Age 60 informal poll

[luckytohaveajob]

Congressman Jim Gibbons in serious trouble

If Congressman R-Nev. Jim Gibbons gets prosecuted on criminal charges age 60 is in serious jeopardy. H.65 is not out of the House of Rep. Transportation committee yet and with the author of H.65 facing charges this could all come to a screeching halt.

Looking forward to the DA pressing charges!!!!!!!!

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=5610655&nav=15MV

 

[Duke of Ale]

The age 60 thing is not a law. It is a rule. If it were a law then it could be challenged as being discriminatory. But a rule by the FAA is a rule. The rule needs to be changed. I am well over 60 and have been flying a Citation X since I retired. I can still outlast the younguns on an overnight !!!! Some of us can keep on going, others can't. If you want to retire early, by all means do so. I am doing something I love. My hobby. It just happens to also be my job.

 

[Cyclone]

Duke

There are plenty of guys who can keep it going. Unfortunately a lot of you old timers can't. How do we get them to hang up there spurs when it's time...ie when they are no longer really with it enough to do the job. please don't tell me the PC and physical...besides an age rule what other means do you propose. We need something to make sure they can still do the job. If not Age 60 then what? I am all ears for a serious idea. What would work better than age 60?

 

[3BCat]

There are plenty of guys who can keep it going. Unfortunately a lot of you old timers can't. How do we get them to hang up there spurs when it's time...ie when they are no longer really with it enough to do the job. please don't tell me the PC and physical...besides an age rule what other means do you propose. We need something to make sure they can still do the job. If not Age 60 then what? I am all ears for a serious idea. What would work better than age 60?

Lets just use dog years. It makes as much sense as age 60. You know, dog years...1 year for a dog is like seven years for a pilot. If you're a big dog, you are physiologically closer to the big porch than if you are a little dog.

For that matter, lets just treat pilots like the dogs they are...Age 60 is the only reason we have aviation safety, right?. If an old dog is on his retirement flight, has to enter a hold for weather, and the ole boy turns sixty in the hold (this could really happen), I say we scramble the intercept fighters, and shoot 'em down in the overall interest of public safety. After all, being 60 is a safety issue right?

 

[Falconjet]

The age 60 thing is not a law. It is a rule. If it were a law then it could be challenged as being discriminatory. But a rule by the FAA is a rule. The rule needs to be changed. I am well over 60 and have been flying a Citation X since I retired. I can still outlast the younguns on an overnight !!!! Some of us can keep on going, others can't. If you want to retire early, by all means do so. I am doing something I love. My hobby. It just happens to also be my job.

See, there is your proof that you can fly in the US past 60.

Just can't do it for a 121 outfit.

FJ

 

[Sluggo_63]

There is actually some data that can be mined for comparison of accident/incapacitation rates of over-60 pilots versus the average for their peers:

1) Operations under 121 before "emergency" imposition of the Rule;

2) Operations by "grandfathered" pilots after the 135-Scheduled regionals were FAR119-bridged into FAR 121.

While we're at it, let's gather all the data we can from the legacy airlines on their over 60 engineers (from back when they had 3 man aircraft). Let's compare how much an over 60 engineer called in sick off a trip compared to his younger contemporaries. These guys were always sick and always calling off trips. I would like to see that data used during the study of the fitness of over-60 pilots.

 

[Klako]

The age 60 thing is not a law. It is a rule. If it were a law then it could be challenged as being discriminatory. But a rule by the FAA is a rule. The rule needs to be changed. I am well over 60 and have been flying a Citation X since I retired. I can still outlast the younguns on an overnight !!!! Some of us can keep on going, others can't. If you want to retire early, by all means do so. I am doing something I love. My hobby. It just happens to also be my job.

RIGHT ON DUKE!

 

[pilotyip]

Ditto right on, go duke, you have truely got it figured out.

 

[FoxHunter]

While we're at it, let's gather all the data we can from the legacy airlines on their over 60 engineers (from back when they had 3 man aircraft). Let's compare how much an over 60 engineer called in sick off a trip compared to his younger contemporaries. These guys were always sick and always calling off trips. I would like to see that data used during the study of the fitness of over-60 pilots.

Hmm!! Guys forced back into a position they really don't want to be. You couple that with the fact that many of those pilots have a very large sick bank that will be lost once they do retire. :beer: Most sick leave by over age 60 S/Os is probably due to eye problems, they can't see going too work.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

The airline industry is littered with sob stories -- especially in the last 20 years and the retirement age has never changed. When Eastern and Pam Am failed I didn’t see any mad rush to change the retirement age back then – most guys went back out and looked for new jobs.

There is something very sad that the guys retiring don’t seem to understand -- having an airline job is not the only job around nor is it their divine right to have one. If they need the money, there are other jobs out there both flying and non-flying. In fact, due to the crappy pay and volatility at most of the legacies now, I would say that well over 50% of the co-pilots I fly with are working on alternate professions. Why are the senior guys immune to this fact? Yes, the industry has changed. Since the senior guys have experienced some bad luck; instead of making some positive changes to the profession like getting better pay and retirements, now look for an easy target and are seeking to take out their aggression on the lower part of the seniority list. Their agenda is not only to completely erase an upper retirement age, but to keep their low seniority numbers and high paying jobs intact. Make no mistake about it, this is class warfare pitting pilots against pilots – the have’s verses the have not’s.

Moreover, this has got to be one of the most poorly planned out pieces of legislation to ever hit the airlines. Watch out junior guys – a new b-scale is coming to an airline near you -- courtesy of the senior captains that want to abrogate our seniority lists and hold on to their high paying jobs another 5 plus years.

Here are a few unknowns these guys don’t have any idea of the impact to our careers:

1. Seniority progression – How will basically eliminating any retirements for five years or more impact the lower ¾ of the seniority list? Junior crewmembers at slow or shrinking airlines will be hit especially hard. SWA, don’t think your immune. You’re losing most of your hedges next year. The end result is many guys will find themselves working the additional five years just to make back the money they lost in the first place due to delayed promotions and stagnation. The guys sitting in the most senior seats will be the lotto winners in all of this and will come at the junior guy’s expense.
2. Retirements – How will the early-out penalties work out in coming contracts?
3. Pay – You think our historically high pay scales are due to management liking us – no – it’s due mainly to the age 60 retirement. Stretch out the retirement age and watch the pressure to either reduce our wages outright or continue to let inflation eat away at them.
4. Safety – Common sense dictates that our flying skills diminish as we age. As much as we want to believe we can fly forever, all you got to do is pick up a newspaper to see how American’s are more overweight and out of shape on a national average than ever. Are there some guys that can make it – Sure – but this national law must be written for the lowest common denominator. Our commercial aviation safety demands it.
5. Lawsuits – What happens to the poor SOB that misses the age change by one day or for that matter find themselves in the 60-65 bracket when the retirement changes. We all better count on a class action lawsuit from this group for them to get back on the property. I, for one, think they have a pretty good shot at winning. If they are successful, then where and to what job, position or seniority numbers do they come back to?
6. Union cohesiveness – This law will be one of the most divisive since B-scale hit in the 80’s. At carriers where there has been basically no progression for the last five years and then adding on another five years of stagnation will make for especially ugly relations and low morale between the senior and junior.
7. Longevity -- How will flying an additional five years of all-nighters and spending five more years in a stress filled environment impact our golden years? Is this the fly to you die rule.

I’m not trying to change the older guy’s viewpoint on this. I can’t. Their selfishness and greed are too much for them to clearly see the long term implications to the industry. All they can see are the dollars in their wallets. What they can’t see is the economic harm they are seeking to impose on both the lower part of the seniority list and the profession itself.

If you don’t like the fraud the senior guy’s are attempting to pull, then write your Congressman and the FAA. Let them know your thoughts. This can be defeated.

Age 65 -- good for a few and bad for the many.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Right on! I keep telling these dumb sob's here at SWA it aint gonna last forever. All I know is it will be pretty miserable for any guy over 60 that i have to fly with if this pos passes. SAVE your call till the 13 Nov.

 

[Cyclone]

ditto

if this passes and you are over 60...let's just say the trips won't be treats. happy halloween old timers. you are going to be the persona non grata of the industry.

 

[I Hate Freight]

Age 60 is history. It's a done deal. It's going up, probably to 65 so get used to it.

If you plan on giving some captain a hard time or not doing your job like you're supposed to because he's over sixty, and you're causing a hostile or unsafe work environment then you should also prepare to be kicked off of trips and explaining your actions to your CP.

 

[Cyclone]

over 60

If he's over 60 I expect hazardous duty pay compensation if i'm the F.O. Otherwise, I expect the senior citizen to be in the right seat; if the rule mandates an assisted living F.O. who is under 60 to help the oldtimer, then the 60+ guy really ought not be the captain. Age is an issue.

If neither of the above happen, expect things to be not-so-rosy for any airline pilots over 60. They will not be popular. Trust me. They may get their way as far as the law is concerned...but they better not falter on the line.

 

[FoxHunter]

if this passes and you are over 60...let's just say the trips won't be treats. happy halloween old timers. you are going to be the persona non grata of the industry.

Son, if you were flying with me it would be a treat even if I knew you had fought the change. I flew with enough AHs before there was such a thing as CRM to make sure that there is a relaxed professional cockpit. If you want to have a beer and dinner, fine, if not that is also fine.

Now if an overt attitude problem that is causing problems you will be removed from the trip. The Chief Pilot and the VP of OPS can decide your future.

 

[Cyclone]

Condescending

Yes sir. I am sorry sir. Please forgive me sir. You know what foxhunter....that is my attitude...and the first time you doze off or miss a crossing restriction I will be the one to go to the chief...to tell him that I think you need medical evaluation and that you may be suffering from senility or some other condition that I think is preventing you from doing your job. Yes sir. Aye Aye skipper.

Stay awake. Don't mess up. You'll be just fine old timer.

 

[FoxHunter]

Yes sir. I am sorry sir. Please forgive me sir. You know what foxhunter....that is my attitude...and the first time you doze off or miss a crossing restriction I will be the one to go to the chief...to tell him that I think you need medical evaluation and that you may be suffering from senility or some other condition that I think is preventing you from doing your job. Yes sir. Aye Aye skipper.

Stay awake. Don't mess up. You'll be just fine old timer.

What can I say son? Good Luck?:beer:

 

[Sluggo_63]

Hmm!! Guys forced back into a position they really don't want to be. You couple that with the fact that many of those pilots have a very large sick bank that will be lost once they do retire. :beer: Most sick leave by over age 60 S/Os is probably due to eye problems, they can't see going too work.

First of all, no one was forced to the engineer panel when they turned 60.

Secondly, do you mean to tell me that these pilots were calling in sick en masse when they really weren't sick? Why? Because they wanted to other things than fly? But the reason they want to stay is to fly, but then why the sick call. Maybe they were just being dishonest and lying to the company to pad their retirement. I'm sure that testimony would look good in front of Congress.

 

[Cyclone]

Age Caveat

Foxhunter. For once, answer the question:

If age isn't an issue why the caveat under 60 with over 60?

If age is an issue then come up and propose something better than simply changing a number. The new rule won't make the skies safer. That is my beef. It may make the skies less safe. I have a problem with that. This isn't about greenbacks for me. For you it is. You have said so in previous posts. That is evil motive.

 

[FoxHunter]

First of all, no one was forced to the engineer panel when they turned 60.

Secondly, do you mean to tell me that these pilots were calling in sick en masse when they really weren't sick? Why? Because they wanted to other things than fly? But the reason they want to stay is to fly, but then why the sick call. Maybe they were just being dishonest and lying to the company to pad their retirement. I'm sure that testimony would look good in front of Congress.

They have a choice, be a S/O, or retire. Some were over 50 when hired ex military, ex EAL etc. Just pointing out the facts of life. Sick leave abuse is a big problem in the airline industry, it always has been. I've known guys that say they use all the sick bank every year, and therse are guys under age 40. I've heard numerous pilots say that they intend to retire with zero hours of sick pay. If they had a full bank to start with that works out to about 9-10 months pay.