CFI needs a BFR?

[Bringupthebird]

Does a CFI need a BFR if he renews his CFI online and uses his "evaluation of other pilots" clause as the basis for his CFI flight portion of the renewal? Are there any circumstances where a CFI would require a BFR?

 

[A Squared]

Does a CFI need a BFR if he renews his CFI online and uses his "evaluation of other pilots" clause as the basis for his CFI flight portion of the renewal?

Yes. Read 61.56. THere is nothing in there that remotely suggests that an administrative renewal of your instructor certificate would waive the requirement for a flight review.

Are there any circumstances where a CFI would require a BFR?

Yeah, if he acts as pilot in command, he needs a flight review. What would lead you to believe that a CFI might be exempt from the requirements for a flight review?

 

[Bringupthebird]

If provisions exist that allow a CFI to renew their instructing priviledges without the need for a flight test, why are those provisions inadequate to prove that they can still fly safely? From a purely pragmatic standpoint, why is one CFI going to try to teach and evaluate another CFI on maneuvers and topics they teach on a daily basis?

I would be interested to hear how many CFI's ever get biennials.

 

[A Squared]

If provisions exist that allow a CFI to renew their instructing priviledges without the need for a flight test, why are those provisions inadequate to prove that they can still fly safely?

Because the law makes no provision for that. It's that simple. You can argue the logic of if he is qualified for one certificate why not the other but it's a purely acedemic arguement. The regulations aren't written that way, so the logic really is irrelevant.

The regulations say you have to have a flight review every two years. The regulations do not allow you to substitute an adminstrative CFI renewal for a flight review.

There's not much more to the issue.

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, why is one CFI going to try to teach and evaluate another CFI on maneuvers and topics they teach on a daily basis?

from a purely pragmatic standpoint: Because the regulations require it.

I would be interested to hear how many CFI's ever get biennials.

All of them who meet the regulatory requirements to act as a pilot in command

 

[nosehair]

Clue: The FAA regulation does not see 'pilot certificate' the same as 'flight instructor certificate'.

 

[Catnhat]

Does a CFI need a BFR if he renews his CFI online and uses his "evaluation of other pilots" clause as the basis for his CFI flight portion of the renewal? Are there any circumstances where a CFI would require a BFR?

The only portion of the Flight Review requirement waived for a CFI is the ground portion under 61.56(f) if the CFI has completed an approved course for renewal. Otherwise, there is no link between CFI renewal and the requirement for a flight review that I have ever heard of.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would be interested to hear how many CFI's ever get biennials.

Hopefully all of them get a FR or one of the acceptable substitutes (CFI renewal is not one) or the FAA is going to have some fun with certificate actions.

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, why is one CFI going to try to teach and evaluate another CFI on maneuvers and topics they teach on a daily basis?

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, what makes you think a CFI has already learned everything there is to know about being a pilot and could not use periodic reevaluation and refreshers on piloting skills? And who says that what will be evaluated will be the stuff the CFI teaches on a daily basis?

 

[CFIse]

I would be interested to hear how many CFI's ever get biennials.

I'd be interested in how many CFI's have pencil whipped FRs. I can't tell you the number of "part-time" CFI's who asked me to endorse their FR without ground or flight training as a "professional courtesy". So I was professional and courteous as I told them to get lost.

Most fun I ever had for an hour was flying with another CFI. Probably also proving the old theory that the most dangerous flight is with 2 CFIs at the controls......

 

[pgcfii2002]

The CFI renewal does count towards the ground portion of a BFR, but you still must fly for the minimum 1 hour.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'd be interested in how many CFI's have pencil whipped FRs. I can't tell you the number of "part-time" CFI's who asked me to endorse their FR without ground or flight training as a "professional courtesy". So I was professional and courteous as I told them to get lost.

Not only professional and courteous, but appropriate as well. My hat's off to you.

 

[rickair7777]

Clue: The FAA regulation does not see 'pilot certificate' the same as 'flight instructor certificate'.

This is very true and the technicality even extends to regs regarding a flight test for a pilot certificate counting as a FR...since an instructor checkride is not a test for a "pilot certificate", it does not automatically count as a FR. You can ask the examiner to give you a FR endorsement concurrent with the checkride, but it is not automatic.

Note: some FSDO's seem to accept an instructor checkride as a reset of the FR clock, even without a FR endorsement (san diego for example). But I believe this is not the case everywhere.

 

[rickair7777]

Not only professional and courteous, but appropriate as well. My hat's off to you.

Yeah, at least spring for an hour in a 152, followed by lunch...common courtesy.

 

[Mr Wu]

The CFI renewal does count towards the ground portion of a BFR, but you still must fly for the minimum 1 hour.

Couldn't be bothered looking up the exact wording of the FAR but it says something to the effect that an active instructor does not need to do the ground portion. An instructor where I used to instruct came under scrutiny from the FAA because of an incident with one of his students. He was violated because he was using the date of his CFI issuance as his BFR date and didn't have a seperate entry for the BFR (or didn't perform one). His was expired.

 

[A Squared]

An instructor where I used to instruct came under scrutiny from the FAA because of an incident with one of his students. He was violated because he was using the date of his CFI issuance as his BFR date and didn't have a seperate entry for the BFR (or didn't perform one). His was expired.

Interesting, the FAA actually does pursue enforcement actions on this basis. This is why I give this dead horse another kick every time it comes up. There's still instructors who haven't got the word, and it's a shame for somone to get a violation when they thought were in compliance with the regs to the best of thier (flawed) understanding of those regs. I guess this provides the answer to those who always pop up in these threads and say "that's bull$hit, the FAA would never bust somone for that, an inspector told me so"

Yes, they do, apparently.

 

[rettofly]

I would be interested to hear how many CFI's ever get biennials.

I haven't had a BFR in decades, but I do get Part 135 6-mo IPC (135.297) and 12-mo recurrent (135.293) checks, which satisfies the BFR requirement.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

CFI's need a flight review every 2 years regardless. And the CFI, CFII or MEI checkride DOES NOT count as a BFR.

 

[CFII_4Ever]

CFI's need a flight review every 2 years regardless. And the CFI, CFII or MEI checkride DOES NOT count as a BFR.

Are we sure about this. I was always under the impression that initial checkrides do in fact take the place of a BFR.

Can anyone verify this as I sit here sweating?

 

[A Squared]

Are we sure about this. I was always under the impression that initial checkrides do in fact take the place of a BFR.

Can anyone verify this as I sit here sweating?

Unless you got an endorsement stating that the CFI ride also was intended as a flight review, then no, it would not count. All the checkrides which exempt you from the requirement for a flight review are *pilot* checkride, and a CFI checkride is not a pilot checkride.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Are we sure about this. I was always under the impression that initial checkrides do in fact take the place of a BFR.

Can anyone verify this as I sit here sweating?

Well, you're not going to like this, but it's true. Your CFI ride does not count as a certificate, rating or operating privilege in the eyes ofthe FAA. Although they cover pretty much the same material, unless at the time of the checkride it is agreed that it will also function as a BFR, you can not count the CFI ride in and of itself as resetting the 2 yr clock.

§ 61.56 Flight review.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training. The review must include:
(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and
(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.
(b) Glider pilots may substitute a minimum of three instructional flights in a glider, each of which includes a flight to traffic pattern altitude, in lieu of the 1 hour of flight training required in paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—
(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.
(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

 

[A Squared]

Your CFI ride does not count as a certificate, rating or operating privilege in the eyes ofthe FAA.

Just to clarify, it's not a *pilot* certificate, rating or operating privilege. That's the crux. Obviously, the Instructor certificate is a certificate, and a rating on that certificate is a rating. They are just not *pilot* certificates and ratings.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Thanks for clarifying that. I realized I omitted that from the regs. language.

Too bad for the CFI who may have been operating under an expired flight review.

 

[A Squared]

Thanks for clarifying that. I realized I omitted that from the regs. language.

I knew what you meant, and I know you knew what you meant, but some others might have been scratching thier heads.

 

[nosehair]

Can anyone verify this as I sit here sweating?

Don't sweat it. I, and many CFI's, have had that same mis-understanding. The FSDO is not going to 'come after' you if you had that mis-understanding. It might be a problem for you if you have an accident and the insurance co. wants a way out or a FSDO inspector gets it into his personal life to 'get you' on something, but that would mean you have invited his/her wrath on something else, usually, so it isn't anything to be overly concerned about.

However, to clarify on the idea of getting an examiner to sign off on the FR on the checkride; well, the checkride isn't dual, and would not fit the requirement of 1 hour dual, and most examiners wouldn't want to assume liability of signing off a FR.

The right way is to get the instructor who signed you off for the checkride to also sign off a FR.

 

[typeratedjet]

CFI's do need FR's. I gave a DE a FR once--it seemed silly and the easiest money I ever made--but necessary/required by the FAR's. You never know, you might learn something new!

 

[rickair7777]

Don't sweat it. I, and many CFI's, have had that same mis-understanding. The FSDO is not going to 'come after' you if you had that mis-understanding. It might be a problem for you if you have an accident and the insurance co. wants a way out or a FSDO inspector gets it into his personal life to 'get you' on something, but that would mean you have invited his/her wrath on something else, usually, so it isn't anything to be overly concerned about.

However, to clarify on the idea of getting an examiner to sign off on the FR on the checkride; well, the checkride isn't dual, and would not fit the requirement of 1 hour dual, and most examiners wouldn't want to assume liability of signing off a FR.

The right way is to get the instructor who signed you off for the checkride to also sign off a FR.

I've been in this boat myself...

You might be able to get the CFI's who signed off your instructor ride(s) to fill out a BFR entry for the same date as the ride signoff...that's only logical.

I don't think it's an insurance problem if you have a valid FR when the accident happens...it doesn't matter about past history at that point. So get FR before you fly again.

There may also be a statute of limitations on FAR enforcement, I doubt they could get you on a something that happened years ago, assuming you are now in compliance...the more time that passes, the better off you are. You might want to fill out a nasa form and keep the receipt forever in case you ever get questioned on it.

 

[DruDown]

To further the demonstrate the point that a CFI Certificate is not the same as a pilot certificate, all of you CFIs please look at the back of your CFI Certificate at the "LIMITATIONS" section which states:

Valid Only When Accompanied By PILOT CERTIFICATE No. XXXXXXXXX

This limitation makes it very clear that a CFI Certificate is seperate and different from a Pilot Certificate.

Dru

 

[avbug]

From the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) published by FAA Employee John Lynch, at the time AFS-840 of the Airman Certification Branch...who was responsible for writing and administering the regulation:


QUESTION: The particular question is whether a flight instructor who passes a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) is or is not exempt from needing a § 61.56 Flight Review for the next two years, since the reg. specifically says PILOT proficiency check.” § 6l.56 d - allows this exemption for a person who has"... passed a PILOT proficiency check.." not needing to accomplish a flight review for the next 2 years.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.56(d); If the examiner also evaluates the applicant’s piloting skills then YES, “. . . a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) . . .” would meet the requirements of a § 61.56 Flight Review. However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful completion of the Flight Review, the examiner should record that the § 61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant’s logbook.

§ 61.56(d) states:
(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.


QUESTION: Does a Part 141 annual check also count in lieu of a flight review?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.56(d); As is the case in the Answer to Question 1 above, if the Chief Instructor, Assistant Chief Instructor, or Check Instructor evaluates the flight instructor’s piloting skills then the answer is YES, a Part 141 annual check would count for a § 61.56 Flight Review. However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful completion of the Flight Review, the Chief Instructor, Assistant Chief Instructor, or Check Instructor who conducts the check should record that the § 61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant’s logbook.

 

[nosehair]

So...lemme get this straight, now. You're tellin' me...what you're tellin' me is...that a CFI renewal ride, an actual flight check in an airplane...that don't count as a BFR? Thass what you're sayin'?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The CFI renewal ride is no different than the initial which on its own, does not qualify as a FR.

 

[BGSkyGuy]

FSDO disagrees

I just got off the phone with the CLT FSDO and they are saying that any additional RATING qualifies as a BFR. i.e. instructor RATING. Someone clrify this for me before I go blow $100 bucks on a stupid BFR.