What happened to our "profession"???

[HA25]

I hope this thread gets some exposure here in the quiet union forum.. but I was just debating with a fellow pilot about the whole "raise the bar" concept and it got my wondering.. What happened?

In the past few years...

-Home prices have gone up 3-4 times..
-Gas is 2-3 times as much
-Food is 2 times as much
-Cars cost a lot more..
-Medical care is 3-4 times as much

...everything costs more.. everything!


All the while..

When I went to work for ASA in 1997, when $200,000 bought a very decent house in Atlanta, my first year pay was $15,000.. and by the time I left as an ATR captain with 3 years seniority, it was about $55K.. today that pay is the SAME!

I watched as pilots wages at the "Majors" went from the 180K/200K max range, to $300K (wow, finally!), and now all the way back down to half that..

Now, I am accepting a job at a "decent" and well established ACMI operator that has recently had to negotiate a pay cut to compete with many non-union start ups and pays the "Typical" Captain $100K and the FO's are in the 50's to 60's, again a pay cut and certainly not where the founding pilots of this company thought they'd be today.

Jet Blue, a darling of the industry and many of the members of this board pays half of what Southwest pays.. You have "SkyBus" out our CMH wanting to pay their A320 CP's $65K and Virgin America a whopping $90K to do what Southwest pilots get paid $200K+ for. Southwest, God bless their heart, is paying well, as is Fedex and UPS.. times are good there but how long can they remain competitive and pay these wages?

MaxJet, a 767 international ops upstart is paying $93K/yr for their Captains.. Many "Major" airline pilots are working with little or no retirement, and mid 100's salaries on "heavy's" at the "Legacy's"

Some ACMI operations are paying 747 captains under 90K/yr.. and making them pay for their hiring and training costs (drug tests, hotels, etc.). "Regional" airlines are paying today, what they were paying 6-8 years ago, and yet they're still growing like gang busters and having a hard time getting anyone with over 1000TT to apply..

I've got friends that graduated at SJSU with me back in the mid 90's in civil engineering and business degrees that are making strong 6 figure salaries and they're home every night, and they don't sign their name to a flying bomb worth millions of dollars, where one mistake can kill literally hundreds..

The worse part is that I find myself debating on this forum with pilot after pilot on the merits of unions, ALPA and holding the line... The guys on this board, who we can assume represent the pilot population seem quite content with the current situation.. so long as they can fly a fancy jet, and wear a fancy uniform, at least this is how I can rationalize it.


I don't get it.. can someone explain all this to me?

Is it time to re-visit the idea of a pilots work guild? Some kind of universal pilot wage agreement that if you don't abide by, you are self-black listed? The only way we can arrest this race to the bottom is from with-in.. it's us the pilots that are aiding and abetting in this race!

Don't kid yourself, you're airline may be on top today, but just ask the Delta Pilots who left to go to Eastern in the 70's what that means in the long run?

Happy New Year. May 2007 be the year we turn the corner on this downward spiral..

God Bless..

 

[SSDD]

Competition! The prices that the customer is willing to pay has gone down substancially since the late 60's, early 70's. With deregulation there is a nonending line of start ups. They may not hang around very long, so their costs are always less than the legacies.

Unless some revolutionary event takes place. I think pilots wages have stabilized. This is all there is.

 

[HA25]

RE-REGULATE! RE-REGULATE!

Wait, never gonna happen.

Oh, well.. it's a lost cause.

 

[SSDD]

While we consider ourselves professionals, we are highly unionized. We have to go with the flow, so to speak. We can't set our rates or have a chance to increase our income potential like doctors, lawyers, and other professionals.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You want the simple answer or the complex?

 

[HA25]

You want the simple answer or the complex?

Hit me with it man........ We need to have this conversation!

 

[HA25]

Hit me with it man........ We need to have this conversation!

btw.. from the new ALPA Pres: http://www.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=179

 

[B737Dvr]

I accept said debate!

I hope this thread gets some exposure here in the quiet union forum.. but I was just debating with a fellow pilot about the whole "raise the bar" concept and it got my wondering.. What happened?

In the past few years...

-Home prices have gone up 3-4 times..
-Gas is 2-3 times as much
-Food is 2 times as much
-Cars cost a lot more..
-Medical care is 3-4 times as much

...everything costs more.. everything!
All the while..

I watched as pilots wages at the "Majors" went from the 180K/200K max range, to $300K (wow, finally!), and now all the way back down to half that..

Jet Blue, a darling of the industry and many of the members of this board pays half of what Southwest pays.. You have "SkyBus" out our CMH wanting to pay their A320 CP's $65K and Virgin America a whopping $90K to do what Southwest pilots get paid $200K+ for. Southwest, God bless their heart, is paying well, as is Fedex and UPS.. times are good there but how long can they remain competitive and pay these wages?

I don't get it.. can someone explain all this to me?

V 70t5, I can see that you are passionate about the cause, and somewhere in there i detect some benign origins, but your process (on other threads) of lambasting people for working at companies that you don't know the details of(as they do) while acting as if your company is without fault,....mars and dirtys your efforts.... So allow me to opine on some of the your points as we continue on this process of discovery....

your comment on home prices going up 3-4 times is limited to 2000. If you have any interest in the home sector then you would know that homebuilders are having massive layoffs, stockpiling inventory, their surpluses of homes on the market are increasing so they are having to give certain parts of the store away to keep selling new houses. where were home prices back in the 70's when inflation killed everyone? the housing market is what kept the economy going since 9-11 right up until about Q2 of last year, since then everyone's seeing home prices decline in the major cities. I am fortunate that i bought a house early on and yes it is worth double what i bought it for, but am fully aware and expect that to be slashed some what, as i am aware that housing prices are cyclical and will vary.......simple economics man.....but i wont be looking for anyone to blame on this one, except if someone does another dirty deed a la 9-11 again.


Gas!!!!! great point. Do some research in the stock market buddy. Research some companies Exxon stock symbol (xom), british petroleum (bp), valero energy (vlo), french company total (tot), or oxydental petroleum (oxy)....read their annual reports go through the nitty gritty and youll see that there is one common denominator with all these companies....they havent built any new refineries nor spent any $$$ on going for new ones....aaaaaaand have not found any new oil fields like in the north sea (back in the 90's) except for Lybia now being back in the "club" hess corp and others have now been allowed to resume doing business there again.
bottom line?.......there is no new oil to be found.....and demand has not only been steady but has actually increased big time due to china and india going from primarily agricultural economies to manufacturing economies and that takes alot of resources!!!......supply/demand.....that is why oil is high and going up (this latest lull in prices since the fall is but only a small correction).......real estate?.......last i looked no one is making any new land, so the remaining land is of course going to continue to climb in value!!!

Food?...is going to continue to get more expensive...its a resource that everyone on the planet needs to survive.....no brainer!

cars do cost alot more....expecially dumb ass ones like hummers (i think they are cool, but i would never buy one)....but explain to me why companies like ford and general motors are doing so bad with their truck prices being so high.

Medical care?...again everyone needs a doctor and with all the malpractive suits going on as well as medical practitioner fraud going on...no doctor will want to keep his practice without increasing prices to offset their malpractice insurance premiums.....simple concept of passing on the cost to the consumers.......

guys/gals reading this....some of you think that i have side tracked and am now rambling without aim, but summarize the major points above and youll that certain industries are cylical and at the mercy of economic cycles, as is the airline industry AND.......they are all doing something that the airline industry is not doing.......passing on the cost to the consumer!

there is your answer v70t5!.......unions and the race to the bottom is not the answer, it is something to be addressed, but not the cause nor the answer.

show me any new company in any industry that pays industry leading salary right from the start and we may use them as a case study, until then you will see that this is a work in progress, painfully slow sometimes, but a work in progress nonetheless.

tell me something, if your company is so good, then why did it fail to pass the test as stated in the letter you so graciously linked? didnt the letter state something about being unified to show management how serious ALPA is?
last time i saw, your new concessionary agreement barely passed, and showed management how divided your group is!!! boy o boy i bet those ups and fedex guys are just shaking their heads at you.......explain that!

again, im not saying anything about your company other than what happened, but it does prove that you or your company are not without fault or less than desirable conditions....

pilots racing to the bottom is not the principle fault nor is it the answer to your ills. why doesnt the industry pass on its costs (security, fuel, taxes) to the paying passenger. why does swa offer $59.00 coast to coast tickets when you couldnt get that on greyhound? you explained how salaries today arent what they were yesterday and how yesterdays "founding fathers".....would not have envisioned what salaries are today!!!! you really should work for management buddy, you are so quick to lay blame on the pilot forces (that arent as cool as you)!..... the fact that todays ticket prices are a fraction of what they were yesterday escapes your short-sided mind. why dont you start with balance sheets? answer why arent we passing the costs on to the consumers.....

the answer besides being economic cycles is that the swa, the jetblue and airtans are keeping prices low. specifically swa. i truly believe that they played a "lets bleed the majors to death slowly by keeping prices so upsurdly low that they couldnt possible compete so that we can: 1. increase market share, flood the market with seats(which will be matched, making this worse for prices) 2. hopefully invade previously unattainable fortress hubs to bleed them even more. 3. hopefully bleed them bad enough and hope for a bad economic environment so that they will need to sell off their assets for liquidity (ATA) (UAL)....there is your true and raw race to the bottom V70T5!

the only thing saving our collective asses is that swa's fuel hedges are running out and without increasing THEIR PRICES they WILL start to run losses! WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RAISE TICKET PRICES, WHAT A CONCEPT...
that is why cal, amr, lcc, dal have been profitable these last quarters, because of the 6 or so incremental ticket price increases that have stuck this year so far!! in the previous years, they all tried but when no one matched them they had to lower it again. now that swa is raising them everyone else will as well! now dont get me wrong, swa is a good company, they work force works hard, and they are privelaged and fortunate to have landed employment there, but their success came at the misfortune of other airlines balance sheets!....i mean c'mon!.....how can we justify $59.00 coast to coast tickets!!!! that is an industry problem, you want reregulation? i say re regulate prices and youll stop the bleeding, and then you should find a floor on wages from where no management can go below!......until we stop flying a family of 4 from nyc to la on less than 400 RT or sit some snot nosed college kid in pj's and birkenstocks next to an executive on a full fare in first class, or flood the market with seats when the industry and economy doesnt need that much capacity......when the above crap stops......our unions might have better leverage against managements lowering of the bar, while they keep their retention bonuses and stock options!

isnt that what the new alpa president said in his letter, to try and build solidarity so that they can have better leverage nationwide?

you are certainly not helping him or the cause by your holier than thou attitude. try asking more questions and take interest in they whys and hows, rather than just lay blame and ire at those you perceive to be lesser than thou. panam and eastern pilots who did the same in the 60's and 70's to pilots at delta and united, had to eat crow when they were offered chances to work at those places in the 90's right before the floor fell underneath them!

the old adage applies here whether you make 50K or 300K a year.....be careful who's toes you step on today, because they may be your chief pilot or captain tomorrow!

i welcome dialogue, unbaised and without malice, until then your "points" will go unheard. listen to the ALPA pres.....build solidarity and not fences between the pilot groups at the different airlines........

for anyone wondering what the hell im talking about, please reference the "centurion cargo" thread in the cargo section.

 

[B737Dvr]

i had to cut my previous post because it was too long.

what i wanted to do was to quote V70T5's initial post on this thread in its entirety to reply to it bit by bit, but couldnt because of space constraints....

 

[HA25]

your post is entirely too long for me to answer line by line, we'd loose the viewers anyway.

First off, I wasn't the first one in that thread to call Centurion a crappy outfit.. read what the first response from AN ACTUAL employee stated.

Secondly, the contract that barely passed at GAC was before my time.. had I been there, it may have gone differently.. but to be fair to GAC, they've been beaten down by the flood of new ACMI startups that have come in and underbid most of their routes much of that because their pilots that are doing the brunt of the work are working under inferior pay and work rules.

Thirdly, Fedex and UPS don't rank in the same "Comparibles" as ACMIs.. They're a completely different model, and those companies are not Airlines first.. they're Airlines second. Their market caps are evidence that they're not players in the same game... Fedex alone is worth more money on paper than all the airlines including WN combined.. Gemini is in a different segment in terms of contracts and raising the bar than Fedex.. their segment is ACMI, and even Astar and ABEX, while technically ACMI are not the same business model, they're operating as a wholly owned subsidiary of a Fedex or UPS type entity. Apples to Apples..

Lastly, I know the housing market well.. I made a great living in it for the past 3 years... during this time I few Citation X on contract here and there, but never accepted less than the market $1000/day rate.. I did however make a killing in real estate, which is why I can afford to work for the crap wages airlines are paying now.. but this isn't to say I'm satisfied with those wages, because in the end I have self worth. I know that if thing go well for Gemini (and all I've researched leads me to think it will) that their ALPA will do it's part to raise the bar when Aug 2009 comes.. but considering the circumstances of their last contract, and the companies health.. they did ok if you ask me. They did protect a lot of valuable work rules.. Many of us forget that 1/2 the equation is pay, and 1/2 is work rules. Gemini's ALPA is young, as is the company.. but I think we're part of the solution in terms of trying to raise the bar.. not the problem. The problem is pilots like on the Cargo360 thread found on APC.com that are BRAGGING about their higher productivity and promises of profit sharing, etc.. all at the same time they're paying $300 for drug tests, paying for hotel rooms while in ground schools.. etc..

If you don't get it B737Dvr... then there is nothing more I can say to get you to "Get it" .. My style is up front, and abrasive, and that's just me.. but if you don't like the messenger, then ignore him, and focus on the message.

We all need to get our collective heads our of our collective 3-points of contact! And soft spoken posts on anonymous message boards aren't going to get far in waking up people and getting people involved.

 

[B737Dvr]

It's all good........

The one good thing about this is that people can see different points of view and then choose which way they go. Although I am one to try and see all points of view rather than just jump off the deep end, I can appreciate the end result trying be be conveyed. Unfortunately, V70t5's process does the cause more harm than good, imho. building unity is not done by demeaning people or being heavy handed. 1000 a day for Cit X work is not bad at all, but dont you kind of go back on your "i will not work for less than market's share of my worth and not a penny less" by going to work for Gemini? Must be that you have faith and see something good there beyond the meager wages.

not everyone has your luxury of having something else to rely on or to have done well in the markets. I also have a corportate background 135, and 91 and also did contract work for some nice $$$. but i am smart enough to realize that it will not always be there, so i plan accordingly. i also subscribe to something called being grateful. I have been on both sides of the table at a really ********************ty place and then at a better place and seeing those still at the crappy place. i have several uniforms at home and none of that is a result of lack of union. My career is still alive and i have had quite a ride at times really bumpy and other times smooth (for a while), and i am still quite young and eager to learn more and do more. but i do it with humility and with a sense of gratitude to still continue my career.

now i dont agree with certain things cargo360 does like make you pay for things to be hired, that is stupid, so that is why i wouldnt apply there.

anyways, let's try something different. you seem to have quite the energy to
push your agenda. you really didnt address the issues with why the industry hasnt passed on costs, or the lunacy in $59 fares. how do we remedy this?
God forbid G-4 start going for less than $6500 an hour, just so that we can have b and c listers start flying them. How about you start offering solutions.
what are pilots that are furloughed to do if they follow your advice and turn down employment in a tough environment (8K ALPA on street)? now with those that are at your so called crappy places, what do you suggest as a course of action to build a stronger ALPA? How do we move forward?

we are all ears......ready GO!

 

[HA25]

I'm done with the other thread, but I'll continue to dialogue here..

On the subject of "why Gemini"... simple answer: I see a jewel in the rough. Their pay now, under the worse of conditions is still better (when you factor in the contract provisions) than many operations that I was applying to both cargo and pax 121. More over, I had taken 3 years off from "Full time" flying and the likes of Fedex and UPS weren't in the cards for me as I wasn't "recent" enough for them. Gemini took a risk on me, and I'm doing the same for them.. I'm there with the intent of retiring from there 28 years later (assuming age 65). They'll have to make me leave by either going out of business, furlough, or fire me.

Now.. onto the big question. I'm not one for very long winded explaintions so I'll just say this.

The WALMARTIZATION of America. The best example is when I posted a link to a nice logbook that was hand bound the old fashioned way (the English way) and covered in fine leather which costs $50, I got more posts from pilots bitching at the additional $20 in cost, than appreciating the higher quality of the product.

Same goes to most things now.. Made in China has replaced Made in the USA, Germany, UK, France, etc.. Those countries now are relegated to only the finest products that the rich can afford. The rest of "us" have to live with cheap, disposable, false economy products and services. Banks are replacing tellers with machines, airlines are doing the same with "customer service agents"

Sure, things are getting cheaper for the "consumer" but they're also a shadow of their former self in terms of quality.

Who wins? The corporate entities that no longer call their home country a home.. These are multi-national corporations with no national boundaries and the Godless commie chinese are their new partner in the Walmartization of America.

There in a nutshell is your answer.

And no, my shoes aren't made in China, neither are most things I try to buy.. but sometimes it's impossible to avoid, even for me.

 

[HA25]

so what part of any of this do you not agree with?

http://www.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=391

except the encourage men and woman bs in part 8.. that doesn't need any help!.


And look at this:http://www.avjobs.com/salaries-wages-pay/index.asp

 

[B737Dvr]

my pc is having issues with the dling of duane's comments, perhaps a brief recap?

now about the new hire pay....yeah it does suck man, so what do we do about it all?

i totally agree with the walmartization of america, that is an excellent point my man. unfortunately while the consumers reap benefits, businesses suffer if they arent cheap enough for walmart's likes and then have to sell their wares below cost.

i for one am sitting on the edge of my seat and waiting for the Q4 and year end numbers for swa to see how much closer to the red they are and to see how much more their fuel costs are QoQ as well as YoY. not to turn this into a swa debate, but they are the airline industry's walmart, and well i am all ears to see how they will maintain such high salaries without having to keep raising fares or worse take their turn at the concession negotiations.

all this has big implications for the industry because if swa pilots can keep their pay at their high levels or higher with the current balance sheet projections, then it will be a watershed moment for the rest of the industry's labor to point at them and say, see it can be done!

fortunately while swa keeps raising fares, so will the majors and now that they are much slimmer in terms of capacity, fleets, labor and overall costs, we'll see if the ABC lines will win over the masses over global frequent flier miles, club lounges, airline alliances and all the other perks that the majors offer all for the same if not close prices.

I for one will take CAL's FREE meals at meal time AND non stop, direct flight over swa's ABC lines, multiple legs and their peanuts for similar prices......

 

[HA25]

I for one will take CAL's FREE meals at meal time AND non stop, direct flight over swa's ABC lines, multiple legs and their peanuts for similar prices......

Amen brother...Amen...


Well, time to go join the real world for a while.. spent two days solid on this forum killing time/wasting time. Wife is home from visiting her mom, and I've got a class date in a week..

Take care, and best of luck with all you pursue.

 

[jonjuan]

I think it's interesting how on one hand, you feel that the Walmartization of the airline industry is in part responsible for the depressed pilot salaries. That as costs for everything else goes up, airline ticket prices have remained flat. You want to somehow take the market forces out and in an ideal world begin a labor guild which will force seat prices, revenues, profits, and salaries up. OK, I can see your point.
What I don't understand is how you have made a "killing" in the northern california real estate market over the past few years and somehow think that is simply market forces at work. It's speculators like you who have driven many people out of the real estate market or made home ownership unattainable. Because of this, many lower to middle income life long residents of Northern California will have to leave to be able to afford a place to live.
Yes, I am stretching a a bit, however, I am just trying to understand how on one hand you think there is nothing wrong (I certainly don't) with profiting at the expense of others and helping to fuel the exodus of potential homeowners while on the other hand, believe the current market forces in the airline industry don't make sense and should be artifically controlled because management makes too much and labor makes too little.
These industries are so similar with a small few profiting handsomely. It's quite interesting seeing the dichotomy of your opinion based on your current position, that's all. I am sure your 6 figure friends who are home every night would probably complain in the same manner had they rented the past few years and are now trying to buy a house which has tripled in value.

 

[HA25]

no comparison.. the market place of real estate is not the same as the market place of labor. Two totally different things. More over, I'm not a speculator in that I didn't buy the homes I did to sell them, but more to hold onto as investments.. it was the spike in the market that lead me to sell most of them, and move into a long terms position in commercial real estate. I invested in some good commercial real estate and I make an income from it, while the asset itself increases in value over time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-capitalist.. but on the other hand, I'm not for the freemarket unchecked. There is a balance, and the Catholic church (namely Pope JP II) has written a lot about this.. it's just so un-PC to follow what the church teaches these days.

 

[HA25]

As for Northern CA specifically.. the costs there have not gone up as much as other markets.. I grew up in Norcal and I can tell you it's always been expensive. Pilots earning top pay historically (from the late 70s) would have had a hard time buying in a nice neighborhood on one income.

 

[pilotyip]

This is still a great career, where else can you have an income in the upper 5% of US wage earners and do something you like.

 

[ksu_aviator]

In the past few years...

-Home prices have gone up 3-4 times..
-Gas is 2-3 times as much
-Food is 2 times as much
-Cars cost a lot more..
-Medical care is 3-4 times as much

...everything costs more.. everything!

I can't believe no one addressed the inaccuracies in this. First, home prices are dropping! I bought my home, brand new, for approximately $55 per square foot. Gas has gone up, way up, no argument there. Cars are much cheaper, well trucks any way. I saw a brand new, 2007 Ford F150 for $16,000. A few years ago that would be a $28,000 truck. Medical care is also up, won't argue there.

Over all, inflation was 2.5% (I believe) for 2005-2006. Last forecast I saw for 2006-2007 was 2%. Anyone that is not getting at least a 2% pay increase is, in reality, taking a pay cut.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally on board with the idea of reversing the race to the bottom. However, the only legitimate action that can be taken is to use real information to make a strong argument for real wage increases.