ASA hats

[Rez O. Lewshun]

“…Today? So yesterday or yester-year was different? How? How is it "before" we needed to "look respectable" but today we don't? Do we no longer need or want respect?”

If you’re going to quote me at least use it in the proper context. “Today” was clearly in reference to the previous sentence in my post which mentioned that hats are: “…an old remnant of most airlines’ military beginnings (at the time most pilots came from the military).” And since that is not the case today (except FedEx! ) I don’t see why we need them. Maybe it wasn’t so clear after all, but nevertheless that’s what I meant.

I realize you don't think you need them but Dave Webb FedEx MEC chair told his pilots to wear hats when they demonstrated to management and the public. Now they have THE BEST CONTRACT.

”…Attitude and demeanor? And yet there is another thread asking why passengers are rude to pilots?...”

Correct, there is also a follow up thread asking “Why are the pilots rude to the passengers?” Did you miss that thread or do read only the posts that might aid you in your rhetoric?

I took that thread as ajoke like the SWA pilots leaving thread...

The thread you mentioned by the way proves my point. It IS your attitude and your demeanor that will earn you respect. The way you treat your passengers, they way you keep them informed when there are problems or delays, the way you help them find the correct gate (even if they travel on your competition), the way you push a wheel chair if you see that no one else is there to help and the passenger’s flight leaves in 5 minutes (even though that’s really NOT your job), etc, etc., WILL EARN you true respect, and not some phony “hat respect.”

How about your attitude towards your uniform? Man, I have already addressed this pages ago. Try doing your job without your pilot shirt on. Atitude is one part, presentation is another. Go to your next job interview without the proper attire and try and get by on behavior and attitude...

In other words I believe your actions mean more than what you are wearing. You are a big ALPA proponent so maybe I’ll use this analogy. For example, when I see the sharpest looking GoJet pilot wearing a brand spanking new hat I don’t feel compelled to feel respect for the individual knowing that his or her uniform was not “earned” but rather “taken” from his or her brothers and sisters at TSA. I will not be rude to the individual but I have no respect for him/her either.

Why don't you just use a true scab. If you want to pull extreme examples to argue the general debate that is your choice. But I don't see the effectiveness of it..

“…Perhaps passengers see a uniformed airport employee and assume "this pilot" is a TSA agent, porter or wheelchair usher…”

SO WHAT?! I mean, if they do what am I supposed to say? Do I say

“EXCUSE ME I am an A I R L I N E P I L O T, how dare you assume that I’m a porter, or worst yet a WHEELCHAIR USHER?! SHAME ON YOU!”

That would be that pilots choice.

Please read what I said about earning respect – I’ve pushed many wheel chairs and each time I pretended it was my grand mother or my grand father I was helping out. Amazing how easy it is to be slightly unconventional when you’re helping “your own.”

Nice...

”…Or do you want to treated like you know the difference between a gel and turkey sandwhich? If you don't then perhaps we shouldn't look like one who does...”

No, I just want to be treated like a good guy, someone who’s enjoyable to work with; but not because I have a pretty hat but because I’ve earned it.

What does pretty have to do with it...? It is obvious you don't like the hat, but it is not about you...rather us.... What is next..? the company says shoulder boards are optional? How much dumbing down of the image are we going to accept? Look like TSA agents..get paid like TSA agents.

If you can show that using the hat, like SWA commercials and the FedEx MEC is counter productive and cost money then I am all for it. But if you don't like the hat cause you don't like it... then just admit it is about you...

 

[AV80R]

"What does pretty have to do with it...? It is obvious you don't like the hat, but it is not about you...rather us.... What is next..? the company says shoulder boards are optional? How much dumbing down of the image are we going to accept? Look like TSA agents..get paid like TSA agents. If you can show that using the hat, like SWA commercials and the FedEx MEC is counter productive and cost money then I am all for it. But if you don't like the hat cause you don't like it... then just admit it is about you..."

Wow, you really got me on all my points didn’t you? Look, I never said it’s about me, if you go back and read my first reply to you, I did state that since my company requires a hat, I do wear it. I am just stating that given a choice I would not wear the hat, period.

Somehow, I get the perception you have some aggression build up toward the TSA agents? I don’t care for them that much either but they don’t bother me as much as they seem to bother you.

As far as “dumbing down the image," well maybe you got it all wrong? First of all, I want true and “earned” respect not a mere hat-mirage image of it. Second of all, you say this is not about me but about us. Well, have you thought that maybe many of us do not agree with you, and if so, is it all about you???

Maybe we feel the hats are dumbing us down? It wasn’t that long ago the Supreme Court Justices wore hair-wigs (I think I’m correct on this one?); why aren’t they doing so anymore? Did they lose respect of the people when they got rid of the hair wigs? Didn’t think so.

If not being recognized as a captain scares you so much, I suggest a large “CAPTAIN” tattoo on your forehead, no one will ever mistake you for a TSA agent, or worst yet a wheel chair usher. This is a joke btw, before you get all upset.

- Didn’t even notice your replies in red within the quote itself.

“I realize you don't think you need them but Dave Webb FedEx MEC chair told his pilots to wear hats when they demonstrated to management and the public. Now they have THE BEST CONTRACT.”

Now I know they got a great contract BECAUSE of their hats! Wow! I’m sure the fact UPS and IPA had reached agreement just weeks prior to FedEx’s breakthrough had nothing to do with it? Hell, now we know how to turn this industry around, every pilot should start wearing a hat everywhere he or she goes. I mean everywhere, even at home. Gotta get some respect from your wife don’t you? Also, I bet you if she sees you in the hat, she’ll even cook a nice dinner for ya. I mean, you’ll look so respectable and so “pay-raise ready.”

You know, many of your post are very interesting and many make at least some kind of sense to me. This one did not.

 

[Sig]

How is it "before" we needed to "look respectable" but today we don't?

Beebe should say, "We have drafted a resolution with management of mainline to enforce hat uniform standards, yet we in fact know that mainline style hats won't be available to regional pilots. In order to establish compliance with the new mainline Chapeau Directive, we'll simply lie and say that all regional pilots must wear a facsimile of mainline hats, to be paid for by the company, yet we know they won't be deliviered nor will they even resemble mainline hats ."

What tha fark ever, Rez. I don't subscribe to the iPod nor frosted spike paradigm you squirt on daily, but I do fly the danged plane. When flying the plane professionally leaks back into mainstream public's concerns and outpaces their entitlement to the cheapest and fastest means to point B, I'll wear a danged tutu if that separates me from the chaff.

Wearing a frilly dress doesn't a pilot make, now does it? How many heroic acts of airmanship have been attributed to "Thank GOD he had his hat on, lest more lives were lost?" How many mundane acts of flying the line hang on headgear? How many pilot's careers have been screwed up, whether they wear the hat or not?

Captain Kirk didn't wear a hat, and apparently the world you inhabit is just as real as he. Set phasers for "Who gives a shyt."

 

[AV80R]

“I'll wear a danged tutu if that separates me from the chaff.”

Great post!

 

[Sig]

It cracked me up! Thanks!

 

[ASADFW7]

I guess this is a bad time to try to sell my old hats?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"What does pretty have to do with it...? It is obvious you don't like the hat, but it is not about you...rather us.... What is next..? the company says shoulder boards are optional? How much dumbing down of the image are we going to accept? Look like TSA agents..get paid like TSA agents. If you can show that using the hat, like SWA commercials and the FedEx MEC is counter productive and cost money then I am all for it. But if you don't like the hat cause you don't like it... then just admit it is about you..."

Wow, you really got me on all my points didn’t you? Look, I never said it’s about me, if you go back and read my first reply to you, I did state that since my company requires a hat, I do wear it. I am just stating that given a choice I would not wear the hat, period.

Why would you not wear it?

Somehow, I get the perception you have some aggression build up toward the TSA agents? I don’t care for them that much either but they don’t bother me as much as they seem to bother you.

Just like many, I suspect, I get tired of being treated as suspect by employees who gossip and blab as I go thru. But I am polite and go thru and go on my way...

As far as “dumbing down the image," well maybe you got it all wrong? First of all, I want true and “earned” respect not a mere hat-mirage image of it. Second of all, you say this is not about me but about us. Well, have you thought that maybe many of us do not agree with you, and if so, is it all about you???

Two points: how can true and eanred repsect come from not wearing a hat. Here is an extreme example. The tomb of the unknown soldier. The guard spends hours getting his uniform ready. Part of the repsect that he offers to the tomb is his presentation. Including the hat.

It has nothing to do with agreeing with me. If someone, anyone can show that the hat is counter productive to our collective professional image then I won't wear the hat. I am simply applying logic: SWA usues the hat to sell tickets. FedEx MEC uses the hat to get THE BEST CONTRACT. With those examples, if that is good enough, then why not eveyday?

Maybe we feel the hats are dumbing us down? It wasn’t that long ago the Supreme Court Justices wore hair-wigs (I think I’m correct on this one?); why aren’t they doing so anymore? Did they lose respect of the people when they got rid of the hair wigs? Didn’t think so.

A wig? You are really stretching here....

But I will counter that. Pay a pilot $300/hr and have a requirement for a Jack Sparrow three point pirate hat and pilots will prance thru the terminal with a dandy feather.. all while saying "look at me! I make $300/hr!!"

The point... too many pilots put their pride and self respect in conditionals. Such has pay rates, type of equipment, etc...

So we have been taking paycuts big time, and pilots feel demoralized. They just want to go to work unnoticed.

If not being recognized as a captain scares you so much, I suggest a large “CAPTAIN” tattoo on your forehead, no one will ever mistake you for a TSA agent, or worst yet a wheel chair usher. This is a joke btw, before you get all upset.

This is not about me. Rather us.

- Didn’t even notice your replies in red within the quote itself.

“I realize you don't think you need them but Dave Webb FedEx MEC chair told his pilots to wear hats when they demonstrated to management and the public. Now they have THE BEST CONTRACT.”

Now I know they got a great contract BECAUSE of their hats! Wow! I’m sure the fact UPS and IPA had reached agreement just weeks prior to FedEx’s breakthrough had nothing to do with it? Hell, now we know how to turn this industry around, every pilot should start wearing a hat everywhere he or she goes. I mean everywhere, even at home. Gotta get some respect from your wife don’t you? Also, I bet you if she sees you in the hat, she’ll even cook a nice dinner for ya. I mean, you’ll look so respectable and so “pay-raise ready.”

Not sure if you realize, but the UPS contract is a company contract, while the FedEx contract is a pilot contract. Check out the vote statistics. Your response above is not an arguement. I acknowledge you as the only one who has responded specifically to it, but your reply is simply cynical. It doesn't convince that the hat is counter productive. Recall, when Dave Webb was asked during the pattern bargaining conference how they did it, he could have said alot of things.. he choose to say "We got our hats".

You know, many of your post are very interesting and many make at least some kind of sense to me. This one did not.

Not sure why? All I am saying is SWA thinks the hat sells the image and tickets. FX MEC too. Interestingly, FedEx and SWA are the least known for hats.

These are not my ideas. I am simply pointing out what others have done to sell the image of Air Line Pilots to the public. That image in turn instills a belief or perception. That perception is related to our paycheck...


Does anyone have a worthy arguement against hat?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Beebe should say, "We have drafted a resolution with management of mainline to enforce hat uniform standards, yet we in fact know that mainline style hats won't be available to regional pilots. In order to establish compliance with the new mainline Chapeau Directive, we'll simply lie and say that all regional pilots must wear a facsimile of mainline hats, to be paid for by the company, yet we know they won't be deliviered nor will they even resemble mainline hats ."

You like Bebee, huh..

What tha fark ever, Rez. I don't subscribe to the iPod nor frosted spike paradigm you squirt on daily, but I do fly the danged plane. When flying the plane professionally leaks back into mainstream public's concerns and outpaces their entitlement to the cheapest and fastest means to point B, I'll wear a danged tutu if that separates me from the chaff.

My point made so eloquantly by you. IOW you will only move when someone else moves first....

Wearing a frilly dress doesn't a pilot make, now does it? How many heroic acts of airmanship have been attributed to "Thank GOD he had his hat on, lest more lives were lost?" How many mundane acts of flying the line hang on headgear? How many pilot's careers have been screwed up, whether they wear the hat or not?

My logic is that the advertising firm that SWA uses thinks that pilot hats sell tickets. The FX MEC used hats to get THE BEST CONTRACT. If these two groups used the hat and got results who am I to argue with success.

Captain Kirk didn't wear a hat, and apparently the world you inhabit is just as real as he. Set phasers for "Who gives a shyt."

SWA and FX MEC did give a shyt. There is a point there. They do and you don't. They have a success.....


Ask a FedEx pilot who wore his hat to the demonstration when he gets his next paycheck with the new rates if he would wear his hat again?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

“I'll wear a danged tutu if that separates me from the chaff.”

Great post!

And my point.....

Pay a pilot $300/hr and have a requirement for a Jack Sparrow three point pirate hat and pilots will prance thru the terminal with a dandy feather.. all while saying "look at me! I make $300/hr!!" I am seperated from the chaff!!

The point... too many pilots put their pride and self respect in conditionals. Such has pay rates, type of equipment, etc...

So we have been taking paycuts big time, and pilots feel demoralized. They just want to go to work unnoticed.

 

[scott hall]

Why are you people still arguing this? If you don't want to wear the hat then don't. If you want to look like Barney the purple dinosaur then wear the hat. Its really that simple.

 

[ASARJMan]

Why are you people still arguing this? If you don't want to wear the hat then don't. If you want to look like Barney the purple dinosaur then wear the hat. Its really that simple.

Hey Scotty, can we ditch the tie too?

VOTED IN FAVOR!
WWW.NOPILOTLEFTBEHIND.COM

 

[HelloNewman]

I can't believe this thread is still going. I would rather wear a dress shirt, slacks, dress jacket, tie, polished black shoes to work. It is more professional and less dorky looking. Lets face it the hat and bars on our shoulders make us look like we are ready to swing from the ceiling on a rope and drop off into a boat to set sail looking for the next treasure chest.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I can't believe this thread is still going. I would rather wear a dress shirt, slacks, dress jacket, tie, polished black shoes to work. It is more professional and less dorky looking. Lets face it the hat and bars on our shoulders make us look like we are ready to swing from the ceiling on a rope and drop off into a boat to set sail looking for the next treasure chest.

Sounds like you are ready for a corporate gig....

 

[COOPERVANE]

Rez o lewshun, I agree with you 100% but he will NEVER get it. Stop wasting your time. It's inconvenient, therefore he will dig out 1001 reasons why he shouldn't wear it. Period.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree with your avatar too!

 

[FR8mastr]

Rez, while I hate the hat in the summer, I must agree with you on all your points. I spoke with the FED EX chairman last week at the US Air picketing event, and he and another FED EX pilot stated the same thing about the hat. They bought them for just such occasions. They also wore them for the Airways event. I can tell you first hand that the the pilots at the picketing event did look sharp, it would have not been the same without the hat.
I think I picked up on something reading this whole thread, most of the guys who hate the hat say they do because they feel they look like a dork or something similar. I felt the same way at first as I had never worn a hat before. I never thought anyone else looked stupid, after all it is what pilots wear, it was just me. Maybe many of the guys wanting no hat are thinking something like that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Fr8master,

Thanks for the reply...

Here is my first post on this thread, post #4.

Whenever pilots complain about the hat it is always argued from a personal perspective.. it looks dorky, it's uncomfortable, etc.... But what does the public think.... (watch the replies to this thread... there will be no pragmaitc arguement: pilots will agrue personal reasons and try to speak for the public, managment etc.. But there will no effective professional arguement against the hat...)

...

This isn't my opinion. I've simply surveyed the landscape and reported what I've seen. The hat sells the pilot image. The leather doesn't negatively impact the image.

My personal opinion doesn't matter. What matters is how the public and Wall Street perceive our image.

 

[Palomino]

Rez, while I hate the hat in the summer, I must agree with you on all your points. I spoke with the FED EX chairman last week at the US Air picketing event, and he and another FED EX pilot stated the same thing about the hat. They bought them for just such occasions. They also wore them for the Airways event. I can tell you first hand that the the pilots at the picketing event did look sharp, it would have not been the same without the hat.
I think I picked up on something reading this whole thread, most of the guys who hate the hat say they do because they feel they look like a dork or something similar. I felt the same way at first as I had never worn a hat before. I never thought anyone else looked stupid, after all it is what pilots wear, it was just me. Maybe many of the guys wanting no hat are thinking something like that.

ok...so let's follow the lead of FedEx and SWA, etc. to appease Rez. i'll wear mine in a picket line. otherwise it should be optional. the hat is stupid. if that's what it takes to convince shareholders to pay up then we have really lost our muscle.

ALPA must begin to 'think beyond the hat'. i have hope for the Prater regime. he seems to get it.

 

[Flybynite]

Public opinion? I am using what FedEx MEC Chair DW said (We got out pilots hats and we got a the best contract) as my basis for public opinion.

If this is true why did it take so long for FEDEX pilots to get a contract? Under your reasoning day after first info picketing a contract should have been signed. Didn't happen. Try another reason.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ok...so let's follow the lead of FedEx and SWA, etc. to appease Rez. i'll wear mine in a picket line. otherwise it should be optional. the hat is stupid. if that's what it takes to convince shareholders to pay up then we have really lost our muscle.

Why is the hat stupid?

Appease me? Why? It has nothing to do with me. I have simply taken the reading and reported the value on the instrument. Is it me or the facts? If I tell you it is raining outside why get made at me? Why get mad at the rain? It is what it is....

Do you guys read the thread to engage in the debate or do you just keep stating your original thoughts?



ALPA must begin to 'think beyond the hat'. i have hope for the Prater regime. he seems to get it.

Beyond the hat? OK? Like how?

Prater? What do you hope in Prater?


I am wondering you guys really understanding how this career works. Sure you want the pay and work rules but when the HOW is explain to you, it's like trying to get a teenager to do his homework....