means instruction in any aircraft.

Further, if you dissect (c), it says:"...must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."

"category and class"...I think the judge can be talked into understanding that means ASEL and/or AMEL with IA ratings.

Hey! I don't make the rules. I try to follow them as best as I can interpret them

It did not used to read this way. The big change in '97 (Holy Cow! It's been 10 years now) added this verbage. I did get some multi-time back in the day as an instrument instructor before I got my MEI, and if it is done cautiously, I don't see the problem. As a matter of fact, way furthur back when I was a younger CFI, that was the rating - CFI. Period.

You could instruct whatever was on your commercial. You didn't have to have an instrument rating to be a CFI. Getting an instrument rating, or ME rating added to your commercial automatically made you an instructor in that area. That changed in the '70's.

Anyway, this change of '97 has not caught up with the old fossels who still give 'legal opinions' based on past years. Even when we read the current regs, it is easy to 'read into' old hardwired concepts. I do it all the time.

It is only because I read these boards that I have become aware of conceptual changes.

I am just advising the potential problem with the NTSB law judge and/or the insurance carrier if something happens.

The regulation speaks for itself. You are reading into it what you want it to say.

I used to do the same with the term PIC. When I read 61.51 logging PIC time, I was automatically reading PIC as meaning the actual PIC - the person who IS the PIC, and these are the logging rules for that person. It never occured to me that it could be a person not qualified to be the PIC, and yet, here are some rules for logging PIC, when you're not the PIC.

It's a regulatory mess created by our fumbling government.

And you should know that ignorance of the government is no excuse.

I know of this debate as well. But if we treat 14 CFR 61.195 (b) the way you suggest it needs to be treated then CFI-IA without CFI-ASE and/or CFI-AME is more limited than CGI-I (IGI) because you can't do any flight training nor you can't do ground for anything but A.

All I am saying the regulations allow it - would I recommend it, probably not.

 

[AK47]

So can you do this??? After Instrument ASEL Can you get all the ratings and certificates in between Commercial (Like CFI, CFII, MEI....MEI with the exception that you have a Multi-engine rating)

Is this what 141 schools do? Do they get you the Private through MEI then Commercial so you can use them?

read 14 CFR 61.183 (c)

 

[AK47]

Yes you can start with an mei no double i stuff. That's exactly what I did-I don't have a single engine commercial. You can't do instrument training if it is a non-instrument rated pilot, but okay if they are. I don't have a cfii I did train someone for an atp multi no problem from the feds.

More precisely, you can't do instrument training if it is a non-instrument rated pilot or if training is for a type rating not limited to VFR.

 

[flyer172r]

So can you do this??? After Instrument ASEL Can you get all the ratings and certificates in between Commercial (Like CFI, CFII, MEI....MEI with the exception that you have a Multi-engine rating)

Is this what 141 schools do? Do they get you the Private through MEI then Commercial so you can use them?

Gotta have a commercial before you can get any CFI ratings.

 

[VW Pilot]

Gotta have a commercial before you can get any CFI ratings.

Strange...My Instructor told me I could get a CFI After my Instrument...But I couldn't use it until I recieved the commercial Certificate...I'll read up on it.

Oh and as for CFR 65.183 (c) must be in the 2007 AIM....Don't have a current copy yet. looked all over ASA's 2006 AIM and Aviation Week's 2006 AIM..Not there. STILL LOOKIN JUST INCASE....he he he..

 

[AK47]

Strange...My Instructor told me I could get a CFI After my Instrument...But I couldn't use it until I recieved the commercial Certificate...I'll read up on it.

Oh and as for CFR 65.183 (c) must be in the 2007 AIM....Don't have a current copy yet. looked all over ASA's 2006 AIM and Aviation Week's 2006 AIM..Not there. STILL LOOKIN JUST INCASE....he he he..

14 CFR 61.183 (c), page 110 in ASA FAR/AIM 2006