Age 60 informal poll

[Klako]

You seriously want there to be no age rule in place at all?

YES, That worked just fine before 1960.

If it is appropriate, Increase the medical standards for ALL pilots.

 

[Cyclone]

Klako

I agree with you in theory. Now, how do we have a screen that works in practice, where we actually screen the 50,000+ professional US pilots every six months, or every year to make sure they are still fit. We know that none of them want to hang it up. They are like my mother-in-law with macular degeneration driving her car. She can drive fine...just ask her...no worries. Yikes...

 

[Klako]

Changing the rule will not make the skies less safe. I've spent 8+ years on furlough, plus many more very junior so I understand where the opposition to the change is coming from. The two things that make it a perfect storm for change is the failed pensions plus the ICAO change. The age 65 limit is still bogus, the one pilot under age 60 is also bogus, but that is what has been proposed and I expect that is what we will have. The idea that this change will push all the junior people back five years is also bogus. Some will only go a few months past age 60, some a few year, and some to age 65 or older if that number is eliminated. I do believe at some future date the world will go the way of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand with no upper limit.

I would hope that everyone would have the luck in this industry that I have had. I can also say that there were many times that I thought I was having no luck at all, but in hind sight I know I was wrong. I enjoy my job, enjoy going to work. If I thought I was slipping I would quit tomorrow.

Thank You for being honest, my hat is off to you.
I wish you the very best!

 

[General Lee]

I continue to see an AME who has the reputation for being the most strict Class I examiner in town. He will not compromise the current FAA standards.

I can honestly say that I have been continiously active in fighting to change the age 60 rule since I was 18 years old. In 1965, I remember helping my then next door neighbor, who was then a Western Airlines Captain and a Western ALPA Executive Council member. I helped him stuff envelopes for a campaign to repeal the age 60 rule then and I have been at it ever since.

The Airline Pilots Association (ALPA) at first fought hard to repeal the age 60 rule. Click here to see: The Chronology of the "Age 60 Rule"
http://www.ppf.org/chrono.htm

In 1968 this was ALPA’s official stance on the Age 60 Rule:

“ALPA CONTINUES OPPOSITION TO AGE 60 RETIREMENT RULE . The Air Line Pilots Association strongly advocates that the Federal Air Regulation in its arbitrary age 60 retirement provision is unreasonably discriminating against all of the air line pilots. Shortening a pilots career with no realistic justification is cheating the public as well as the industry. ALPA has expended and continues to expend its utmost efforts in attempting to overcome this highly dissatisfying and unfair federal regulation.”

Sadly, ALPA turned traitor to it’s senior members after supporting a change in the rule for over twenty years. ALPA has now institutionalized age discrimination as an accelerated job advancement scheme for its junior pilots. One would have to beg answers these questions:
When did younger pilots became more valuable than experienced pilots?
Why would ALPA, a labor union, actively support a rule that discriminates against its own members, forces them to leave their workplaces and leave them with reduced benefits?

I recall this WAL captain often saying, “ this age 60 rule will be a thing of the past long before you reach age 60”. I cannot believe that it is still here over 40 years later.

I am glad that you go to a good AME that tests you for everything. Good, but I would say 90% do not. That is the problem. And, ALPA may have tried to change the rule in the past, but with better medical tests and the understanding that jets and time zones can create havok on a body, a rule like the age 60 rule is probably settling on the safe side. How about policemen and firemen? They have to go at 55. Could some of them go later? Probably. Do you want a 65 year old fireman carrying your family members down a burning stairwell? I bring that up a lot, primarily because it is true. We all want experience when it comes down to it, but not at the expense of safety. We have an age 60 rule, and police and firemen have an age 55 rule. The Supreme Court ruled against some Southwest pilots for that exact reason. Are they wrong?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

It appears that the problem you describe is not the result of aging but that of a sick airline and sick union.

Klako,

Nice try, but the period of time was during the 80's and 90's when the airline (and union) was doing quite well (except during the gulf war). You're comparing apples and oranges.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

I continue to see an AME who has the reputation for being the most strict Class I examiner in town. He will not compromise the current FAA standards.

I can honestly say that I have been continiously active in fighting to change the age 60 rule since I was 18 years old.

Klako,

I honestly have to say you're a piece of work and full of crap!! What BS!!

AA767AV8TOR

 

[3BCat]

if this passes and you are over 60...let's just say the trips won't be treats. happy halloween old timers. you are going to be the persona non grata of the industry.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

 

[BVT94]

Most important, I truely love my job and I am dang good at it.

I chose to work at my present airline job in 1989 over flying for a major airline for two reasons. First, is my desire to live in my hometown and not have to commute. Second, I chose my airline company because at that time, it was a very a stable Part 135 carrier and I was counting on flying until retiring at age 65. Then in 1995 the FAA forced us to convert to Part 121, thus destroying my plans of flying to 65. I was promoted to Captain through expansion not attrition.

I fly for the best regional airline in the world. What made us the best is the work ethic of our employees.

DO NOT FORCE YOUR DIRTY APA/ALPA UNION POLITICS OF AGE DISCRIMINATION ON ME.

I thought this was a MAJORS thread.....

 

[Flopgut]

It appears that the problem you describe is not the result of aging but that of a sick airline and sick union.
It is becoming clear that as a result of recent actions by the ALPA and APA, the so-called legacy carriers like United, American, Northwest and Delta are condemned to the death throws of extinction. Greed, ineptness and blindness to reality will also destroy the likes of the ALPA and APA. The old guard pioneers of the golden age of aviation should be raging mad in their graves at the miss deeds of today’s big union politics.

I'm waiting for Undaunted to again adorn Klako with "best post ever" status again. Is that going to be a long wait?

 

[bubbers44]

I thought this was a MAJORS thread.....

KLAKO had a statement to make and soon guys in his position will be still flying.

 

[General Lee]

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

Nah, he may be right. We had a bunch of guys leave only to come back after they got their retirement (they were NOT age 60 yet) because we didn't have the manning and would have had to park some of our fleet (mostly check airmen etc). They weren't greeted with open arms. And, we all know what the old guys look like--they will be the ones walking with canes and always asking "was that for us?" But hey, I will treat them great (?), just don't expect everyone to.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[walden]

"death throws"? Is that like the Grim Reaper taking the mound for the Yankees? Speaking of the Reaper, I hear he's coming for some here on the board very soon.

 

[FoxHunter]

Foxhunter,

Why would ICAO recommend NOT having 2 over age 60 pilots in the same 2 man cockpit at the same time? Any reason? You seem to avoid that question. Also, can you see the expansion in Europe with the LCCs? Could that be a reason for a change? A pilot shortage over there? Do we have one here?

Bye Bye--General Lee

The ICAO report gives you the answer you don't seek!:beer:

Moreover, there is still today, as stated by AsMA, insufficient medical evidence to support any restrictions based on age alone. In the JAA countries, the upper age limit of 60 has been maintained for pilots in single-crew operations, but since 1 July 1999, the JAA regulations have allowed airline pilots to continue flying until age 65 with limitation to multi-crew operations and with the proviso that no other member of the flight crew is older than 59. However, the Secretariat is aware that this proviso was not based on medical grounds but rather the result of a compromise between the different parties. Although recommended by IATA, the Secretariat does not consider this proviso safety relevant for the following reason: For the individual pilot engaged in multi-crew operations, it is today generally accepted that a medical incapacitation risk of one percent per annum (“The 1% Rule”) is fully compatible with the desired flight safety level for airline operations. This risk level corresponds to one medical incapacitation per 100 years or approximately one million hours. Male pilots from Scandinavia, United Kingdom and NorthAmerica are lilely to approach this risk level when they are around 65, female pilots three to four years later. The risk of two older pilots becoming medically incapacitated at the same time, during the same one-hour flight, is thus one per trillion hours (1 trillion [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]— [/FONT]1012 or one million [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]x [/FONT]one million), a risk so low that it can safely he disregarded.

 

[Freight Dog]

That's all great Fox. Ask your FO on your next trip whether he wants you in that seat for another 5 years - be it for safety or be it for financial reason.

Time for retirement buddy. Go hit a few golf balls, get into some fishing tournaments. You've had a good successful career. Time to hang it up and pass the torch.

 

[General Lee]

The ICAO report gives you the answer you don't seek!:beer:

Moreover, there is still today, as stated by AsMA, insufficient medical evidence to support any restrictions based on age alone. In the JAA countries, the upper age limit of 60 has been maintained for pilots in single-crew operations, but since 1 July 1999, the JAA regulations have allowed airline pilots to continue flying until age 65 with limitation to multi-crew operations and with the proviso that no other member of the flight crew is older than 59. However, the Secretariat is aware that this proviso was not based on medical grounds but rather the result of a compromise between the different parties. Although recommended by IATA, the Secretariat does not consider this proviso safety relevant for the following reason: For the individual pilot engaged in multi-crew operations, it is today generally accepted that a medical incapacitation risk of one percent per annum (“The 1% Rule”) is fully compatible with the desired flight safety level for airline operations. This risk level corresponds to one medical incapacitation per 100 years or approximately one million hours. Male pilots from Scandinavia, United Kingdom and NorthAmerica are lilely to approach this risk level when they are around 65, female pilots three to four years later. The risk of two older pilots becoming medically incapacitated at the same time, during the same one-hour flight, is thus one per trillion hours (1 trillion [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]— [/FONT]1012 or one million [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]x [/FONT]one million), a risk so low that it can safely he disregarded.

The "Secretariat" doesn't really know what goes on in America, do they? They have no clue about medicals done here, and they also don't know the culture and the fact that you didn't say anything to your captains before they retired 10 years ago. Why didn't you stand up and declare "Hey Cappy, don't go, you still got it!" ? Why not? You probably knew the same thing we know about guys like you, you all are losing your senses slowly, there is no way to test for that, and it is time for you to exit and play golf. Also, pilots in other countries really don't constitute what our pilots here are like. We seem to have more overweight pilots, and our pilots sometimes work more. Isn't there a 900 hour limit in England per year? Other countries probably have similar rules. Would you like to follow that rule too? I guess you are a follower.....follow the donkey.... Time to go to Sarasota and retire.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[j41driver]

Now days I really don't think that pilots will be able to save enough money to retire unless they work to age 65. Just work the numbers. It's really simple to see that it can not be done at todays pay rates unless your spouse works and makes more money that you do. Age 65 is a must.

What does "today's" 777 Captain at UAL make?

 

[FoxHunter]

The "Secretariat" doesn't really know what goes on in America, do they? They have no clue about medicals done here, and they also don't know the culture and the fact that you didn't say anything to your captains before they retired 10 years ago. Why didn't you stand up and declare "Hey Cappy, don't go, you still got it!" ? Why not? You probably knew the same thing we know about guys like you, you all are losing your senses slowly, there is no way to test for that, and it is time for you to exit and play golf. Also, pilots in other countries really don't constitute what our pilots here are like. We seem to have more overweight pilots, and our pilots sometimes work more. Isn't there a 900 hour limit in England per year? Other countries probably have similar rules. Would you like to follow that rule too? I guess you are a follower.....follow the donkey.... Time to go to Sarasota and retire.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, most European, Asian pilots smoke a lot more, drink a lot more, and a lot more don't exercise.

From ICAO Report;

Some of the data comes from the USA.On the contrary, studies conducted in Japan (1990) and United States (1993) both gave indication that pilots’ retirement age could safely be increased by several years, and a very recent study of 165 commuter aircraft accidents in the United States between 1983 and 1997 points to no notable differences between the age groups except that the percentage of crashes involving pilot error decreased somewhat with age, being lowest for pilots between 58 and 63.


Looks like the American pilots between age 58 and 63 have the best record. The results in Japan were the same. All this decline with age you keep harping on occurs in most at age 80 not age 60. :beer:

 

[zonker]

Klako

Age is the issue.

Do we want to allow pilots ANY age flying airplanes? I agree with you in theory that there should be a screen that assesses a pilot's ablility to do the job, to have the physical and cognitive skills to do the job. That would be great, in theory. How do we implement this in practice.

I am not concerned about incapacitation as much as I am mental errors associated with age. It will happen to all of us unless we die first.

We have to chose something to use as a screen. The current rule relies on age 60 to keep us safe.

If you want to propose something other than age...tell me please...I am all ears. The practical side of being able to enforce this is more difficult.

We need some way to prevent guys who are too old to do the job from doing the job. We need an effective screen. Age 60 isn't perfect. The ICAO proposal is worse. It has all of the bad that the Age 60 rule is (it is still arbitrary) and it is more discriminatory (because it places the burden of safety on the younger, less compensated crewmember). That isn't fair and it isn't safe.

You guys won't even acknowledge that your skills diminish with age. That is ludicrous.

The ICAO is forcing a younger pilot to be there with an older pilot. That in and of itself is an extraordinarly compelling statement. That is a compelling argument that after all it is all about age.

:beer:

 

[Andy]

What does "today's" 777 Captain at UAL make?

$182/hr plus 15% into the B/C fund = $199/hr in wages.

 

[Andy]

You seriously want there to be no age rule in place at all?

YES, That worked just fine before 1960.

If it is appropriate, Increase the medical standards for ALL pilots.

From the Federal Register:
http://www.age60rule.com/docs/1959_nprm.pdf

In 1947 pilots over age 60 = 0
In 1962 pilots over age 60 estimated to be >80
By 1967 pilots over age 60 estimated to be ~250