Age 60 informal poll

[Phaedrus]

Boo hoo.
Gimme mine.
Be patient.
It's good for everyone.
***Synopsis compliments of Phaedrus, INC.***

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Much of what I have earned has been given to ALPA, as well as the ALPA PAC so you (and your colleagues) can have a better career. How much have you given to the PAC? Also much of my money has been given to the furlough fund to pay for the health insurance for the furloughees like you when they left and needed help. I would guess that you were a beneficiary of this assistance? And if so I would think a nice thank you is appropriate.

Andy, I'm still waiting for an answer as to how much money you have given to ALPA and the ALPA-PAC.

And how about a thank you for the large amount of money my senority group voted to give to the furloughees like you for the much needed health insurance for you and your family. Many of your group have said thank you for the help. I have seen the thank you notes posted on the ALPA board, I but all I hear from you is "quit now old man so I can get promoted."

Do you have any comment on this?

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Like I said, if this POS law passes, then it’s “back of the bus” for the over 60 crowd. It’s the only fair integration for those of us hired under the Age 60 retirement rule. For those over age 60 that are working on their 3rd marriage and are sending kids through college, you would still have a job and some money coming in, but you do it from the FE or FO seat.

See, you guys that want Age 65, you want your cake and eat it too -- all at the junior’s guy’s expense. You want the windfall coming from retaining your seat an additional five years. Again – stealing money right out of the pockets of those junior.

Some knucklehead was even talking about upgrading directly to the right seat as being some sort of extra perk. The guys that are retiring now, most were at the highest pay (A scale) for many years and they still don’t have enough pay to retire. Many junior guys now are stuck with low pay and stagnation. There are still thousand of furlough pilots on the street. Talk about eating your young.

This is just a selfish scam from the older guys. Don’t buy into it. This is nothing more than abrogation of seniority.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[miles otoole]

I'll give you an example. Let's say that without the over-60 law changing, I was hired at my carrier at 35 and can expect to be a captain in 10 years, at 45. Then I can spend 15 years as a captain and retire at 60.
Now... I get hired at 35 and expect to be a captain in 10 years. Five years into my employment, the age-60 law changes to 65. So now I'm 40 and everyone senior to me retires at 65. There is now a 5 year pause in movement. Those who are captains remain so for 5 additional years. I remain a first or second officer for the additional 5. After the five year stop, everyone starts hitting 65. I'm now 45 years old, and start moving up the list again (old rules, I would have been a captain now). Now when I'm 50, I get to upgrade. So let's see... I get to be a captain for... that's right! Fifteen years! Same as before the age 60 rule, but the difference is I amassed additional pay as a first officer, not at the end with "the big paycheck" as you said. All the while you and your ilk got it at the captain's rate.
Add to this that I don't want to work until 60. I want to spend some time with my family. And don't tell me "you'll still be able to retire at 60 if you want," because you KNOW that'll change. Plus, then I get five less years as a captain (ten less than you).

OK, point taken. One thing you have on your side is time. 25-years to age 60, to be exact. Plenty of time to be able to retire comfortably. I'll even prove it to you. With an average annual salary over the next 25 years of $100,000 (conservatively low), if you contribute $15k with a 3% match to your 401K and earn 9% a year and don't save another dime, you'll see $1,600,000. Not too shabby. Heck, save another 10K a year, on average, and you'll be able to squeeze by with much more. Put your 2nd wife to work and heck, you just may even be able to retire at 55.

 

[Sluggo_63]

OK, point taken. One thing you have on your side is time. 25-years to age 60, to be exact. Plenty of time to be able to retire comfortably. I'll even prove it to you. With an average annual salary over the next 25 years of $100,000 (conservatively low), if you contribute $15k with a 3% match to your 401K and earn 9% a year and don't save another dime, you'll see $1,600,000. Not too shabby. Heck, save another 10K a year, on average, and you'll be able to squeeze by with much more. Put your 2nd wife to work and heck, you just may even be able to retire at 55.

That hired at 35 number was just an example. I'm a furloughed United guy. I've had the last 5+ years off. Also, first house/first wife. Hopefully it'll stay that way (okay, I have plans to buy another house. I'm trying to keep the wife, though)
I'm not too good with the math. Can you work out how much I'd have in the bank if I had UndauntedFlyers career. Hired at United at 22, so that's 38 years there. The last 18 as a captain (I think that's pretty conservative). So let's use an average salary of $75,000 for the first 20 years and $200,000 for the last 18 (average). What does that come out to... approximately.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Andy, I'm still waiting for an answer as to how much money you have given to ALPA and the ALPA-PAC.

And how about a thank you for the large amount of money my senority group voted to give to the furloughees like you for the much needed health insurance for you and your family. Many of your group have said thank you for the help. I have seen the thank you notes posted on the ALPA board, I but all I hear from you is "quit now old man so I can get promoted."

Do you have any comment on this?

Yes, on behalf of my fellow furloughees, thank you for your contribution to the health care fund. Personally, I didn't need it, but I know there are many who did. So, seriously, thank you (I posted on Boyle's my thanks long ago). I don't know if you know this, but it did took over a year for the UAL MEC to get that passed. In the meantime, a lot of furloughees were paying COBRA rates (have you seen them). DAL, AMR, NWA etc had their healthcare costs paid for within a month or so.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Now in my case, my airline career may look good when you look at where I am now, but it is also true that in my seniority position at UAL all of my newhire class was furloughed twice, once for once year and once for 3 years. Progress was also slow with minimum upgrade to F/O from the back seat at 15-years. And to 737 captain in a total from date of hire of about 20plus years, and to 777 captain at 30 years.

Really... four years of furlough. Double that, and that's what a lot of us are facing.
It took you 30 years to get to the left seat of the 777? If you were hired in 1969 at 22, You only got to be a 777 captain in 1999? When I was there, I seem to remember that seat going much junior than guys with 30 years on property. Me thinks there is some exaggeration going on.
Let's see... I was hired in 2000 as a flight engineer, maybe get recalled in 2008 (not going to take it, but just for arguments sake) when should I make captain. Do they still have that seniority calculator? Let me know.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Really... four years of furlough. Double that, and that's what a lot of us are facing.
Fifteen years to go from S/O to F/O? I have a feeling that might be a bit of an exaggeration, maybe ten years, but for now, I'll accept it.
Let's see... I was hired in 2000 as a flight engineer, maybe get recalled in 2008 (not going to take it, but just for arguments sake) when should I make captain. Do they still have that seniority calculator? Let me know.

FYI, many of my group who were a little junior to me were furloughed for 7-years, and the upgrade time to F/O was 15-years at a minumum and for those hired in 69 that were junior to me it was longer. That is fact. Believe it because it is true.

And you and your group are welcome for the help with the health insurance. We wanted to help because it was the right thing to do. Just like the strike of '85 to keep the "B" scale off the property which was successful.

So now our group needs help and all we hear is how we have had it made our whole career. This just is not true. Many of us need help just like many of the furloughees did when you went out. And of course we did help.

It might interest you to know that when I was furloughed there was no help at all and that is why we did what could be done to help the current furloughees. We remembered and now what we are getting from people like Andy is a kick in the butt and name calling. What kind of pilot group is this?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

It took you 30 years to get to the left seat of the 777? If you were hired in 1969 at 22, You only got to be a 777 captain in 1999? When I was there, I seem to remember that seat going much junior than guys with 30 years on property. Me thinks there is some exaggeration going on.
Let's see... I was hired in 2000 as a flight engineer, maybe get recalled in 2008 (not going to take it, but just for arguments sake) when should I make captain. Do they still have that seniority calculator? Let me know.

I took took the first 777 captain bid available and completed training on Feb 2, 1999. I even bid out of my domicile to get the award. Almost 30 years less a few months. That is fact.

So you see many on this board and even those who were with UAL have much misunderstanding of the facts regarding our situation.

I'm in great health and enjoy my work as anyone on this board would. And to be honest, I do not believe you or anyone else would want to quit now if they were in my situation.

Is there a member who if they were in my situation would just want to throw everything they have worked for out the window and quit just because they are age 60? I don't think so.

 

[miles otoole]

Really... four years of furlough. Double that, and that's what a lot of us are facing.

Yeah, and most of your furloughed peers are firmly entrenched at CAL, WN, JBLU, FDX, NJA, FX, CS, and UPS with NO plans to come back. In fact, most are closer to upgrade than they are from their original furlough date. Talk about exaggeration. Apparently, you are implying that all your buds will have been furloughed 8 years when it's all said and done, however, where they are now is as good or better compared to the options furloughees had in the 70s and 80s. LOL.