SKywest takes more Union Work

[hoover]

Yes this is a union / non union deal, but what is really putting fuel on the fire is longevity. Longevity affects all of us, and the carriers we work for.

Considering the destruction of longevity and the fact that CVG is likely to go junior, 18 year Comair pilots making over $110K with benefits will be replaced by SkyWest pilots making only 55 to 70% as much (talking round numbers).

Eventually longevity will catch every airline and the destruction of our careers (no matter where you are at) will be the result. The only solution is to organize and establish scope which prevents our replacement.

I agree the problem is longevity, but the solution is not scope. Every airline out there has some sort of scope clause and it hasn't really made much of a difference in the outsourcing. The only way to prevent outsourcing or the shifting of flying is to eliminate the cost advantage that one carrier has over another.

I experienced this at Air Wisconsin. We lost the United contract because Skywest, TSA, etc were able to underbid us. They were able to underbid because every airplane they acquired meant they could hire new employees at the bottom of the pay scale, which had the affect of lowering their average costs. AWAC, having an established fleet and crew cadre, could not do this.

One way to eliminate this advantage is to eliminate longevity based pay scales. Look at the pay rates for regionals. They start in the 55-60 range at year one, and increase to the 90-95 range at the top end. A 1st or 2nd year guy is earning almost half of the 15 or 18 year guy FOR DOING THE EXACT SAME JOB. You don't see that kind of spread in other industries, or even at the majors.These differences add up to a huge cost advantage for regionals that are able to bid on growth.

Eliminate longevity based pay scales, and you eliminate the cost advantage of shifting flying from one airline to another. The downside of this is that it it will not be a short term process to move to this kind of approach, and strong leadership with the vision to see it through will be needed.

 

[Smacktard]

They start in the 55-60 range at year one...

What regional is this?

 

[AMANSWORLD]

Let us look at the real big picture here guys and gals. We have mother Delta who cannot get out of BK and probably will not do so until they are aquired by USAirways, sad but true most likely. DAL has had very poor management for sometime. This in turn has allowed other carriers to become a viable player in this mess. As these companies continue to get the "flying", read lowest bidder, the next guy comes in says we can do it cheaper, well I have to call BS. We, the pilots are the big problem. We continue not to have a backbone or a sense of self respect. For example we have pilots quitting at ASA with 2,3, even 4 to 5 years to go to Skywest. The only thing this shows is they are A.) desperate for an upgrade B.) Low-timers who are afraid of not being gainfully employed elsewhere C.) just plain ignorant.

These could only be the given reasons. The reasons I say this are when it is to the benefit of SKW INC. they will again shift flying or start a new LCC such as other companies who could not get their employees to bite the bullet on a pay cut. I personally do not think some should touch the left seat of any jet a/c for less then $85 K - first year pay. We are working ourselves right out of a respectable paying job and WE are to blame.

On the other hand there are many external factors in this.

1.) Pilot Puppy Mills. You know who you people are.
2.) Foriegn Pilots working at subpar carriers for chump change.
3.) Poor middle management. People looking to make a name for themselves.
4.) Poor choices in our Government Legislation as well as poor choices for whom we choose to make these choices. Read we need representation that says it like it is.
5.) One common union. One voice. One minimum payrate. Anyone or any carrier not participating will not be allowed in the circle of friends so to say.
6.) Management held legally responsible for bad blunders and financial misrepresentation. ALL employees are entitled to their protected retirement, period.


All that being said I am going to close by simply saying we as pilots better get on one page, the same page together and FAST, VERY FAST!!! Otherwise you can kiss your chance of ever having a well paying job in the past.

I also want to say I am not picking on any one group or person we are all the problem and it needs to be fixed. It is very out of control.

 

[Skaff]

Delta awards more flying to Skywest. Skywest is to take 13 airplanes from ASA and now 12 of Comairs. A non-union company taking unionized labor ??

SCAB?--they have opportunity to vote ALPA in we shall see?

I know why on a major board, because you guys need to know what is going on and if your company was to do this how would you feel that ALPA's hands are tied.

Ex. Look at Atlas and Polar...

It has been awarded to Skwest Inc. What if it is given to ASA. Would they be scabs then. All regional flying is owned by mainline, does that make us all scabs?

 

[80for80]

I agree the problem is longevity, but the solution is not scope. Every airline out there has some sort of scope clause and it hasn't really made much of a difference in the outsourcing. The only way to prevent outsourcing or the shifting of flying is to eliminate the cost advantage that one carrier has over another.

I experienced this at Air Wisconsin. We lost the United contract because Skywest, TSA, etc were able to underbid us. They were able to underbid because every airplane they acquired meant they could hire new employees at the bottom of the pay scale, which had the affect of lowering their average costs. AWAC, having an established fleet and crew cadre, could not do this.

One way to eliminate this advantage is to eliminate longevity based pay scales. Look at the pay rates for regionals. They start in the 55-60 range at year one, and increase to the 90-95 range at the top end. A 1st or 2nd year guy is earning almost half of the 15 or 18 year guy FOR DOING THE EXACT SAME JOB. You don't see that kind of spread in other industries, or even at the majors.These differences add up to a huge cost advantage for regionals that are able to bid on growth.

Eliminate longevity based pay scales, and you eliminate the cost advantage of shifting flying from one airline to another. The downside of this is that it it will not be a short term process to move to this kind of approach, and strong leadership with the vision to see it through will be needed.

The problem is with regionals that have captains that have been there 15 or 18 years. Why haven't they gone to the majors? They are trying to make a career out of a non-career job.

 

[shroomwell]

Amanworld,

Regarding point #5, I made a simliar post with this. I think you have to take away the carrot on the end of the stick. The problem is that many of these guys are able to get their Jet PIC and move onto a better job. If you take that motivation away people won't be willing to work for these companies just for the quick upgrade. If they are not in the "circle of friends" sorry no better job for you.

First ALPA needs to gets its own house in order, then implement a strategy like this, it wouldn't take long for the non union companies pilots to have a change of heart and get a better contract and join the union. Given time all carriers would have much more similar costs, especially with regard to pilots.

However, as you can imagine there were many of those non union types who could not understand this.

 

[AMANSWORLD]

Amanworld,

Regarding point #5, I made a simliar post with this. I think you have to take away the carrot on the end of the stick. The problem is that many of these guys are able to get their Jet PIC and move onto a better job. If you take that motivation away people won't be willing to work for these companies just for the quick upgrade. If they are not in the "circle of friends" sorry no better job for you.

First ALPA needs to gets its own house in order, then implement a strategy like this, it wouldn't take long for the non union companies pilots to have a change of heart and get a better contract and join the union. Given time all carriers would have much more similar costs, especially with regard to pilots.

However, as you can imagine there were many of those non union types who could not understand this.

I could not agree more with you. I am personally at the point in my life with aviation that I could leave and never look back or I could hopefully stay in it and help make a change.
Change is a very hard thing for people in general, especially pilots.

 

[hoover]

The problem is with regionals that have captains that have been there 15 or 18 years. Why haven't they gone to the majors? They are trying to make a career out of a non-career job.

That's a poor attitude. One should not go into a job with their eyes on the door. You should approach it like it will be the last job you ever have.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a career at a regional. At my last airline I went from bottom of seniority list to top 20% in about 7 years. I had whatever schedule I wanted and made pretty good money. If I wanted OT it was mine to take, and if I didn't want it, some junior guy got stuck with it. Besides, there are not enough jobs at the majors for everyone to get hired, even if they all wanted to move on.

 

[Tarzan]

That's a poor attitude. One should not go into a job with their eyes on the door. You should approach it like it will be the last job you ever have.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a career at a regional. At my last airline I went from bottom of seniority list to top 20% in about 7 years. I had whatever schedule I wanted and made pretty good money. If I wanted OT it was mine to take, and if I didn't want it, some junior guy got stuck with it. Besides, there are not enough jobs at the majors for everyone to get hired, even if they all wanted to move on.

He's a total flame baiting punk but I'll have to agree one this point. Whether you like it or not, the regional model was not designed with 20 year guys in mind. The original intent was provide cheap feed where the turnover was high. High turnover equals cheap labor which helps overall cost.

So far the job approach, sure but you should always be looking down the road for more. Planning two steps ahead of where you are now. Do I plan on being a regional pilot for twenty? No way, even it means stepping off the flight deck. Number one reason I'm thirty three and working on a business degree. I refuse to put all my eggs in one basket and I refuse to approach this regional job as if it will be my last one.

 

[goodpilotithink]

The problem is with regionals that have captains that have been there 15 or 18 years. Why haven't they gone to the majors? They are trying to make a career out of a non-career job.

That is just about the dumbest thing I have ever read any where.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The problem is with regionals that have captains that have been there 15 or 18 years. Why haven't they gone to the majors? They are trying to make a career out of a non-career job.

Majors outsourced the "career" jobs of flying 50 to 99 seat jets across this country.

Further, with some "regional" Captains making over 100K a year flying an RJ doing quasi international flying while being home most every night it is hard to argue that this isn't a decent career choice. Nothing replaces having 2,000 pilots below you on a seniority list.

I'm trying to move on, but I certainly don't feel I have anything up on those who choose to stay.

The problem is that our union refuses to conceede that RJ pilots are pilots with careers worth protecting and an integral part of a profession worth promoting.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Schmuck, a Yiddish word, has a range of meaning depending on context. In its most innocuous use, a schmuck is a person who does a stupid thing, in which case “dumb schmuck” is the appropriate expression.

Wouldn't "dumb schmuck" be redundant? I'm guessing F'n would be worse.

Thanks, you beat me to it.

Maybe? F'n is the way to not get banned. And I would say it's worse.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Well, I'm just curious:

If all the union carriers were to take SKYW flying...would you guys and gals still be miffed about taking flying from others' or would you be celebrating the unity of the organized labor? Interesting way of looking at it, though the mindset confuses me: are you standing on principle or just lamenting loosing flying, regardless of who takes it? If the latter, then union/non-union shouldn't matter; if the latter, then I suppose it OK for one union airline to take the flying from another union airline. Either way, the logic escapes me here...

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

I don't think our 18-year guys are making 55-70% of a Comair guy at the same longevity. While there is some validity the pay scale differential (if not the other compensation not mentioned), it's not nearly the gap to which you speak.

 

[duck_killer]

Look delta guys fly the 76 and the 75 for the same rate. Are they scabs? We are trying for better pay but so are ASA and everybody else. Wait didn't mesaba just take a pay cut?

 

[embdrvr]

I don't think our 18-year guys are making 55-70% of a Comair guy at the same longevity. While there is some validity the pay scale differential (if not the other compensation not mentioned), it's not nearly the gap to which you speak.

113 versus 93 per hour. It will be more like 98 per hour if the pay deal is approved. Not sure what kind of bonuses, duty rigs, and other factors to consider are at Comair. The senior SKYW guy will see about 5% in bonuses. If he does the 423 plan he'll probably net a few grand on that before taxes.

Realistically the SKYW guy is making more like 90-95% of what the Comair guy is making. Depending on CMR's it might even be a wash.