Zero Tolerance for Deviations?

cjdriver

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I heard that ATC has been instructed within the last 30-60 days that no tolerance of deviations will be allowed; meaning any deviation must be reported. For instance, any altitude bust regardless of loss of separation. Is this true? If so, would a deviating pilot be told they were being violated? I also heard the FSDO's are overwhelmed by this new policy.
 

say again

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There has to be a tolerance. Nothing is perfect up there, ie. turbulence, wake t, etc. This is stuff pilots can't control. I've never heard of this, but that doesn't mean it's not out there.
 

Lrjtcaptain

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I was not given said briefing. Rumors Rumors Rumors. We aren't cops. Let FSDO bust you. Most of us controllers could care less as long as safety was not an issue.
 

pilot125

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I also continue to hear this will "new policy" about enforcing pilot deviations. So when I inadvertantly bust my altitude (by lets say 400'), BAM, I get violated--even if I'm the only one in the sky (or sector). Think that's a bunch of BS!

So what happens when a controller gives me a descent and calls me by the wrong call sign? Do I violate him/her? How is that suppose to go down? Just don't understand, we all make mistakes. Some call for a violation, some don't.
 

satpak77

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in 18 years of professional flying or aviation industry experience, 99% of the controllers could care less unless you bent metal, made headlines, or did something that caused someone ELSE to hear about it (another pilot files a complaint, etc)

I think even at the FSDO level things are much more "moderated" than they were years ago.
 

Flyin2low

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I've been using the ATC system for 30 years. I just got my 1st Letter of Warning for a pilot (NAV) deviation, last week.

Our FSDO claims that they are processing 2 per week. Mine happened in the ATL center airspace.
 

Coool Hand Luke

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I heard that ATC has been instructed within the last 30-60 days that no tolerance of deviations will be allowed; meaning any deviation must be reported. For instance, any altitude bust regardless of loss of separation. Is this true? If so, would a deviating pilot be told they were being violated? I also heard the FSDO's are overwhelmed by this new policy.
I head the same thing from a friend. His friend found out about this new policy the hard way. DFW TRACON, which has almost always been cool (my 10+ years of being a regular customer anyway). Maybe there is something to this? Keep the head on a swivel out there y'all.
 

rnobson

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Maybe every aircraft needs to file a block altitude
 

say again

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Maybe every aircraft needs to file a block altitude
haha, a quick solution to a ridiculous situation.

In all seriousness, have people been deviating from alts, hdgs that drastically that they need to implement this?? seems kind of over-the-top, but then again, this is the FAA
 

~~~^~~~

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What about the situation out in DFW where Supervisors were filing pilot deviation reports when it was the Controllers' mistake?

Admittedly, task saturated pilots coming up on 12 to 16 hours on duty make more deviations than controllers, but this writing every little thing up can cut both ways.

And then you throw the new SIDS and STARS into the mix with ambiguous phraseology that has not been completely worked out when it comes to speed changes.

Mutual cooperation & adequate staffing works the best.
 
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waveflyer

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it's a real easy answer guys-- just don't ever f--- up. simple.
~~~^~~~ i like the signature!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
;)
 

Toobdrvr

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True story:

A few years back:

ATC: "XXX, cross R16L, monitor ground"

ME: "XXX crossing 16L"

ME: "XXX clear 16L taxi to ramp"

ATC: "XXX you were instructed to MONITOR ground.
Do you know what MONITOR means? It means I call you, not you calling me!"

Me: "Sorry 'bout that...Hey, aren't you the controller who cleared me to cross a runway SWA was landing on least week?"

pause

ATC: "XXX taxi to the ramp"...

Me: "Good night, sir!"
 

samdog

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What about being off of assigned speed? If you were assigned speed 250 (at 14,000 ft) at a certain fix, but forgot somehow, would this be reported? In this case, the controller noticed that we were closing in on the a/c in front of us, and reminded us of the assigned speed (which we quickly reduced to). It was an honest mistake, but I wanted some atc input to see how this could end up. Thanks.
 

Amish RakeFight

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I've been using the ATC system for 30 years. I just got my 1st Letter of Warning for a pilot (NAV) deviation, last week.
What kind of deviation was this. No need to be too detailed if it'll jeopardize your situation or identity somehow. But what was the exact nature in general terms. Was this due to the aforementioned tolerance issue?



Some guidelines to follow:
FAA Enforcement

Incident

Immediately following an incident, a pilot has a natural tendency to want to tell everyone everything about what just happened. Overcome this tendency.

If the incident involved ATC, the controller may give the pilot a phone number to call after the flight. The pilot is not required to make that call. It is a difficult judgment decision to make, because a call can stop an enforcement action, but not all of them. If the incident involved other traffic, or a violation of restricted airspace, it is unlikely that a phone call by the pilot will stop an enforcement action.

The first thing to do following an incident is to determine whether or not what happened was an "incident" or "accident" within the meaning of Part 830 of the rules of the National Transportation Safety Board.

The next thing is to determine if a NASA form is appropriate. (see BCA article) (download NASA ARC Form 227 in pdf format).

Letter of Investigation

If the FAA begins an investigation following an incident, the investigating inspector will generally send out a form letter, outlining in very general terms the allegations and warning the recipient that if he or she does not respond within 10 days, our report will be processed without the benefit of your comments.

Any response to this letter will be treated as a signed confession. The FARs do not require a response to the letter. A pilot should respond if he or she has clear and convincing evidence that no violation occurred. If the pilot simply wants to tell mitigating circumstances behind the incident, it may be wiser to wait for the informal conference described below.

Enforcement/ Administrative Action/ Re-Examination/ Case Dropped

Generally speaking, the FAA will choose to take enforcement action (certificate suspension or revocation) following a clear violation of the FARs. If it turns out that the witness who contacted the FAA to report a violation was either misinformed or lying, the case will be dropped. If the violation was minor, unintentional, and committed by a well-meaning but inexperienced pilot, the FAA may choose to go with administrative action in the form of a warning letter or a letter of correction. The letter of correction is typically issued following remedial training of the pilot. A warning letter or letter of correction is kept in the pilot's file for two years.

Re-examination is not an enforcement action. The FAA has the authority to re-examine any airman at any time, if they have "reasonable cause." Generally, any type of accident is a "reasonable cause" for re-examining the pilot(s) involved. Pilots should promptly cooperate with a request for re-examination. A pilot may schedule the re-examination so that he or she will have adequate time to train with an instructor prior to the re-examination. Successful completion of a re-examination does not prevent later enforcement action. If the re-examination is administered by the inspector who is investigating the incident or accident that lead to the re-exam, the pilot should be careful about discussing the facts of the incident or accident.

Notice of Proposed Certificate Action or Civil Penalty

When a pilot receives a Notice of Proposed Certificate Action or Civil Penalty ("Notice"), the pilot will also receive a list of options. The pilot can simply turn in his or her certificate or pay the fee. The pilot can write a letter of explanation. The pilot can request an informal conference. Of all the options offered, the informal conference is the best option. What the FAA fails to mention among these options is the right, under the Freedom of Information Act, to request a copy of the FAA's Enforcement Investigative Report ("EIR"). The best strategy for dealing with potential enforcement is to request the EIR prior to attending the informal conference.

Informal Conference

The best strategy for dealing with potential enforcement is to request the EIR prior to attending the informal conference. Then the pilot will know what the FAA knows, but the FAA will not necessarily know all that the pilot knows. The purpose of the informal conference is to arrive at a settlement of the case. Pilots can (and should) have an attorney for this conference. Although there will be no court reporter, and the FAA does encourage an informal discussion, pilots should be aware that, if they change their version of the facts at a hearing later, the FAA attorney will be allowed, during cross examination, to point out that the pilot told a different story at the informal conference.

Order of Suspension, Revocation or Civil Penalty/Appeal

If a pilot receives an Order, the Order is effective unless a timely appeal is filed. If the Order is an Emergency Order, then the Order is immediately effective. IF YOU RECEIVE AN EMERGENCY ORDER, CONTACT AN AVIATION ATTORNEY IMMEDIATELY. YOU MUST FILE THE FIRST MOTION WITHIN 48 HOURS OF RECEIPT OF THE ORDER.

If the Order is not an Emergency order, then simply filing a proper appeal will "stay" the effectiveness of the Order. This means that you can keep flying while the appeal is in process.

Complaint/Answer

Once an appeal has been filed, the FAA will file the "complaint", which in most cases, will simply be the Notice with a cover letter stating the Notice will serve as the Complaint. AN ANSWER MUST BE FILED. The Answer must address each allegation, and state any affirmative defenses.

Hearing Before Administrative Law Judge

This is THE most important step in the appeal process. This is the one and only time in the appeal process when the pilot and the FAA will have an opportunity to present testimony and "have their day in court." This is where the facts of the matter will be established. Pilots can (and should) have an attorney for this hearing.

Appeal to the Full Board

If either the pilot or the FAA (or both) is unsatisfied with the decision of the Administrative Law Judge, they may appeal the decision to the full Board. Generally speaking, these appeals are to be based on the Judge's application of the law. There will be no additional hearing, the Board will rule based on the briefs filed by the parties.

Appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals

If either party is dissatisfied with the results of an appeal to the full Board, then they may file an appeal with the applicable US. Court of Appeals. These appeals are also done primarily through briefs, although the Court may allow oral argument following the filing of the briefs. Oral argument simply gives the judges an opportunity to discuss the briefs with the attorneys. It is not an opportunity for testimony or new evidence. The Court of Appeals can only overturn the NTSB if the Court finds that the NTSB's decision was arbitrary or capricious.
 

Flyin2low

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What kind of deviation was this. No need to be too detailed if it'll jeopardize your situation or identity somehow. But what was the exact nature in general terms. Was this due to the aforementioned tolerance issue?
It was a case of flying a filed route versus the cleared route where one of the fixes was removed by ATC during processing and we didn't catch it. The controller redirected us after 4 miles off their expected routing. The investigating inspector said that they are using a computer to track flights accuracy. If the computer 'flags" you, then the controller is obligated to turn you in. This happened in ATL center airspace. I believe it was a supervisor who turned us in (trying to set an example for his subordinates). At least that was the story in June 08. The FAA has since rescinded the Warning but said it will stay in their system for 2 years anyways.
 

myrealnameis

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Trust me the number of "reported" deviations is up dramaticly. Career Pilots are now caught in the middle of a pissing match between the FAA and NATCA.
 

cjdriver

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Trust me the number of "reported" deviations is up dramaticly. Career Pilots are now caught in the middle of a pissing match between the FAA and NATCA.
Can you elaborate on that? Is the FAA trying to make life hard on NATCA, and subsequently pro pilots?
 

myrealnameis

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Can you elaborate on that? Is the FAA trying to make life hard on NATCA, and subsequently pro pilots?
I would say Yes, and the Controllers are pushing back.
Its no secret that the FAA and Air Traffic Controllers Union are at odds over contract , work rules and staffing levels. One tool in the arsenal is to completely flood the FAA with a laundry list of aircraft deviations that they have to follow up on. Leverage we are.
 
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