CFI needs a BFR?

[Amish RakeFight]

Thanks for clarifying that. I realized I omitted that from the regs. language.

Too bad for the CFI who may have been operating under an expired flight review.

 

[A Squared]

Thanks for clarifying that. I realized I omitted that from the regs. language.

I knew what you meant, and I know you knew what you meant, but some others might have been scratching thier heads.

 

[nosehair]

Can anyone verify this as I sit here sweating?

Don't sweat it. I, and many CFI's, have had that same mis-understanding. The FSDO is not going to 'come after' you if you had that mis-understanding. It might be a problem for you if you have an accident and the insurance co. wants a way out or a FSDO inspector gets it into his personal life to 'get you' on something, but that would mean you have invited his/her wrath on something else, usually, so it isn't anything to be overly concerned about.

However, to clarify on the idea of getting an examiner to sign off on the FR on the checkride; well, the checkride isn't dual, and would not fit the requirement of 1 hour dual, and most examiners wouldn't want to assume liability of signing off a FR.

The right way is to get the instructor who signed you off for the checkride to also sign off a FR.

 

[typeratedjet]

CFI's do need FR's. I gave a DE a FR once--it seemed silly and the easiest money I ever made--but necessary/required by the FAR's. You never know, you might learn something new!

 

[rickair7777]

Don't sweat it. I, and many CFI's, have had that same mis-understanding. The FSDO is not going to 'come after' you if you had that mis-understanding. It might be a problem for you if you have an accident and the insurance co. wants a way out or a FSDO inspector gets it into his personal life to 'get you' on something, but that would mean you have invited his/her wrath on something else, usually, so it isn't anything to be overly concerned about.

However, to clarify on the idea of getting an examiner to sign off on the FR on the checkride; well, the checkride isn't dual, and would not fit the requirement of 1 hour dual, and most examiners wouldn't want to assume liability of signing off a FR.

The right way is to get the instructor who signed you off for the checkride to also sign off a FR.

I've been in this boat myself...

You might be able to get the CFI's who signed off your instructor ride(s) to fill out a BFR entry for the same date as the ride signoff...that's only logical.

I don't think it's an insurance problem if you have a valid FR when the accident happens...it doesn't matter about past history at that point. So get FR before you fly again.

There may also be a statute of limitations on FAR enforcement, I doubt they could get you on a something that happened years ago, assuming you are now in compliance...the more time that passes, the better off you are. You might want to fill out a nasa form and keep the receipt forever in case you ever get questioned on it.

 

[DruDown]

To further the demonstrate the point that a CFI Certificate is not the same as a pilot certificate, all of you CFIs please look at the back of your CFI Certificate at the "LIMITATIONS" section which states:

Valid Only When Accompanied By PILOT CERTIFICATE No. XXXXXXXXX

This limitation makes it very clear that a CFI Certificate is seperate and different from a Pilot Certificate.

Dru

 

[avbug]

From the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) published by FAA Employee John Lynch, at the time AFS-840 of the Airman Certification Branch...who was responsible for writing and administering the regulation:


QUESTION: The particular question is whether a flight instructor who passes a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) is or is not exempt from needing a § 61.56 Flight Review for the next two years, since the reg. specifically says PILOT proficiency check.” § 6l.56 d - allows this exemption for a person who has"... passed a PILOT proficiency check.." not needing to accomplish a flight review for the next 2 years.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.56(d); If the examiner also evaluates the applicant’s piloting skills then YES, “. . . a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) . . .” would meet the requirements of a § 61.56 Flight Review. However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful completion of the Flight Review, the examiner should record that the § 61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant’s logbook.

§ 61.56(d) states:
(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.


QUESTION: Does a Part 141 annual check also count in lieu of a flight review?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.56(d); As is the case in the Answer to Question 1 above, if the Chief Instructor, Assistant Chief Instructor, or Check Instructor evaluates the flight instructor’s piloting skills then the answer is YES, a Part 141 annual check would count for a § 61.56 Flight Review. However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful completion of the Flight Review, the Chief Instructor, Assistant Chief Instructor, or Check Instructor who conducts the check should record that the § 61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant’s logbook.

 

[nosehair]

So...lemme get this straight, now. You're tellin' me...what you're tellin' me is...that a CFI renewal ride, an actual flight check in an airplane...that don't count as a BFR? Thass what you're sayin'?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The CFI renewal ride is no different than the initial which on its own, does not qualify as a FR.

 

[BGSkyGuy]

FSDO disagrees

I just got off the phone with the CLT FSDO and they are saying that any additional RATING qualifies as a BFR. i.e. instructor RATING. Someone clrify this for me before I go blow $100 bucks on a stupid BFR.

 

[A Squared]

I just got off the phone with the CLT FSDO and they are saying that any additional RATING qualifies as a BFR. i.e. instructor RATING. Someone clrify this for me before I go blow $100 bucks on a stupid BFR.

Your FSDO is wrong. Go back and ask the inspector who told you that to write and sign an official legal interpretation that says what he told you. He won't. he is not authorized to do that. The folks who are authorized to issue official binding legal interpretations (FAA counsel) say it doesn't count.

When you're in front of the NTSB judge, it's going to be the legal folks you are facing, not the inspector. They say no. Who's word do you want to take?

 

[BGSkyGuy]

When you're in front of the NTSB judge, it's going to be the legal folks you are facing, not the inspector. They say no. Who's word do you want to take?[/quote]

No offense but I'm going to take the FSDO's word over a pilot forum this time. The back of my instructor ticket says the word ratings. You can argue about it not being a pilot certificate but it sure as h$ll isn't a CDL. To be honest this whole thing is making my head spin. I'm just a stupid pilot.....

 

[A Squared]

No offense but I'm going to take the FSDO's word over a pilot forum this time. The back of my instructor ticket says the word ratings. You can argue about it not being a pilot certificate but it sure as h$ll isn't a CDL. To be honest this whole thing is making my head spin. I'm just a stupid pilot.....

OK. you have official guidance that tells you that it's not valid.

You have a lucid explanation of why it's not considered valid.

You have an example of somone who got an enforcement action because it wasn't valid.

and you have an explanation why the answer you got from the FSDO is not an official legal opinion.

Yet you're going to ignore that.

If you're interested in understanding, read on, maybe I can put it in a way that makes sense to you. If you're absolutely not interested in learning something new, which could save you some grief, please skip the next part as it will be a waste of your time:

Your instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate. Take it out of you pocket. Look at it. The only place it says "pilot" is the part where ir reminds you that it's only valid if accompanied by a *pilot* certificate. Additionally, the regulations consistently distinguish between a pilot certificate and an instructor certificate. This is why they are two seperate pieces of plstic. because they are not one and the same. A flight instructor certificate is no more a pilot certificate than is a flight engineer certificate or a flight navigator certificate, or a ground instructor certificate.

Now, the regulations specify a PILOT cerificate, rating or operating privelege. Is a flight instructor certificate a pilot certificate. Absolutely not. it's a flight instructor certificate. Is a rating on your instructor certificate a pilot rating? again, absolutely not. pilot ratings are those ratings on your pilot certifcate. the ratings on you flight instructor certificate are flight instructor ratings.

DOes a fiight instructor certificate give you *any* pilot operating priveleges? again, absolutely not. Go down to your local FBO and attempt to rent an airplane with only your flight instructor certificate. They'll laugh at you. Next time you're ramp chacked, only show the inspector your flight instructor certificate. He'll proably laugh too, unless you persist, they he'll proably start an enforcement proceeding against you.

A CFI checkride, whether initial or not doesn't give you any pilot certificate, pilot rating or pilot operating privilege. That's what is required by the regulation.

 

[avbug]

No offense but I'm going to take the FSDO's word over a pilot forum this time. The back of my instructor ticket says the word ratings. You can argue about it not being a pilot certificate but it sure as h$ll isn't a CDL. To be honest this whole thing is making my head spin. I'm just a stupid pilot.....

Based on your statements, the only accurate thing you said was the incomplete last sentence. You believe the FSDO. Believe the tooth fairey and the easter bunny too. I hear they're very accurate, and quite authoritative. Almost as much as what you'll get at the FSDO level...which isn't granted the authority to interpret regulation.

Ignorance of the regulation is no excuse.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

No offense but I'm going to take the FSDO's word over a pilot forum this time. The back of my instructor ticket says the word ratings. You can argue about it not being a pilot certificate but it sure as h$ll isn't a CDL. To be honest this whole thing is making my head spin. I'm just a stupid pilot.....

Based on your statements, the only accurate thing you said was the incomplete last sentence. You believe the FSDO. Believe the tooth fairey and the easter bunny too. I hear they're very accurate, and quite authoritative. Almost as much as what you'll get at the FSDO level...which isn't granted the authority to interpret regulation.



.
Ignorance of the regulation is no excuse.

 

[toflyseeme]

O.K. guys, here's ther real reason the CFI initial and CFI add-ons dont qualify as a FR. Check the PTS.....the checkrides for other "ratings(pvt.,comm., instr.,etc) have to demonstrate "pilot proficiency." The CFI tickets have to demonstrate "instructional knowledge" only. Theoretically the CFI applicant could demonstrate a maneuver and be all over the sky, yet be able to teach it very well to a student.

 

[CFIse]

No offense but I'm going to take the FSDO's word over a pilot forum this time. The back of my instructor ticket says the word ratings. You can argue about it not being a pilot certificate but it sure as h$ll isn't a CDL. To be honest this whole thing is making my head spin. I'm just a stupid pilot.....

If you can get the FSDO inspector to put it in writing then it'll probably help you get off from a first offense. However - if it's not in writing then it's not worth the paper it's not written on.

You won't get it in writing because FSDO inspectors rarely put anything in writing they don't have to. If you insist, the inspector you talked to will go away and check what he/she is saying is correct before sending you the letter, at which point they will find out they were wrong and they won't give you the answer you want in writing.

So right now you have a verbal from a FSDO inspector that is counter to long-standing interpretation.

I know how this works - my boss once wanted to get around all that sticky Part 135 regulation stuff and start transporting people under the guise of providing them with instruction. God Bless them the FSDO told him this was OK, multiple times, on the phone. I told him none of the instructors would be flying these trips without written confirmation. He could never get it, the FSDO wouldn't even respond to his e-mails, they'd pick up the phone and call him back. He never got anything in writing to support the interpretation, and we never flew any trips.

 

[BGSkyGuy]

FSDO disagrees

I'm not trying to start a p!ssing match here but I called four different FSDO's this morning and every single one of them has made me feel like a dumb#ss for asking this question. I understand where you are coming from and that the language is vague in the reg but the fact remains that the people in charge of ramp checking me and enforcing this reg are telling me that I do not need a BFR. I have been told by each inspector that any additional FAA rating that involves a flight check constitutes a BFR. I have called the Charlotte, Greensboro, Cleveland, Detroit, and Columbus FSDO's and I feel confident in my response.

Now that I got that out of the way I would like to address several of your arguments. I would like to emphasize the fact that I do not want to start an argument only an intelligent discussion.

"You have official guidance that tells you it's not valid"
I also have five FAA Inspectors who tell me it is valid.

"You have a lucid explanation as to why it isn't valid"
True

"And you have an explanation why the answer you got from the FSDO is not an official legal opinion."
True, but as I stated above if the person in charge of ramping me says that I don't need a BFR then I tend to believe him. Especially when four of his coworkers tell me the same thing.

To be continued......

 

[FlySacto]

When you're in front of the NTSB judge, it's going to be the legal folks you are facing, not the inspector. They say no. Who's word do you want to take?

No offense but I'm going to take the FSDO's word over a pilot forum this time. The back of my instructor ticket says the word ratings. You can argue about it not being a pilot certificate but it sure as h$ll isn't a CDL. To be honest this whole thing is making my head spin. I'm just a stupid pilot.....[/quote]

You've got a pilot's certificate and an instructor's certificate. It'll be good in a future interview when you can explain the differences about the RATINGS on your PILOT certificate and your INSTRUCTOR certificate. I'd ask you in an interview to show me the words "flight review complete" in your logbook. Then I'd ask you why you were flying without a flight review. Then I'd ask you to leave. Then you could call your FSDO and tell them I suck and don't have a clue. Wanna go find the DPE who did your INSTRUCTOR rating and ask him/her to write those magic words in your logbook and date them?

Go spend your $100 and save yourself some future grief dude!

 

[FlySacto]

I'm not trying to start a p!ssing match here but I called four different FSDO's this morning and every single one of them has made me feel like a dumb#ss for asking this question. I understand where you are coming from and that the language is vague in the reg but the fact remains that the people in charge of ramp checking me and enforcing this reg are telling me that I do not need a BFR. I have been told by each inspector that any additional FAA rating that involves a flight check constitutes a BFR. I have called the Charlotte, Greensboro, Cleveland, Detroit, and Columbus FSDO's and I feel confident in my response.


To be continued......

Here's the key, Communication. You can, during an instructor checkride, also demonstrate your PILOT proficiency and have it DOCUMENTED along with the pass/fail of the INSTRUCTOR rating. EVERYONE has agreed, and even your FSDO folks have told you that a instructor checkride can also be a flight review. Have you communicated to those FSDO folks that you don't have any documentation that says you have a flight review complete? Call all of them back and ask them if you need to have any words like "BFR" or "flight review complete" somewhere in your logbook. If just one of them says yes then what are you going to do?