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Tips For Flying in ICE
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FL420
Blues vs. Birds-Tailhook
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2005
- Posts
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How about doing a search on this site. Several of us have posted links to some excellent online training for dealing with winter conditions. I'm often too lazy to do my own research but danged if I'll do someone elses.
Edit:
Sorry about being so snappish. That happens when I read garbage about the Age 60 thing.
These should help:
NASA
http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html
AOPA/ASF
http://www.aopa.org/asf/safety_topics.html#weather
http://www.aopa.org/asf/hotspot/winter_preflight.html
Edit:
Sorry about being so snappish. That happens when I read garbage about the Age 60 thing.
These should help:
NASA
http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html
AOPA/ASF
http://www.aopa.org/asf/safety_topics.html#weather
http://www.aopa.org/asf/hotspot/winter_preflight.html
Last edited:
Usually just a change of a few thousand feet will result in an area without icing. Even if you're still IMC.
Usually the tops of the clouds hold more mositure than the mid or bases. So you'll get more ice up there.
If you have the option of climbing and decending, climb. You can always decend, you can't always climb. (Decend if you KNOW that there is no ice below you, warm temps or clear air).
No matter how light the ice may be, try to get out of it, don't just hang out blowing the boots.
Usually the tops of the clouds hold more mositure than the mid or bases. So you'll get more ice up there.
If you have the option of climbing and decending, climb. You can always decend, you can't always climb. (Decend if you KNOW that there is no ice below you, warm temps or clear air).
No matter how light the ice may be, try to get out of it, don't just hang out blowing the boots.
414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2002
- Posts
- 4,948
If you are pretty iced up coming into land, do not use full flaps. Consider no flaps. You dont want big angle of attack changes when iced up.
Also do not chop the power in the flare when iced up, unless you want to discover how to really plant an airplane.
When you start getting ice, keep a close eye on your airspeed. You will see how you still start losing airspeed and you have to add power. Keep in the back of your head how fast you are getting ice and how long you are from landing
Some freight dogs bring sections of rubbing hosing to beat ice off of the wings.
Also, do not just icing solely by looking at the wings. Realize that the horizon stab is a pretty efficient collector of ice, and once that gets really iced up and stalls, you will wish that was not you in the plane.
Also do not chop the power in the flare when iced up, unless you want to discover how to really plant an airplane.
When you start getting ice, keep a close eye on your airspeed. You will see how you still start losing airspeed and you have to add power. Keep in the back of your head how fast you are getting ice and how long you are from landing
Some freight dogs bring sections of rubbing hosing to beat ice off of the wings.
Also, do not just icing solely by looking at the wings. Realize that the horizon stab is a pretty efficient collector of ice, and once that gets really iced up and stalls, you will wish that was not you in the plane.
Rule #1 Neither you, nor your airplane, were ever meant to fly in ice. When was the last time you saw a bird flying with iced wings?
Rule #2 There are two types of ice protection; anti-ice, and de-ice. Anti-ice is primarily intended to prevent ice...you are primarily intended to prevent ice. Avoid ice, prevent ice. There's a connection. De-ice is designed to remove ice. Often, it cannot. You cannot. There's a connection. Therefore, de-ice is really best handled as anti-ice.
Rule #3 You'll hear rumors that ice bridging is myth. It isn't.
Rule #4 Ice and frost affects your aircraft performance more than you think it will. Act accordingly.
Rule #5 When your airplane is iced, it is no longer your airplane. It is another airplane, and does not necessarily respond to the same airspeeds, control inputs, or expectations that your former, uniced airplane did.
Rule #6 Your anti-icing equipment is subject to failure. Plan accordingly.
This is never a matter of if. It's always a matter of when.
Rule #7 Know your environment. Know what's above you, below you, ahead of you, and just as importantly, what is behind you. Never fail to consider what is behind you, and don't let something be behind you force you into having to accept what lies ahead of you.
Rule #8 On a slick runway, always slow enough on landing that you must add power to taxi clear of the runway.
Rule #9 Anti-skid is not anti-slide. Reverse may not be rearward in nature. If you don't like where you're going when you apply brakes, reverse, or any other control input, then put things back where they were when life was good.
Rule #10 You have the right, the responsibility, and sometimes the obligation to say NO. Respect it.
Rule #2 There are two types of ice protection; anti-ice, and de-ice. Anti-ice is primarily intended to prevent ice...you are primarily intended to prevent ice. Avoid ice, prevent ice. There's a connection. De-ice is designed to remove ice. Often, it cannot. You cannot. There's a connection. Therefore, de-ice is really best handled as anti-ice.
Rule #3 You'll hear rumors that ice bridging is myth. It isn't.
Rule #4 Ice and frost affects your aircraft performance more than you think it will. Act accordingly.
Rule #5 When your airplane is iced, it is no longer your airplane. It is another airplane, and does not necessarily respond to the same airspeeds, control inputs, or expectations that your former, uniced airplane did.
Rule #6 Your anti-icing equipment is subject to failure. Plan accordingly.
This is never a matter of if. It's always a matter of when.
Rule #7 Know your environment. Know what's above you, below you, ahead of you, and just as importantly, what is behind you. Never fail to consider what is behind you, and don't let something be behind you force you into having to accept what lies ahead of you.
Rule #8 On a slick runway, always slow enough on landing that you must add power to taxi clear of the runway.
Rule #9 Anti-skid is not anti-slide. Reverse may not be rearward in nature. If you don't like where you're going when you apply brakes, reverse, or any other control input, then put things back where they were when life was good.
Rule #10 You have the right, the responsibility, and sometimes the obligation to say NO. Respect it.
Jackass79
Member
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2005
- Posts
- 11
Utilize all the information you have at your disposal, pre flight planning etc, ATC/Flight service are very helpful, they know its tough.
# If you are departing into icing conditions ask ATC or any inbound a/c what the tops are, if possible get on top.
# Never depart with any ice/frost on the wings/airframe, You will hear some people say it is ok, IT IS NOT!
#Stay out of freezing rain at all costs!!
#Do not rely on De-Ice equip, boots etc, they do fail.
# If approaching with a load of ice, use a much higher than normal approach speed with little or no flap.
# If approaching into a area of bad icing or freezing rain, request to ATC to be vectored for the localizer a long way out/higher if you are top of the weather, that way you can make a straight in approach.
# Always do a fuel drain to check for water before taking off, a little bit of water in the fuel will freeze, and block the filter or fuel line. The think it was bad before, try it single engine!
# Most important rule for IFR esp when ice is involved, ALWAYS ALWAYS have a plan B!
Enjoy your time, I did. You will learn a lot about the WX and about making true command decisions!
# If you are departing into icing conditions ask ATC or any inbound a/c what the tops are, if possible get on top.
# Never depart with any ice/frost on the wings/airframe, You will hear some people say it is ok, IT IS NOT!
#Stay out of freezing rain at all costs!!
#Do not rely on De-Ice equip, boots etc, they do fail.
# If approaching with a load of ice, use a much higher than normal approach speed with little or no flap.
# If approaching into a area of bad icing or freezing rain, request to ATC to be vectored for the localizer a long way out/higher if you are top of the weather, that way you can make a straight in approach.
# Always do a fuel drain to check for water before taking off, a little bit of water in the fuel will freeze, and block the filter or fuel line. The think it was bad before, try it single engine!
# Most important rule for IFR esp when ice is involved, ALWAYS ALWAYS have a plan B!
Enjoy your time, I did. You will learn a lot about the WX and about making true command decisions!
I flew a 310 during a Wisconsin winter. It did really well in ice, just keep your speed up during landing, it will stall very early if you can't shed all the ice. I should say that the plane I flew had newer boots, they were excellent.
Also, almost everytime I've encountered ice, climbing or decending a couple thousand feet gets you out of it. Just make your decision to change altitudes earlier rather than later to ensure that you still have the performance to climb out of it. The only storms that really concerned me were winter storms in California (those are some thick clouds!)
Also, almost everytime I've encountered ice, climbing or decending a couple thousand feet gets you out of it. Just make your decision to change altitudes earlier rather than later to ensure that you still have the performance to climb out of it. The only storms that really concerned me were winter storms in California (those are some thick clouds!)
time builder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2005
- Posts
- 648
Typically, if you've got boots, you'll want to get out of there before you lose 10 Kts IAS. Bear in mind that if you go higher, you usually get colder, so whatever you accumulate on the way up, you're likely to keep.
Speed will help your boots pop the ice off.
Also know where your plane is not protected, some C208 operators have learned this lesson the hard way and have installed boots on the pod and wingstruts since. Even still those planes have a hard time.
Other areas without ice protection can include your wingtips, landing gear and and your radome.
Speed will help your boots pop the ice off.
Also know where your plane is not protected, some C208 operators have learned this lesson the hard way and have installed boots on the pod and wingstruts since. Even still those planes have a hard time.
Other areas without ice protection can include your wingtips, landing gear and and your radome.
Last edited:
fivefootnuthin
U Cant HANDLE the truth!
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Posts
- 41
something to add ....I'm not sure if type 4 can be used on a 310 or not ...but be very careful, if it can, about using it. Unlike type 1, which is pink in color and applied hot, type 4 is green ..applied cold ...and a very thin layer is ALL thats required. one pass with the hose, thats it. they thick it up ...and I promise you you wont get off the runway because it wont break away as advertized. So watch them when its applied ....
Timeoff,
Are you asking about applying a teflon or other lubricant to the leading edge of an unprotected wing (ie, one with no ice protection such as boots, heat, fluid, etc), or are you talking about applying silicon to the leading edge of a protected wing?
I suspect where you're going with that is finding something to coat the leading edge upon which ice will not stick. Many pilot erroneously believe that by spraying their boots or the leading edge of their wing with an oily substance, the ice won't stick...but it will. Paint it with a teflon or other similiar type paint or coating, and it's still going to stick. Or form, which is a better way of putting it.
Some wings leak fluid out of very small pores; this is the basis of the TKS system. It's effective, until one is of fluid, to a point. Others use methanol for various surfaces from the nose of a jet to propellers. These prevent freezing precipitation from bonding to the surface not so much by producing a slick liquid surface that causes the moisture to slide away, as creating a consistantly melting boundary upon which the freezing precip can find no purchase.
Something like silicon or teflon soloutions in a liquid form merely slough off. In a solid form such asa coating (imagine your frypan, but on the leading edge of the wing), pecipitation will still bond. Something is needed to either break it free mechanically (such as in inflatable boot), or melt/weaken the ice closest to the surface (fluid, heat, etc).
Some pilots believe that by spraying their boots with various substances, they can prevent ice adhesion. This may work with trace icing, but not with moderate or severe icing. Part of the reason is that coatings tend to change propeties in the presence of the cold slipstream, and part of it is that the coating inevitably gets removed to some degree or another by the slipstream. But the main reason that it doesn't work is the very definition of severe icing...icing which can't be removed fast enough by the onboard anti-icing or de-icing equipment...it accumulates faster than it can be removed. This definition is subjective to the individual aircraft and system...what is light to moderate icing for one aircraft may be severe to another.
Coating your wings with pledge or various oils doesn't prevent ice. Goodyear and other companies make boot treatments which are often mistaken for soloutions to prevent icing...they're not. Those soloutions are intended to extend boot life by treating the rubber, and a number of soloutions that pilots might unwittingly apply do just the oppsite...contribute to boot deterioration.
A much better idea is to come to the icing table armed first with the necessary equipment, and a close second with both the knowledge and judgement to properly use it. A number of different innovative ideas have been used over the years from conventional inflatable rubber boots to ultraonic devics intnded to break up and remove ice. Magnetic devices, heated blankets, hot air from various engine sources ("bleed air"), etc, are all in use, or have been tried.
Icing itself is very dependent on temperature, dewpoint, droplet size and condition, airspeed, the shape of the wing, angle of attack, etc. Icing can be very unpredictable. Icing can occur suddently without being forecast, in areas where no icing is being reported, in freezing conditions, in the summer, in the winter, in the mountains and by the sea. The first word is caution and the second is suspicion when dealing with ice. Trace ice can quickly become severe. A few days ago I went from trace to two inches of ice in very short order in very mild convective activity in the desert in a very arid area of the middle east. Who'da thunk it? Yesterday we encountered a lot of supercooled water under freezing conditions, and rapid ice buildup that surprised even some very experienced weather experts observing what occured. If they're surprised, you can bet I couldn't have predicted it.
I'm not nearly so educated on such things...being lowly aviator. My approach is a whole lot more simple. I assume that it can occur under the most unexpected conditions, and as a result, it's seldom surprising...expect it, plan for it, and plan to avoid it where ever you can. Ice is a whole lot easier to handle when you aren't in it, becuse you've planned your way around it, than trying to figure out how to get rid of the stuff. Even with teflon and a barrel of alcohol.
Are you asking about applying a teflon or other lubricant to the leading edge of an unprotected wing (ie, one with no ice protection such as boots, heat, fluid, etc), or are you talking about applying silicon to the leading edge of a protected wing?
I suspect where you're going with that is finding something to coat the leading edge upon which ice will not stick. Many pilot erroneously believe that by spraying their boots or the leading edge of their wing with an oily substance, the ice won't stick...but it will. Paint it with a teflon or other similiar type paint or coating, and it's still going to stick. Or form, which is a better way of putting it.
Some wings leak fluid out of very small pores; this is the basis of the TKS system. It's effective, until one is of fluid, to a point. Others use methanol for various surfaces from the nose of a jet to propellers. These prevent freezing precipitation from bonding to the surface not so much by producing a slick liquid surface that causes the moisture to slide away, as creating a consistantly melting boundary upon which the freezing precip can find no purchase.
Something like silicon or teflon soloutions in a liquid form merely slough off. In a solid form such asa coating (imagine your frypan, but on the leading edge of the wing), pecipitation will still bond. Something is needed to either break it free mechanically (such as in inflatable boot), or melt/weaken the ice closest to the surface (fluid, heat, etc).
Some pilots believe that by spraying their boots with various substances, they can prevent ice adhesion. This may work with trace icing, but not with moderate or severe icing. Part of the reason is that coatings tend to change propeties in the presence of the cold slipstream, and part of it is that the coating inevitably gets removed to some degree or another by the slipstream. But the main reason that it doesn't work is the very definition of severe icing...icing which can't be removed fast enough by the onboard anti-icing or de-icing equipment...it accumulates faster than it can be removed. This definition is subjective to the individual aircraft and system...what is light to moderate icing for one aircraft may be severe to another.
Coating your wings with pledge or various oils doesn't prevent ice. Goodyear and other companies make boot treatments which are often mistaken for soloutions to prevent icing...they're not. Those soloutions are intended to extend boot life by treating the rubber, and a number of soloutions that pilots might unwittingly apply do just the oppsite...contribute to boot deterioration.
A much better idea is to come to the icing table armed first with the necessary equipment, and a close second with both the knowledge and judgement to properly use it. A number of different innovative ideas have been used over the years from conventional inflatable rubber boots to ultraonic devics intnded to break up and remove ice. Magnetic devices, heated blankets, hot air from various engine sources ("bleed air"), etc, are all in use, or have been tried.
Icing itself is very dependent on temperature, dewpoint, droplet size and condition, airspeed, the shape of the wing, angle of attack, etc. Icing can be very unpredictable. Icing can occur suddently without being forecast, in areas where no icing is being reported, in freezing conditions, in the summer, in the winter, in the mountains and by the sea. The first word is caution and the second is suspicion when dealing with ice. Trace ice can quickly become severe. A few days ago I went from trace to two inches of ice in very short order in very mild convective activity in the desert in a very arid area of the middle east. Who'da thunk it? Yesterday we encountered a lot of supercooled water under freezing conditions, and rapid ice buildup that surprised even some very experienced weather experts observing what occured. If they're surprised, you can bet I couldn't have predicted it.
I'm not nearly so educated on such things...being lowly aviator. My approach is a whole lot more simple. I assume that it can occur under the most unexpected conditions, and as a result, it's seldom surprising...expect it, plan for it, and plan to avoid it where ever you can. Ice is a whole lot easier to handle when you aren't in it, becuse you've planned your way around it, than trying to figure out how to get rid of the stuff. Even with teflon and a barrel of alcohol.
Lear Wanna Be
Presidentin' is hard
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2006
- Posts
- 599
All of the advice you have gotten here, with the exception of G-Force's advice, is pretty good. Read it two, three, and four times until you get experience of your own. I have 1000s of hours in a 310 and they do very well in ice. You will here people say that they fall out of the sky on landing with ice on the airframe. As long as you keep the speed up and don't chop the power then you will be fine. If fact, if you want good landings on a clear day, then you won't chop the power anyway. A substantial part of lift is produced just by the prop wash.
Things I would remember:
1) You are the pilot, not ATC. Ask once for an altitude change, if they say stand-by, give them a minute and tell them you need to change altitudes, if still nothing give them a minute and then tell them I need need higher or lower now, which way do you want me to go. They will start turning people or making calls.
2) Don't forget to ask for block altitudes if you find yourself between layers. 7,000 block 9,000 will give you the ability to fish around for something.
3) Don't be shy, ask for pilot reports in your area. Even if ATC doesn't have time, somebody will chime in on the radio if they have info that will help.
4) If ATC says they need you higher than 3,000 (or whatever) for radar coverage and not terrain and that is going to put you in icing conditions, tell them too bad and you will except routing instead of GPS direct. Pretty common theme in NW MN, ND, and SD.
5) Cycle the boots one more time before landing. Anything you can get off will make things safer. A mag lite will help get the rest off when you are on the ground.
6) You will here lots of ice hitting the nose. You will be certain that the nose will have shotgun size holes in it when you land. Don't worry, it is not as bad as you think.
7) If you don't have inboard boots and a hot plate then you are not K-ice and probably shouldn't be out there. If you have alcohol and inboard boots you will be OK as long as the alcohol doesn't run out. Check the tank before each flight when icing can be expected.
8) You can tell how much ice you have on a 310 just by how much IAS you loose. 10 knots and you can probably think about blowing the boots. 20 knots and things not getting any better any you better be thinking about landing.
9) If you are not comfortable going, then don't go. You only get one chance at life and many chances at finding a job.
Things I would remember:
1) You are the pilot, not ATC. Ask once for an altitude change, if they say stand-by, give them a minute and tell them you need to change altitudes, if still nothing give them a minute and then tell them I need need higher or lower now, which way do you want me to go. They will start turning people or making calls.
2) Don't forget to ask for block altitudes if you find yourself between layers. 7,000 block 9,000 will give you the ability to fish around for something.
3) Don't be shy, ask for pilot reports in your area. Even if ATC doesn't have time, somebody will chime in on the radio if they have info that will help.
4) If ATC says they need you higher than 3,000 (or whatever) for radar coverage and not terrain and that is going to put you in icing conditions, tell them too bad and you will except routing instead of GPS direct. Pretty common theme in NW MN, ND, and SD.
5) Cycle the boots one more time before landing. Anything you can get off will make things safer. A mag lite will help get the rest off when you are on the ground.
6) You will here lots of ice hitting the nose. You will be certain that the nose will have shotgun size holes in it when you land. Don't worry, it is not as bad as you think.
7) If you don't have inboard boots and a hot plate then you are not K-ice and probably shouldn't be out there. If you have alcohol and inboard boots you will be OK as long as the alcohol doesn't run out. Check the tank before each flight when icing can be expected.
8) You can tell how much ice you have on a 310 just by how much IAS you loose. 10 knots and you can probably think about blowing the boots. 20 knots and things not getting any better any you better be thinking about landing.
9) If you are not comfortable going, then don't go. You only get one chance at life and many chances at finding a job.
Turn the props on BEFORE you enter ice. We had a guy dent up a 310 we had at our flight school b/c he forgot to turn them on before entering icing. When he did, the chunk, got thrown forward of the reinforced area of the shed.
I've never done this, but my a friend of mine at Airnet said he'd ask for a block altitude and start a decent, and get your KIAS up before you blow the boots. The more airspeed you have, the more ice will come off. He would then climb back up after the ice was off to get ready for the next blow. I just wouldn’t get too slow (below min icing speed) on the climb or you may end up with ice behind the boots, on the underside of the wings.
I've never done this, but my a friend of mine at Airnet said he'd ask for a block altitude and start a decent, and get your KIAS up before you blow the boots. The more airspeed you have, the more ice will come off. He would then climb back up after the ice was off to get ready for the next blow. I just wouldn’t get too slow (below min icing speed) on the climb or you may end up with ice behind the boots, on the underside of the wings.
Alltheway
Active member
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- Aug 3, 2005
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- 44
Big Dog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2003
- Posts
- 165
If you expect bad icing on final, especially a long final and the ceilings permit, shoot the LOC instead of the ILS. Plan a high rate of decent until MDA. Got me out of a freezing rain situation. Tell ATC to keep you as high as they can as long as they can. ATC can usually be pretty helpful in general when they know what is going on.
The C310 is a great airplane and can carry quite a bit of ice, not that you want to.
Even if it's above freezing on the ground I'd exercise the boots during taxi to help get rid of some moisture built up while it sat idle. If not, you may find the boots frozen once climbing into below freezing temperatures.
Also, if you're using an alcohol window I'd suggest turning the fluid off at the FAF so that you can see to land. You can't see through the streaming flow of fluid across the window. Also make sure that fluid hasn't sat for awhile as you know alcohol and water love one another and it'll just freeze on your window, so it needs to be pure alcohol.
Curtis
Montana
Even if it's above freezing on the ground I'd exercise the boots during taxi to help get rid of some moisture built up while it sat idle. If not, you may find the boots frozen once climbing into below freezing temperatures.
Also, if you're using an alcohol window I'd suggest turning the fluid off at the FAF so that you can see to land. You can't see through the streaming flow of fluid across the window. Also make sure that fluid hasn't sat for awhile as you know alcohol and water love one another and it'll just freeze on your window, so it needs to be pure alcohol.
Curtis
Montana
FL420
Blues vs. Birds-Tailhook
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2005
- Posts
- 626
Good advice. If you need the lower ILS minimums, fly it quite fast at a high rate-of-descent to minimize the time your in icing conditions.
If you have a low enough MVA you can ask for vectors to intercept the GS lower than GSIA and get down to MVA quickly if it is below the freezing level or icing conditions.
Last edited:
taters
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2005
- Posts
- 323
Another concept is the difference in ice at different temperatures. Ice that is closer to freezing is much like a sticky snow ball, i.e freezing rain can cause hell to your wings verses fllying through a cloud at -25 SAT were ice is similar to powdery snow, it rarely can adhere to the wing. Always be particularly careful at temps right around freezing, this is where a majority of the most dangerous icing conditions occur.
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