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Power-Off Landings

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Joshrk22

Sierra Hotel
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Posts
230
Last night, second lesson, I did stalls and landings. My instructor taught me to do power-off landings. Is this the norm? I thought you learned partial power landings first. I have a lesson again tomorrow and Sunday.

P.S. They were also no flap landings. He said that we should learn no flap landings first so it will make the flap landings easy.
 
What kind of airplane are you using? Most of the time we want no power being developed during the landing flare to decrease landing distance. I teach my students to land with no flaps, partial flaps and full flaps. I teach full flaps first since they are easier and it's easier for my students to learn. But that's just my 0.02. But to answer your question, in most trainers no power/thrust is used.
 
Yeah, Some Instructors will teach you power off landings in the begining also.
My Instructor did this to me. Practicing power off landings help perfect the skill just incase of an engine failure....I think. Right now, I'm practicing crosswimd take-offs and slip landings...Fun, challenging and akward feeling all rolled up in ball of dough.
 
Folks If Your Flying A Sel Aircraft, Please Learn The Right Way. Power Off Is The Correct Way, Just Look At The Faa Handbook. I Was Always Reminded Of That Big Flight School Across The Field, When They Gear Up There Cutlass, Why You Ask, B/c They Were Taught Partial Power Landings. So In The Flare, Two Things Happened, The Gear Horn Went Off, And The Plane Went Skidding Down The Runway!!!!!
 
Folks If Your Flying A Sel Aircraft, Please Learn The Right Way. Power Off Is The Correct Way, Just Look At The Faa Handbook. I Was Always Reminded Of That Big Flight School Across The Field, When They Gear Up There Cutlass, Why You Ask, B/c They Were Taught Partial Power Landings. So In The Flare, Two Things Happened, The Gear Horn Went Off, And The Plane Went Skidding Down The Runway!!!!!
In order to head off some confusion...Josh, where exactly is your instructor having you reduce power to idle?

Fly safe!

David
 
Every landing is different. Circumstances change. One should be taught to land with and without power. Yesterday I flew a fast approach that required power to touchdown followed by a lot of reverse. That was a power on approach. Other times, the power may be pulled to idle crossing the fence, other times not.

One uses what one needs, when one needs it.

Learning approaches and landings without power is necessary not only for routine operations, but for emergencies.

Landing with power is often advisable or necessary. Some aircrft land in the same attitude and configuration as they approach. The throttle or power levers may be smoothly closed in a flare, or no flare may be required and the power maintained until the mains are on the ground.

Use what's needed, where needed. Absolutes are poor airmanship in many cases. As for landing gear...that's strictly a pilot failure. Don't rely upon habit. Don't rely upon gear warning. Don't rely upon the concept that the gear ought to be down because you always put it down at a certain point. Consistancy is fine, but use a checklist, don't skip items, and do your ob in the cockpit. Don't blame failure to extend the gear on a partial power landing. You fail to put the gear down...it's all you.
 
My CFI is having me reduce power abeam the numbers and then flying no-power through the base and final. He said I should keep the speed at 70 kts and that will give me the proper descent. I fly 70 all the way to about 1 foot off the runway and hold it 'till the elevator is fully deflected and the plane stalls.
 
How much dual given does your CFI have? He doesn't sound like the best CFI, but give him a chance. Everyone has there own way of teaching someone how to land, and most of them work.
 
My CFI is having me reduce power abeam the numbers and then flying no-power through the base and final. He said I should keep the speed at 70 kts and that will give me the proper descent. I fly 70 all the way to about 1 foot off the runway and hold it 'till the elevator is fully deflected and the plane stalls.
Well, that's probably as close to the way I started teaching landings as you can get...I started teaching in gliders, and my students could pull half spoilers abeam the touchdown point and make a spot landing without moving the spoilers at all. Prior to solo, I might add...it's amazing what you can teach somebody who doesn't know any better ;)

I would consider it a good "building block" training technique...get the landings figured out, then add power to think about, then add flaps (or vise-versa).

Fly safe!

David
 
How much dual given does your CFI have? He doesn't sound like the best CFI, but give him a chance. Everyone has there own way of teaching someone how to land, and most of them work.

Not sure how much dual he has, but he has about 3,000 hours. He has me starting my turn to base abeam the numbers, so I fly really high over the threshold and land halfway down the runway. We are at FNT, so I don't know if he wants me landing at the crossing of 18/36 because that's where he's telling me to aim for. I would think he'd want me landing red over white, not white over white.
 
JOSH

Your CFI is not doing anything "wrong" by teaching you this. A good instructor I might add will teach you power off landings, powered landings, flap, no flap, door open, stuck rudder peddle, stuck throttle, etc etc

In addition, I used to cover up the airspeed, RPM, even altitude indicators, and have my students fly the patterns and conduct touch and go's by "feel" versus by constantly looking at dials and needles. Some day the RPM gage will fail and you don't need to panic and stall the airplane on base leg when that happens (yes, it has happened...).

We used to have a 6000 foot runway at our airport, and with towers permission, I would fail the power at mid-field just to de-program the student that you don't need to wait till "abeam the numbers" each and every time if you need to land due to emergency. If you turn base at midfield on a 6000 foot runway, you now have a 3000 foot runway to land on. Say your engine failed, passenger had a heart attack, etc etc.

The job of the instructor is to prepare you to fly safely, and exceed the PTS Standards. This includes scenarios above and beyond the "ok, your flap motor is not working"

On that note, if you learn to land from day-1 without using flaps, you learn to be "in touch" with the airplane much sooner than if you use flaps every time and then 10 hours later starting learning no-flaps. If you don't use flaps and then "get to use them" after 10 hours, you will be like "now this is REALLY easy"

In addition, I would not give my students target airspeeds while learning the basics. "Hold 70 knots, come on kid" is overwhelming. I taught outside visual references and power settings (both via RPM gage and by listening) and told them to "make it happen" (safe landings) for the first 5 hours. Once they themselves got a gameplan for landings that worked, I would fine-tune it with airspeed and specifics. But teaching airspeed and hard-in-stone power settings (abeam the numbers, power off kid! always! 70 knots! Not 65, not 75! Get it together!) interferes with learning, as the student is trying to force square pegs into round holes when he needs to figure it out on his own.

Once the student gets the genereal feel and gist of the landings on his own, I bring in the airspeed and other points.

Just me, thats how I teach. Every CFI has a different method.

etc etc

The bulk of MY private pilot lessons was taught by a 70 year old crop duster who earned his living flying Ag-Cats at 25 feet in West Texas.

I am not a Riddle Grad so maybe I have been flying wrong the the last 17 years.

Who knows.
 
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Thanks Satpak! He said he's not training to the PP PTS standards, but the Comm PTS. Instead of being able to read and react, anticipate before things happen.
 
Try Not To Get Info From Alot Of Different People At First. Theres Going To Be A Lot Of Garbage People Will Try To Teach, And Also A Lot Of Good, But At This Stage In Your Flight Training, No Offense, No Cant Possibly Choose.....it Comes, Trust Me. Power Off Is The Best Appr. Until You Grad. To Bigger Planes.
 
An approach without flaps lets you fly a constant attitude, which gives you a constant airspeed, which gives you a constant glide angle (wind notwithstanding). At the early stage, this is important because it lets the student judge the glide better and predict where the plane will go, and build up a base of consistency from which the he can judge a base turn and an aimpoint.

I don't have any students learning in any plane with flaps yet, but when I do I'll probably not use them in the beginning.

Power off approaches let you practice for an engine failure for every landing, as opposed to doing a few of them in training and re-learning how the plane flies when the fan quits for real.
 
An approach without flaps lets you fly a constant attitude, which gives you a constant airspeed, which gives you a constant glide angle (wind notwithstanding).

An approach with flaps does the same thing.
 
Power Off Is The Best Appr. Until You Grad. To Bigger Planes.

Giving your post the benifit of the doubt and assuming you aren't flame-bait, teaching all power off approaches all the way down, all the time, is poor airmanship, and not good for engines. Especially if the landings are conducted as touch and go, or go-arounds are performed, in piston engine powered airplanes.

You type these replies, and really hold an ATP?
 
To prevent shock cooling my instructor would sometimes advance the throttle a few hundred RPMs and then reduce it to idle again. I don't think that could be bad for the engine, can it? I could see if we idled all the way from the downwind.
 
Josh,

Training airplanes take a lot of abuse, and rightfully so. Abuse to the engine is one of those things. Power off descents in the pattern or to emergency landings are part of training, and should be a very big part of training. Every landing power off, and every approach power off, however is not a good idea, and isn't good for the engine.

If you do a power off approach and landing the landing should be made full stop with a taxi back to allow for the engine temps to normalize (more uniform throughout engine), rather than doing a touch and go with a sudden power-up, or a go-around/balked landing.

Shock cooling is a mythiogical, misunderstood topic. Many argue that it hangs over you, waiting to do you in. Others argue that it doesn't exist. Truth is that thermal damage to engines does exist both high and low. Rapid changes do cause cracking, most notably on the cylinder head between the spark plug holes, and can lead in some engines to seizing, or even problems such as detonation, preignition, etc, when unburned fuel and fuel byproducts remain in the cylinder.

Smooth engine operation is a good key to long engine life, and your long life, too. Always try to treat the engine and the airplane as though your life depends upon it. Because it does.

In training, we do see more wear and tear on the airplanes. We're experiencing things in the training environment that we may not do in the real world of flying on a regular basis, or ever. That's the nature of training. These events prepare us for emegencies, form the basic building blocks of our understanding, and develop habits and wisdom for our future longevity in the industry.

Unfortunately, bad habits can also be taught. Among them I see frequently are the mentality that engine failures magically always occur near a runway. Or that only full flap or no flap landings should be taught, or that pitch controls power and that whole debate, or that ground effect is a "cushion of air beneath the wing." I see great misunderstandings coming out of improper training regarding the use of carburetor heat, looking for traffic, proper use of the radio, engine operation and theory, and a very common use of idle power from abeam the numbers to landing a standard method of approach.

Each instructor teaches differently, and that's quite okay. You'll find that by trying different instructors you may gain a great deal of insight that you may have missed with just one. I often found when I was teaching full time that when I hit an impasse with a student, when the student was on a plateau and not learning or progressing, having the student fly with a different instructor often broke that impasse. Other instructors would do the same with me, and it was often the insight provided by a fresh pespective that made the difference.

Where you need to be careful is absolutes. When you hear people telling you to always make power off approaches or landings, that should throw up a red flag, just as the idea that one should always make partial flap landings in a crosswind should throw up a red flag. You'll find that the folks making these statements are not out to cause harm, but operating within their own safety zone based on limited experience in a particular area...and you'll find that there's usually more to the subject that you can learn. More to benifit you, and choices available in the cockpit than those sets of absolute define.

In the air, there's often more than one way to skin a cat. Power off approaches and landings as a general practice are bad form, in many aircraft. Fly a turbine airplane and that changes...power off doesn't hurt anything, most of the time. But a piston powered airplane, especially a geared piston powered airplane, a power on approach followed by whatever power is necessary to land under given conditions, is more typical. Again, the circumstances and the airplane, and what you're trying to accomplish, dictate what you use, when, and where. Good luck!
 
An approach with flaps does the same thing.

Well... true if you use a constant setting. But I should have qualified that I was referring to the commonly taught (at least here) method of adding a notch of flaps for each leg.
 
Vnugget,

I agree; I found that for the initial presolo training, I taught one airspeed for climb, approach and landing, and one power setting for landing, along with a single flap setting. As soon as the student became comfortable with that, we'd expand in each area, one step at a time. If an airplane had a best rate climb of say, 65 knots then the same speed roughly equated to the approach and landing speed. It was a good place to start.

Changing configuration (eg, adding flaps) during the approach phase is fine, but I feel it's best taught in stages after the student has learned basic handling of the airplane. Walk before running, that sort of thing.

I temper that by trying to integrate instruments into training right out the door, but heavily emphasize external cues, too. While this appears to add complexity to the learning experience, I think it helps clarify what the student is experiencing. When I introduce flaps and other features, the student has developed a sense of where to look, and what he or she is seeing when they look there, and can quickly correlate adding flaps at a given altitude or airspeed with the feel of the airplane, trim, position relative to the runway, etc.

I know others who introduce it right off the bat, and that's fine, too. Really it comes down to what the student needs; some need to progress faster or differently than others, and that's perfectly fine. I've never beleived in preaching a syllabus, but rather instead teaching a student. I think there's a difference.
 
Just my 2 cents worth. I have about 3000 dual given in airplanes, and another 2000 DG in sims from AST300s to the CRJ. Take my opinion for what it costs...
I find it helps alot to make sure they do slow flight really well before doing landings. I have them do slow flight descents toward the runway (no particular preference on flaps settings but usually go with 10 at first since they see a little of the effect without it being too much) closer and closer until it turns into a landing.
So far as power on or power off, it depends on the plane you fly. Light singles, as the FAA says, should be power off. Twins power on until nearly landed. This is especially true with higher flap settings because once you get to bigger planes, you are managing energy more than flying a plane. IOW, fly the plane you are in.
I think if you fly a Bonanza for example, that either method will work fine. However, initial students need to be able to learn power offs EARLY so that should they ever be alone with no engine....its just old hat to them.
Also, the "power off" term is really undefined. I mean, WHERE does the power off segment begin? For me, once the runway is made, its power idle. Properly executed I found it to be around 100-200 feetish. (Except engine failure training of course). I find that in the standard 152 and 172 (olders) that 1500 rpm, and one step of flap each leg with 80 DW, 70 base and 60 final will work well most of the time. In the 152 with the 110HP engine or the newer 172s that taking about 200 RPM less will work fair.
Anyways, keep in mind that the way the landing turns out is the result of how well the pattern was done.
 
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The bulk of MY private pilot lessons was taught by a 70 year old crop duster who earned his living flying Ag-Cats at 25 feet in West Texas.
[/quote]

When Cropdusting in West Texas, 25 feet is enroute altitude, not working altitude over the targeted field.
 
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The bulk of MY private pilot lessons was taught by a 70 year old crop duster who earned his living flying Ag-Cats at 25 feet in West Texas.

When Cropdusting in West Texas, 25 feet is enroute altitude, not working altitude over the targeted field.[/quote]

:p :) :laugh:
 
When I was eighteen and cropdusting, I didn't know any better...I remember one day running out of chemical, and my boss was still working the field. He said climb up 500' and wait for him, and we'd head back together. At the time, the idea of climbing that high scared the tar out of me. Seems funny looking back on it, but that was nosebleed altitude back then.
 
Avbug or anyone else with radial experience,

Sorry for the slight threadjack, but what exactly is it that makes radials more susceptible to shock cooling? Is it simlply the amount of air flow directly over the cylinders or is it just an old pilots tale?
 
When I was eighteen and cropdusting, I didn't know any better...I remember one day running out of chemical, and my boss was still working the field. He said climb up 500' and wait for him, and we'd head back together. At the time, the idea of climbing that high scared the tar out of me. Seems funny looking back on it, but that was nosebleed altitude back then.

I remember that feeling when I was young and bulletproof too, Avbug. At the end of a spray season in North Carolina, we used to ferry Stearmans back to home base in Florida. After a summer spent over cotten and tobacco and under wires, climbing to 2000 agl for the flight south felt like being on the edge of space.
 
I've never heard of radials being more susceptable to shock cooling...but from a thermal point of view, radial engines have a lot more area generally exposed to the slipstream than a horizontally opposed or inline engines do. That's assuming a single row radial. When you're discussing twin row or four row radials (such as the R-4360), rear rows have major heating issues in that they don't change much with the power back, but don't get cooled much, either. (They also catch fire a lot, too).

In a radial arrangement, the lower cylinders are going to be operating cooler than the upper in a no-wind situation,such as on the ground, when heat rises. This is largely mitigated by the airflow from the propeller, and becomes effective upon shutdown. In flight, with airflow through the engine temperature changes can have a more pronounced effect overall on the entire engine because of the large frontal surface area. Some radials are tightly cowled and have relatively little airflow over the engine, whereas others are exposed to the airflow with nothing around them.

Think about the shock caused by rain...engines don't tend to crack when operating in the rain, yet we hear about cracking when the power is pulled back. Many are quick to point out this inconsistance in "shock cooling" theory, or the fact that upon shutdown engine temperature climbs in some parts of the engine while decreases in others, causing even more thermal differences. Or start-up...the engine warms quickly; this is a big thermal change that's often greater than the changes that occur with the power pulled back on a descent.

Radial engines, like some flat engines, are mostly geared engines. Geared on both sides, in most cases, with the front end driving the propeller and the back end driving an accessory section and supercharger. Windmilling (reduced power when the slipstream is driving the propeller and not the engine driving the prop) can be damaging, though this is also a hotly contested issue (see John Deaken from Avweb, who discusses this at length in his mythbusting series). I'm from the crowd that believes one should not put the engine in a position of having the slipstream drive the prop, and I do disagree with Deaken, though I respect his viewpoint.

Making a long story of a short, there's a lot more metal out there, exposed to a lot more airflow, in a radial engine, with a lot more disparity in thermal variance from some parts to others. Add to that the fact that most radials out there are older engines, often with cylinders that have been re-worked and re-worked, the engines have been often subject to a lot more abuse (or parts of them have) than what you may be flying now.

Shock cooling is only part of the issue with proper engine operation in a radial...one of many. But the principles are the same. I think a radial demands a little more respect. They're tough engines, but more parts and more potential for problems are present. If you think about the pontential for one single bad sparkplug on your Cessna 172 during a takeoff, think about 112 or 224 sparkplugs out there, each with it's own potential to go wrong...and that's just one small part of the engine. General engine operation practice and theory, and proper airmanship, demands that pilots of air cooled engines, regardless of w(h)eather they're inline, flat, or radially arranged, use judicious application of airflow and cooling during routine operation.
 

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