Age 60 informal poll

[Sluggo_63]

Is there a member who if they were in my situation would just want to throw everything they have worked for out the window and quit just because they are age 60? I don't think so.

I think there are many. You must admit that the folks calling for change are a minority. I know that SWAPA is endorsing change, along with JetBlue and a few MECs, but overall I think that individuals wanting to work until they're 65 are relatively few (they're at least the minority). Tens (maybe even hundreds) of pilots retire every day with nary a peep. They relish the thought of taxiing under the water, hanging up their uniform, and getting to relax with their wife and children. They want to take the RV across the country or go get $100 hamburgers in their Archer. I fly with them, and they can't wait until the day when they can be lazy. God bless them... they've earned it.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Yeah, and most of your furloughed peers are firmly entrenched at CAL, WN, JBLU, FDX, NJA, FX, CS, and UPS with NO plans to come back. In fact, most are closer to upgrade than they are from their original furlough date. Talk about exaggeration. Apparently, you are implying that all your buds will have been furloughed 8 years when it's all said and done, however, where they are now is as good or better compared to the options furloughees had in the 70s and 80s. LOL.

I wouldn't say "firmly entrenched." Yes, some of us are fortunate enough to have been hired at on good companies. I was hired on early at FedEx for a furloughee (one of the first classes that furloughees were hired into), and that was only a little more than a year ago. CAL just started hiring again, and same with UPS and their furloughee policy. So after 4 plus years being furloughed, I was hired at a stable company. I'm not going. I know plenty who are waiting. They are flying RJs in a flowback agreement, or flying charter. Or checks. Or checking people out at Home Depot.

So to answer your point. Some have great jobs, and not going back, but saying "most" is a stretch, and you know it. LOL.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I think there are many. You must admit that the folks calling for change are a minority. I know that SWAPA is endorsing change, along with JetBlue and a few MECs, but overall I think that individuals wanting to work until they're 65 are relatively few (they're at least the minority). Tens (maybe even hundreds) of pilots retire every day with nary a peep. They relish the thought of taxiing under the water, hanging up their uniform, and getting to relax with their wife and children. They want to take the RV across the country or go get $100 hamburgers in their Archer. I fly with them, and they can't wait until the day when they can be lazy. God bless them... they've earned it.

There were always a few who, even with the big pensions, wanted to work. I thought that should be their right. But my personal feeling was, as was the feeling of most others in that same situation: If they (the pilot group through the contract) want to pay me that big pension to retire, then OK I’ll retire and that will be fine.

At that time I really didn't realize how selfish this was to the small airlines with only a 401k type of retirement plan. My actions of going along with the age 60-rule and not fighting it was OK only because I didn't understand the situation for the pilots at the smaller airlines where they had no pension as I did. Of course, this is how the AA guys feel now. They just don't understand the situation that they may find themselves in very soon.

But now, with the loss of the pensions and most everyone in the 401k boat, it's a totally different situation where you never know if you have enough money to retire. And unfortunately, most pilots do not think they have it.

So I believe you are very wrong about those others who are age 59 wanting to retire now and happy about it. (Maybe they was true 2-years ago) By even the ALPA survey it showed that 85% of the age 58- 59 pilots wanted to change the age 60 rule. And I would guess that that number by now (2-years after the survey) is that 95% want to change the age 60 rule. The other 5% are still in denial of their situation.

Many younger pilots think that a 60-year old guy wants to travel around the country on passes or in an RV with his wife and go fishing, play golf or become a FI junkie all day. I may have thought that too when I was 35, but just for your information, that is totally wrong. We want to continue doing all the things we have always done. People do not change when they are age 60 unless they become sick. President Bush is age 60 and does he seem to want to sit around and relax? No way.

People age 60 want to continue with their lives just as you do. Now in some cases if a person has some horrible double commute to work to fly for a Regional job, then maybe they would want to retire (quit) if they even think they may have the money to establish themselves in their local area. But such a situation is understandable in that case. And I’m sure these people are happy to live where they want, doing something in the local area even if it’s not flying.

So if you will, please understand, we are not being selfish, we just need to work because we should have a right to provide for our families and our future retirements, when we can really afford to do that.



.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I wouldn't say "firmly entrenched."
So to answer your point. Some have great jobs, and not going back, but saying "most" is a stretch, and you know it. LOL.

It is my understanding that 50% have passed up on the recall at UAL. That certainly says they like where they are. And I would guess that you will definitely not come back to UAL. The future of the big bucks is FE and UPS. No F/A's but that may be better except no ladies at the Captain's layover parties.

Sluggo: Congratulations on your new job, but please be more understanding of our situation. You have your future set now, so why shouldn't we all have a chance to earn a living too, just like you and Andy.
.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Tens (maybe even hundreds) of pilots retire every day with nary a peep. They relish the thought of taxiing under the water, hanging up their uniform, and getting to relax with their wife and children. They want to take the RV across the country or go get $100 hamburgers in their Archer. I fly with them, and they can't wait until the day when they can be lazy. God bless them... they've earned it.

I wish to comment further on this quote by Sluggo.

The fact is that there are about 10 pilots reaching age-60 and “retiring” each day, about half of those are with the Regionals. Now add it up, how many of the Regional guys can possibly have enough cash on hand to retire at anything like the standard of living they were when they were working. It is almost impossible. Most of the Regional pilots that I talk to say they can hardly make enough money to live much less save for retirement. And please consider the likelihood of a divorce or two along the way to divide the 401k money once or twice. And this is also true for the guys with the majors. Unfortunately in our society divorce is all too common and for pilots because of many factors, the divorce rate is about twice the rate of the general public.

Now it is true that when there are delays and cancellations pilots do complain and say how glad they will be to retire and go fishing. Well let me tell you that that is all just talk at the time. And when the reality of the situation really hits, the water cannons are not welcome. Most all of those guys want to work and they definitely can not afford an Archer to fly to get the $100 hamburgers any more. Of course there are always exceptions to this but don't be mislead by the constant complainers who say they can not wait for retirement. Complaining is just something that we all do for some reason. Whether you're an F/O or a senior captain, everyone complains.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

That hired at 35 number was just an example. I'm a furloughed United guy. I've had the last 5+ years off. Also, first house/first wife. Hopefully it'll stay that way (okay, I have plans to buy another house. I'm trying to keep the wife, though)
I'm not too good with the math. Can you work out how much I'd have in the bank if I had UndauntedFlyers career. Hired at United at 22, so that's 38 years there. The last 18 as a captain (I think that's pretty conservative). So let's use an average salary of $75,000 for the first 20 years and $200,000 for the last 18 (average). What does that come out to... approximately.

Sluggo_63,

Another area these guys don't want to touch is how badly this profession has degraded over the years. A UPS friend of mine whose father flew at Continental in the 70’s said his Dad was making $120,000 in 1976. That translates into $427,000 in 2006.

Both Captain and F/O pay rates at the legacies have been decimated by pay cuts, bankruptcy, and inflation. Heck, a long distance truck with an 8th grade education is practically making what an F/O makes.

An increase to age 65 will be particularly devastating to those in the 35-50 age bracket who are stuck in the right seat an additional five years. Yes, you will make more at the end, but what difference does that make if you lost your home, wife, and can’t put your kids through college in your 30’s, 40’s, and early 50’s. What about the pilots stuck out in the street an additional five years at zero pay, how do you think that will work out for them??

At American the pay differentials between CA and FO are in the range of 30% -50%. See how that will impact your retirement funds especially with compounding interest.

Count on a movement at both ALPA and APA to put those who want to retire at age 65 behind all those who were hired under the AGE 60 RULE. It’s the only fair way. That way no one reaps an underserved windfall at the expense of those junior. It will also protect against any reinstatement of those now in the 60 - 65 bracket that will be doing a class action lawsuit to get back on the property.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Andy]

Andy, I'm still waiting for an answer as to how much money you have given to ALPA and the ALPA-PAC.

Cool! We're gonna play 'answer my question, dammit!' OK, I'll bite. But please note ALL of the questions below that I've asked you that you haven't answered. Please return the favor and answer them.
First, you want to know total money that I've given to ALPA and ALPA-PAC. I was on probation until 1 Oct 2001, so I did not make any payments during my probationary year. Between 1 Oct 01 and 2 Mar 02 (my furlough date), I'd estimate that I paid ALPA ~$1000. I didn't donate to ALPA-PAC during my probation year; I was eating into savings during that time period and did not have discretionary income. I did not give to ALPA-PAC post-911 because it was obvious that I was going to lose my job and I needed to save every spare nickel that I could. I haven't given to ALPA-PAC during my furlough because I'm not an active ALPA member.

I find it rather interesting that you care so much about ALPA, considering that in post #466, you said:

So now the age 60 rule is being maintained (by ALPA/APA) for nothing but promotions, and at APA for "retirement" pay for no work and for promotions. This is really nothing more than typical union featherbedding, no different than ALPA’s 3rd man on the 737 from 1968 - 1978 and the "fireman" on a diesel locomotive.

And how about a thank you for the large amount of money my senority group voted to give to the furloughees like you for the much needed health insurance for you and your family. Many of your group have said thank you for the help. I have seen the thank you notes posted on the ALPA board, I but all I hear from you is "quit now old man so I can get promoted."
Do you have any comment on this?

Yeah, let’s talk about the “large amount of money my senority group voted to give to the furloughees.” IIRC, the max that any furloughee could receive is around $3K and those on property paid ~$30/mo for approximately 35 months … around $1050. I’m sure that you’ll correct me if I’m wrong on those figures.
The furlough fund was initiated very slowly; IIRC it wasn’t until after the Mar 03 furloughs. Now, let’s see what those on property also did for us furloughees. 1) Waived my rights under the no furlough clause. (horsetraded it to benefit those still on property) 2) Got rid of longevity pay for furloughees. . (horsetraded it to benefit those still on property) 3) Negotiated new work rules in C2003 where pilots on property would work an additional 15-20% block hours, effectively adding another couple of years to my furlough. This was done to reduce the paycut for those on property 4) Negotiated PBS in C2003, allowing the company to reduce pilot manning by ~5%, effectively adding another 6 mos to my furlough.
Gee, thanks a whole lot, Undaunted Flyer. I really appreciate all that you have done for us furloughees, but please, don’t do any more for us.

OK, now it’s my turn to play, ‘answer my question, dammit.’

Captain, you were #11 on the 2005 seniority list and you are #9 on the 2006 seniority list. You have been a 777 Captain for how long? Likely before your paycut under C2003 that brought you down to earning ~$180K/yr. What were you earning after C2K, $275K/yr? Where'd it all go?

Can you explain how you've been able to squander away such a huge salary?

You’ve answered that you’ve been a 777 captain since 1999. How about answering the other questions?

How many airlines have you seen go under during your career? Did you not learn from ALL of those ex-Easterners on United property who lost their entire pensions? (I flew with a lot of them; I heeded their advice to not live beyond a flight engineer's salary). Did you think that there was no possibility of meeting the same fate?

Why is 60 discriminatory, yet 65 is not discriminatory? Or do you advocate flying until you die?

Captain, please tell me two things:

1) Where did all of your money go? You've been earning a 6 figure salary for a LONG time.
2) Why didn't you spearhead this effort to change the retirement age 20 years ago? Why did you wait until you were 59?

ZOIKS! What are figuring for an annual cash burn rate? $500K to $1 mil for five years??

Care to state publicly the amount of stock and bond money that you received? Ballpark from what I've read is that it's north of $500K.

If this is truly a 'cause' that you be fighting for, is it safe to assume that you will continue to champion this effort after January 28, or will you join the rest of the 59ers who have recently 'seen the light,' only to disappear once there is no personal benefit to them?

Have you noticed that everyone voicing a strong opinion on extending the retirement age is over 55?

 

[filejw]

This is what you all are yapping about.

Age limit for flight crew
Amendment 167 to Annex 1
The ICAO Council adopted on 10 March 2006 an amendment to Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing that increases by five years the upper age limit for commercial pilots operating two-pilot aircraft. The new provisions become applicable on 23 November 2006 and read as follows:
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday.
Practical effects
Article 33 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (signed in Chicago, it is often quoted as the "Chicago Convention") limits the international recognition of flight crew licences to those who are in full compliance with the Standards of Annex 1 (note that paragraph 2.1.10.1 is a Standard). As a result, until 23 November 2006, even if an individual State authorizes a pilot-in-command (PIC) to fly in commercial air transport operations when over the age of 60 (65 from 23 November) that authorization can only be given for flights within that State's national airspace. This is because no State can force another State to accept its own deviation from an ICAO Standard. Article 33 does not apply to the co-pilot as paragraph 2.1.10.2 is a Recommendation, not a Standard.
Articles 39 and 40 of the Convention are also relevant to the age limit of pilots-in-command engaged in commercial air transport operations as they authorize international flights by flight crew who do not meet all international licensing Standards, provided that an authorization is given by each State into which the aircraft is operated.
In practice, this means that if a pilot in command is under the age specified in paragraph 2.1.10.1 (60 years at present and 65 from November 2006) he cannot be prevented by reason of age from operating into any ICAO Contracting State. Further, once he has reached the specified age, he may still operate as PIC, subject to certain conditions:
his/her national Licensing Authority permits it; and,
operations are undertaken only in national airspace; unless,
another State has given specific authorization that such flights are permitted in its airspace.
A State may wish to impose a lower maximum age limit than that specified by ICAO in 2.1.10.1. It may do this for the licenses it issues, but, as stated above, it cannot prevent an aircraft operated by a PIC holding a licence from another State, who is below the ICAO upper limit, from operating in its airspace.
For co-pilots, since paragraph 2.1.10.2 is a Recommendation, not a Standard, the upper age limit is set by the national Licensing Authority which can choose to impose any national age limit on the licenses it issues, as there are no international restrictions based on age for co-pilots.
When over 60, a six-monthly medical examination will be necessary (ICAO specifies an annual medical for those under 60 years who are engaged in two-pilot operations). For single-pilot commercial air transport operations, the upper age limit remains at 60 years.
Most of the States that have authorized their pilots to fly as pilot-in-command in commercial air transport operations after they reach the age specified in 2.1.10.1 also authorize pilots holding a license issued or validated by another States to fly in their own airspace under the same condition. However, ICAO does not collect information on States authorizing pilots to fly in their airspace after reaching the age of 60 and cannot provide information on the subject. Pilots seeking such information are advised to contact individual Civil Aviation Authorities.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

To Andy:

At least Sluggo had the common courtesy to sincerely thank me for the 3 plus years of assessments that I and the other ALPA members all paid so as to provide you, your family and you colleagues with health insurance.

So it seems like the amount you paid voluntarily to the ALPA PAC was ZERO. The only amount you paid to ALPA was involuntary (kicking and screaming from what you have written) as required dues. What a great guy you are.

Andy, do you ever question why you are the only FI member that has an attitude like you do?

And Andy: Just get used to it. The age 60 law will change soon. You should just relax and accept it. Age discrimination is wrong.

 

[rfresh]

It's hard to believe this topic is still being discussed after all these decades...