How much am I worth

[siucavflight]

Here is the deal, I am pretty low on turbine time, and have had an offer to fly for a 135 company in the midwest as SIC. They have two citations, a beechjet, and a kingair 350. The owner wants to get me 135 SIC qualified in all three, he will pay for the training and put me on salary and benefits even while training. The problem is that the pay seems a little low to me, he wants to pay me in the low 20's for the first year.

The deliema is that while I do what to fly jets I refuse to get paid less than the industry norm just because it is a great opportunity, I feel like a lot of the low pay in aviation is due to guys who will fly for any wage just because it is a shiney new jet, AND I DONT WANT TO BE THAT GUY!

My question to you guys who know, what type of pay should I be receiving, I am not looking for something outstanding, but average for me would be alright.

 

[MNR]

As a 1200 hour CFII/MEI I was hired back in 1996 to fly a Baron for $18,000/yr, cargo at night. Sounds like you have about the same or maybe a little better qualifications. Also sounds like a little bit better gig. Its an entry level position, and your entry level qualified. The owner is willing to get you qualified in all three aircraft and pay you and give you benifits while in training, sounds like a decent owner to me. If that was going to be your salery in two years I would question it, but for all the training your getting etc. low $20's seems about right for Part 135 entry level, for the aircraft you are refering to.

I understand what your saying about working for little or no wages. As pilots we have created our own problem to a certain extent. This job your speaking of sounds ok as an entry level position. The other intangables, get paid while in training, having the company pay for your training etc. are what set it apart from just another bad 135 SIC job. If you want to balance the equation even more ask about per diem, amount of overnights per month, hard days off, expectations of being on-call, schedule in general, where you stay if you are on the road and other QOL stuff. As you get further in your avaition career you will find this can far outweigh just the $ in your paycheck.

Hope that helps

 

[Benu]

Someone paying for your training? 90% of the guys and gals here talk about the pay and 10% talks about the upgrade. You on the other hand are gettin' turbine and better pay than most regionals. If you're here flyin' for the money, use you degree. Some of the peeps here had to earn there take unless you're PFT. Enjoy it!

 

[flipper66]

$20K first year doesn't sound out of line. Especially if they are going to train you in 3 aircraft. Our company starts at $20K, then goes up to $30K after first year as SIC.

 

[B190Captain]

Here is the deal, I am pretty low on turbine time, and have had an offer to fly for a 135 company in the midwest as SIC. They have two citations, a beechjet, and a kingair 350. The owner wants to get me 135 SIC qualified in all three, he will pay for the training and put me on salary and benefits even while training. The problem is that the pay seems a little low to me, he wants to pay me in the low 20's for the first year.

The deliema is that while I do what to fly jets I refuse to get paid less than the industry norm just because it is a great opportunity, I feel like a lot of the low pay in aviation is due to guys who will fly for any wage just because it is a shiney new jet, AND I DONT WANT TO BE THAT GUY!

My question to you guys who know, what type of pay should I be receiving, I am not looking for something outstanding, but average for me would be alright.

Good luck in your decision but I am inclined to say the pay is sh*t, IMHO. Besides, how much flying are you going to do in a year? Are you just going to fly or be the errand boy, airplane cleaner and washer and so on?

 

[learflyer]

Here is the deal, I am pretty low on turbine time, and have had an offer to fly for a 135 company in the midwest as SIC. They have two citations, a beechjet, and a kingair 350. The owner wants to get me 135 SIC qualified in all three, he will pay for the training and put me on salary and benefits even while training. The problem is that the pay seems a little low to me, he wants to pay me in the low 20's for the first year.

The deliema is that while I do what to fly jets I refuse to get paid less than the industry norm just because it is a great opportunity, I feel like a lot of the low pay in aviation is due to guys who will fly for any wage just because it is a shiney new jet, AND I DONT WANT TO BE THAT GUY!

My question to you guys who know, what type of pay should I be receiving, I am not looking for something outstanding, but average for me would be alright.

Sounds like a good deal to me (for your experience). The fact that he is paying for your training and care enough to send you to school, says alot. This is a different example of what your concerns are. This really isn't "undercutting the next guy" or anything like that. Heck, Defense attorneys right out of school make in the high 20's in some jurisdictions.

 

[Pattern-Master]

Just be careful not to become there gopher boy. This happened to me a while back for a company I was flying at. One thing I like about the airlines is you park the plane and walk away from it, no cleaning, no stocking the plane, no putting the plane in the hanger after a long day, and no calls at 1:00 A.M for a departure in 1 hour.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Here is the deal, I am pretty low on turbine time, and have had an offer to fly for a 135 company in the midwest as SIC. They have two citations, a beechjet, and a kingair 350. The owner wants to get me 135 SIC qualified in all three, he will pay for the training and put me on salary and benefits even while training. The problem is that the pay seems a little low to me, he wants to pay me in the low 20's for the first year.

The deliema is that while I do what to fly jets I refuse to get paid less than the industry norm just because it is a great opportunity, I feel like a lot of the low pay in aviation is due to guys who will fly for any wage just because it is a shiney new jet, AND I DONT WANT TO BE THAT GUY!

My question to you guys who know, what type of pay should I be receiving, I am not looking for something outstanding, but average for me would be alright.

Take the job, get some experience and look for the next job that pays 50k. Get some more experience and look for the next job that pays 75k. Get some more experience and look for the next job that pays 100k.

 

[Freight Dog]

SIU... that is on a big time low end, and that owner is trying to swindle you. He's gonna pay you what you could be making flying for a regional. What is your incentive to go there as opposed to say Comair or Air Wisconsin?

Be aware of slimeballs like this owner. I'd be very cautious of bizjet operators that pay equivalent of regionals. Generally, they are trying to exploit young bucks with SJS.

Self-respect goes a long way. Keep looking because I guarantee you there are similar jobs flying similar equipment for way more money.

 

[siucavflight]

SIU... that is on a big time low end, and that owner is trying to swindle you. He's gonna pay you what you could be making flying for a regional. What is your incentive to go there as opposed to say Comair or Air Wisconsin?

Be aware of slimeballs like this owner. I'd be very cautious of bizjet operators that pay equivalent of regionals. Generally, they are trying to exploit young bucks with SJS.

Self-respect goes a long way. Keep looking because I guarantee you there are similar jobs flying similar equipment for way more money.

That is kind of what I am feeling, he keeps saying that I will get the same as I would at the regional, and I keep saying, yes but this is not a regional.

 

[flyingmonkey]

Sounds like a deal you could work with. Not having a training contract and having the employer pay for training is a big step in the right direction. Maybe you could press for just a little more money and some sort of mechanism to ensure a raise after the first year. Good luck whatever you decide!

 

[siucavflight]

Sounds like a deal you could work with. Not having a training contract and having the employer pay for training is a big step in the right direction. Maybe you could press for just a little more money and some sort of mechanism to ensure a raise after the first year. Good luck whatever you decide!

Thanks for the advice, I am seriously considering it. I have also had an offer from a good regional so I am not sure which way I am going to go.

 

[Freight Dog]

One BIG question:

Do you have hard days off with this guy? Here's the thing... you'll get 13-16 days off or so with a regional as a line holder with a good airline. Now, on those days, you are free to go wherever you want, and do whatever you want, and you don't have to answer your phone or Blackberry.

Now... with this guy, do you get time off like that? Sure, he may say you'll fly 15 days, but are you on call the rest of the month? Are you free to turn off your Blackberry or your cell? If the answer is no... your answer should be no f**king way.

 

[siucavflight]

One BIG question:

Do you have hard days off with this guy? Here's the thing... you'll get 13-16 days off or so with a regional as a line holder with a good airline. Now, on those days, you are free to go wherever you want, and do whatever you want, and you don't have to answer your phone or Blackberry.

Now... with this guy, do you get time off like that? Sure, he may say you'll fly 15 days, but are you on call the rest of the month? Are you free to turn off your Blackberry or your cell? If the answer is no... your answer should be no f**king way.

He said five hard days off a month.

 

[SMOOTHRIDE]

My experience for the last 1 year 3 months:

4 days off and being on call 24/7 the rest of the time = no life.

You end up not doing a lot of stuff. Your friends/wife are less than impressed because you can't go anywhere that's more than a half hour away.

Beer = only when off, or within 2 hours after you duty off from a flight. (10 hour crew rest - 8 hour bottle to throttle = 2 hour legal beer window).

You end up sitting around. You are a limo driver. You drop off a client, and sit at the FBO for 8 hours. Then you fly them back and do paperwork.

It's feast or famine. When you fly a lot, you are more or less happy.

When you don't fly a lot (most of the time) you sit around in your house. On call = no life. If you are a home fix it up guy you have died and gone to heaven.

On demand charter = dirty word. Short notice pop up flights suck really bad.

You cringe when a cell phone goes off because it might be dispatch with a pop up. I'm gun shy of cell phones now.

 

[Rokit88]

You cringe when a cell phone goes off because it might be dispatch with a pop up. I'm gun shy of cell phones now.

So you probaly shoudn't have that machine gun ringtone then, eh??

 

[Freight Dog]

Like I said... for that salary, don't walk away - run!

I understand entry-level, but the money he's offering is not worth the hassles, not to mention he is trying to extremely lowball you.

Let's summarize this. This owner thinks you're qualified for the job otherwise I can guarantee you that he wouldn't want to hire you. Yet, he's trying to make it sound like he's doing you a favor and he's willing to pay you what you'd make at a regional. Now, he wants to work you way harder than you would at a regional, but still wants to pay you regional straight pay without the overtime you'd get for working as hard and without travel benefits. This is not even including side duties that come with being a charter pilot.

I'm not saying that there's anything bad about charter flying, quite the contrary, the flying is definitely better than the airline flying, but you can attach a dollar figure to everything we're talking about.

OK... so if he wants to negotiate a regional airline equivalent of 5 hard days off, he needs to pay you something around 5 flight hours per day average at a regional X 10 more days days of work than a regional X 150% of regular rate as overtime you'd get at a regional to get what you should be paid. Otherwise, your wage is not gonna be anywhere remotely near what the regional guys make because they'll be working a whole lot less for the same money.

When you add it all up, charter company or even a private individual need to pay substantially more than your counterpart at a regional makes in order to be competitive for pilots simply because the working conditions are different and more demanding.

Like I said, nothing wrong with working harder, but it needs to be compensated for. If I were you, I wouldn't even talk to the guy for under 40k. That'd be the starting point.

The guy wants to compare your job to a regional pilot job. I think you should compare it to NetJets, and ask him for the equivalent of NetJets+ because he expects you to fly 3 airplanes instead of just one. Bear in mind, guys on reserve at NJA can only fly up to 18 days a month with 4 hard days off. Their 1st year base pay is 46k, they only fly 1 plane, and they all get type rated in training. So what separates you from them? 300 hours according to your profile? Plus you'd fly 3 planes instead of 1? There's your answer.

Self-respect, my friend...

 

[SMOOTHRIDE]

Rokit;

Yup, I think I'll take it out back and shoot it. Serves it right for ringin' at me. :uzi:

 

[El Bucho]

Isn't there a limit to the number of types you can fly on 135? I thought it was 2. Might want to look into that too. It's either that your you can use 2 type ratings. It might just be a PIC thing too. I don't really know, would have to look it up to be certain.

 

[T-1GUY]

I say suck it up for a year. The cost of training you in three airplanes would cost you over $50,000 if you were to pay for this yourself. Go to training, work hard, get typed, get 1 year of experience under your belt.

You will have an easy time finding a $50,000 a year position in no time. While on the road, Network, Network, Network. While at training, Network, Network, Network.

I understand the pay is low, but this job could set you up for something much better.

Ask about the training. How soon will you be trained in all three? Is there per diem involved?? Ask the question "If I do a good job, and get trained in all three aircraft, will I see an increase in my compensation?" The key is "When?"

Call Simuflite or Flight Safety, Ask them the cost of this training. It might open your eyes....

 

[Publishers]

The thing that no one is bringing up is that with this fleet, the owner has more than one pilot. What are the other pilots like, what is there record been, do they get reasonable compensation, how are they treated, have they stayed there awhile, etc...???
This could be a great deal for you or a lousy one. You mentioned you were low on turbine time but we do not have enough information on the rest of your background??

 

[aussiefly]

Depends how the long the upgrade is and whether you are going to be the gopher boy as well. IMHO thats pretty darn low pay for being qual'd in 3 types.

 

[Freight Dog]

T-1... I don't know about you, but I simply don't care what the cost of training is. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. That is the cost of doing business. If the owner cannot afford to pay that, he has no business owning those airplanes.

 

[T-1GUY]

Freight Dog,

I agree that the pay is not up to par. However, if the owner pays for the training, and you accept the training, you will now have some leverage over your salary. Furthermore, if you decide to walk away after a few months, you will now have more qualifications that can help make you competitive for a higher paying job. If the owner doesnt want you to leave, you could always ask him to pay you what you are now worth.

Dont get me wrong, I think the salary sucks....But I also realize that this profession has a certain "whore yourself out" mentality.

Its a dog eat dog world and I would love to see owners like this go away... I have lost more than one job offer from an owner who couldnt pay NBAA salaries, but could drop $15,000 a night at the blackjack tables.

I say get the training, ask for more pay, and if the owner wont budge, WALK!!!

 

[Way2Broke]

Are they typing you?

 

[Publishers]

Freight Dog may know more people than I do but it seems to me that depending on the answers to the questions I posed above, this may be an opportuniity. Frankly there has only been one pilot that I have come across in the last three years that we felt storngly enough about to hire and immediately pay for training

 

[Freight Dog]

So Publishers, do you require your applicants to pay for their own training?

 

[siucavflight]

I say suck it up for a year. The cost of training you in three airplanes would cost you over $50,000 if you were to pay for this yourself. Go to training, work hard, get typed, get 1 year of experience under your belt.

Here is the thing, the training woudl not have cost him anything he gave me the book, told me to study and fly a lot of what he was claiming to be "91" trips with him and then send me to the FSDO in New york for a check ride, so the cost to him would have been minimal.

 

[T-1GUY]

Wow,

Sounds like a cheap bastard.... That said, I say Runaway!!!!

 

[G100driver]

Here is the thing, the training woudl not have cost him anything he gave me the book, told me to study and fly a lot of what he was claiming to be "91" trips with him and then send me to the FSDO in New york for a check ride, so the cost to him would have been minimal.

Run Forrest ... RUN!!!!!!

This is NOT the way to train pilots.

This owner has a serious moral delima. Not only is he cheating you, but almost or perhaps more importantly, he is cheating his clients.

Somehow, this practice of inhouse training must be put to an end. It is un-ethical.