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Mesaba TA

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Another point that hasn't been mentioned is that profit sharing doesn't kick in until >4% I believe. Fuzzy math can keep the profits low in order to keep from paying out. Another question for the road shows is whether the MEC is still appealing the injunction ruling in case you all vote this down. That kind of precedence needs to be taken down.

For those of you that want to compare pay rates. If I can remember correctly, the ALPA National web page has all the info you need if you dig around for it.

Fraternally
Soardtk
former ACA/IDE pilot
 
Another point that hasn't been mentioned is that profit sharing doesn't kick in until >4% I believe. Fuzzy math can keep the profits low in order to keep from paying out. Another question for the road shows is whether the MEC is still appealing the injunction ruling in case you all vote this down. That kind of precedence needs to be taken down.

For those of you that want to compare pay rates. If I can remember correctly, the ALPA National web page has all the info you need if you dig around for it.

Fraternally
Soardtk
former ACA/IDE pilot
it doesn't matter, even if they make more profit, the numbers are low enough that if they have to pay out they make more profit. The only time this is not the case is at 5%.
 
OK, just a few points:

In the TA, we have full recover to current book in 4 years (that is, where current book will BE in 4 years, not where current book is today: IOW: we regain all of the COL increases, also), if we get 36 aircraft. Now, if it less than 36 aircraft, we end up something like .125% under current book per aircraft under 36. It is NOT all or nothing. We recover at a percentage per additional aircraft. Yes, I was afraid they'd give us 35 and then no regains. No one trusts the SLT. That's why the TA does the best possible to account for dirty tricks.

Secondly, once we enter section 6, we get raises of 1.5% per year in negotiations, so that whatever we end up getting will be on top of the 1.5% per year as they drag it out.

Finally, the 14.2 million claim. This comes in to play during XJ's exit from bankruptcy. Yes, it would come into play in liquidation, too, but it will have a better payout in BK exiting. Ask the lawyers about it on the next phone conference. It is in MAIR's interest to at least try to pay out something of a percentage to the creditors in reorganization, and the pilot list ain't that long.

Yeah, I know, gimme more kool-aid, blah blah blah. However, our negotiators worked their butts off, and this could have been a lot worse than it is. It gives us a real shot at FULL recovery, or at least something close to it. Also, as a parting thought: As far as the BK laws go: Management won. The whole system is in their favor. Their is nothing we can do about that. Even if we STFD, the SLT all have solid gold, BK-and-liquidation-proof parachutes. It's practically the first thing they did after entering BK. To a certain degree, this TA severly limits what SLT won from us. And, just as every one was shouting about a few days ago, there are even a few modest enhancements, such as to the call in honest policy, furlough recalls (which, under the TA, are fantastic), profit sharing (which we gave nothing for, 'cause it's probably fairly worthless, but you never know), ongoing protections to our beleaguered health care plan.

Yes, we all fricken know that it was all a sham bankruptcy from day one. Wake up guys, we lost that battle, just like the Vikings always lose when it comes down to it. There is nothing anyone can do to go back into time to fix that. Sorry, sucks.

Yeah, DOH and DOH+1 really suck. They take us down toward the bottom, but it won't be any lower than the other bottom feeders (yes, for a year or two, we will also be bottom feeders: THAT SUCKS). Then we climb back up to solid industry average. And, also, yes the FO's get SCREWED by that bloody "blended rate" (although it does help us, big time, in the all-SAAB fleet). That sure as hell won't change in BK.

And remember: WE ARE IN FRIGGIN BANKRUPTCY! We LOST that battle. We can appeal 'til we're blue in the face, and all that will do is drag out endless 1113(c) filings. Under those conditions, even if the TA fails, our negotiators, lawyers, and MEC did a pretty respectable job.

I mean, really guys, 25% of the concessions come from the multi-class bids, which by the way, under the TA will retroactively pay protect the captains.
 
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I would vote no until you have some confirmation that:
1. Mair has invested its own "Mesaba Dollars" back into Mesaba
2. There is some contractual agreement showing NWA is investing in mesaba at that current TA rate.
Otherwise you have no idea that this TA is just for the saab and they won't again ask for more for the 900 in a whipsaw vs. Pinnacle.

Bingo! We had a contract and they somehow found a way to F*(E us out of that, what's to say these SOB's won't find some other way to screw us.
 
In retrospect, I believe they will soon realize they threw out a much needed staff. There just aren't any pilot out there willing to go to Mesaba, when they can fly for another carrier that has a better contract and has jets for new hires.
 
I try as hard as I can to stay out of other people's business. I recognize that if you're not IN the situation, you can't understand the position of those that are.

That said. Do you really think that you can trust these bastards to do anything they say? With their history?

It's like Charlie Brown and the football.
 
No offense guys but this TA sounds like the ol' bait and switch to me. It'll get ratified, things seem to settle for about a year and then BANG!! out comes the ace up their sleeve. Remember the warm fuzzy about %60 of the guys had after contract 04'? History repeats itself guys and gals........
 
The thing is I do not trust this so called SLT. Oh if we get more then 79 aircraft then this will happen, low and behold we only get 30 CRJ's. Oh if we make a profit greater then 5% you get some money in profit sharing, bang guess what we always somehow only make a 4% profit. I want to thank MSA Alpa and the NC, but in the end I just DO NOT TRUST Spanjers and his group.

That's my problem with all of this. There are too many "IFs" and "MAYBEs". Too many people are acting like all these clauses (new planes, profits, etc.) will happen. I'd expect none of these to happen and look at my new paycheck from that perspective.
 
Unfortunately I think Knox might be right. Pass by maybe 56%. People on this board are already talking themselves into voting yes. Sham bankruptcy = Sham concessions. Just remember, your concessions will fund Jinglepant's bonus. Don't think for a second that this isn't the way its going to go. Someone else said it...

History will repeat itself, especially if we don't learn from it.
 
Unfortunately I think Knox might be right. Pass by maybe 56%. People on this board are already talking themselves into voting yes. Sham bankruptcy = Sham concessions. Just remember, your concessions will fund Jinglepant's bonus. Don't think for a second that this isn't the way its going to go. Someone else said it...

History will repeat itself, especially if we don't learn from it.

Oh yeah, he'll get a HUGE bonus for "saving" this company from the specter of bankruptcy :mad:
 
I just returned from the roadshow and it truly was informational. I suggest everyone please make it to at least one. I'm not telling you which way to vote but the MEC did do a good job presenting the TA. Plus the sandwich spread was pretty good. Good dessert. Bribing me with free food. Such a sucker.
 
Anyone that made it to a road show know what the improvments there were to the call in honest policy?
not that is a big part of any of this but man the commute has been rough lately.
 
Don't believe the SLT will take a big bonus for their excellent work and guidance throughout the bankruptcy process? Just wait and see.

Just ask the Northwest Flight Attendants in the 90's when management insisted on big paycuts to survive. They turned around within a few months of the concessions and pocketed big money for their "leadership" skills. It will happen again.
 
We all know management is making out like the bandits they are in this whole process. No one debates that. What action can the pilots take to prevent managements greed? Don't forget managements' liquidation-proof golden parachutes...It'd be pretty sweet getting that big annual check for life, and not even have to go to work!
 
Just left the roadshow. It was very imformative, even though it left me very skeptical that the "good stuff" in the deal will ever pay out. This SLT always finds a way to change couse and avoid paying out(ie. the two 4% pay raises we should receive in the next two years.)

At the end I talked with several pilots and I didn't hear one of them say they were willing to vote YES on this screw job, lots of anger though.

I guess it is back to the table or court. This deal is going down in flames if the rest of the pilot group feels the same way we did.
 
...but the MEC did do a good job presenting the TA...

So I see their skills did not fade from 2004 when they convinced the group to vote yes on that contract.

There is NO reason you should be taking cuts. I voted no in 04 so I'm glad I'm not still at XJ to get burned again when this thing passes.
 
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I too, voted no in 2004 on the "growth contract". I too, am glad that I left before XJ managed to further stall my career progression. 8 years to be a junior regional FO paid industry bottom wages is not my idea of a good use of my time.

Too bad this TA will pass. The pilots will again pull a John Kerry and show their true colors. Management again will then show the pilots that no contract will be honored by them.

It is a sick cycle.
 
I predict the TA passes with 72% of the vote.
 
Another tragedy.

It sounds like if they could provide a few more meals, than more would fall like one of the posters above.

Free meal or pay/working conditions you're entitled to.

For the Pinnicle boyz.......................

You're next.

One word........................

WHIPSAW.

W-H-I-P-S-A-W.
 
i agree with all that the nc did the best they could with what they had to work with (which wasn't much) and deserve all the credit in the world for not walking away but i too do not trust this slt. it's been almost a year since furloughed from xj and i have moved on to another carrier but there isn't a day that i don't wish i was back flyin' the saab with all the great people i worked with and chief pilots that knew all of us by name but i'll be d@mn if i'd vote for this ta (if i could vote that is). up until my last trip people were telling me this is all smoke and mirrors and i'll be back in 3-4 months....well obviously it wasn't. how bout we (all of you that can) show the great managment team that we are not smoke and mirrors either! we ALL deserved to get paid and paid well for what we do. they are not taking 5% of our responsibility away with this ta so why should they expect us to relieve them of 5% of theirs?
 
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Well....I think we have it. Everyone that used to work at Mesaba will be voteing no.
 
Another tragedy.

It sounds like if they could provide a few more meals, than more would fall like one of the posters above.

Free meal or pay/working conditions you're entitled to.

For the Pinnicle boyz.......................

You're next.

One word........................

WHIPSAW.

W-H-I-P-S-A-W.

BK first?
 
Well....I think we have it. Everyone that used to work at Mesaba will be voteing no.

And there it is.

Everyone that used to work there would not work for an imposed/imposed concessionary contract. Those that are still there.......why are they still there? A myriad of reasons, but, the TA passes so those that are there can still remain there.
 
.........At the end I talked with several pilots and I didn't hear one of them say they were willing to vote YES on this screw job, lots of anger though.

And I have spoken with hundreds of NWA pilots over the past six months and not a single one of them voted yes.
 
And I have spoken with hundreds of NWA pilots over the past six months and not a single one of them voted yes.


I bet you this thing passes with a vote near 100%, maybe in the 90% range. Think about all that the mesaba faithful have been through in the last year, I bet you a lot of them just want to move on.
 
I doubt this will pass with too much margin. I attended a road show and saw as well as heard the responces to the TA. Tough choice.
 

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