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You Must Hear Both Sides

EnFuego

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Posts
125
Those of you who were coerced into signing a card while in training, do you want to live with that fear permanently? Vote IBT Airline Division and you will not have to stand alone.
 

FLFlyer1

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2017
Posts
11
Total Time
8700
21% attrition and counting. More leaving every day. Blacklisting 2-300 FJ pilots would be a rounding error in their hiring needs.

And the market has spoken. No one shows up for class, or if they do they are woefully under the requirements FJ promised the owners all pilots would meet.

Every major airline union has written in on the matter and you’re now making headlines in the daily ALPA updates. But sure, tell yourself they aren’t watching if it makes you feel better.

Lastly, you know this election will be a squeaker either way or else a union busting firm wouldn’t be advising the decert group. They’re certainly not doing it for free either. So the premise that every pilot you talk to on the road wants the union gone is completely false. It would be beyond your wildest dreams to win 60-40. So the truth is that about half the pilots aren’t buying it.

Here’s a tip. Try honesty. Complete, utter and brutal honesty. I just called out two massive lies in this post before breakfast.

JB- its been awhile. I’d say years. You make some interesting points. But I keep seeing all of this information and frankly where does it come from? How are we getting accessto the actual numbers of attrition etc? Frankly I just want what’s true- wherever that comes from. And I think we all deserve that
 

Lumpsum

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Posts
33
Lumpy, you’ve been watching too many X-Files episodes. The truth is this management team are all liars, plain and simple. These are the same people all the decerters want to entrust the conditions of all of our livelihoods. Maybe Scully and Mulder will swoop in and save the day. Maybe Kenn is actually an alien. :)

Do you really think he is an alien?
 

DirtyBeech

The Last Starfighter
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Posts
782
Total Time
Enough
JB- its been awhile. I’d say years. You make some interesting points. But I keep seeing all of this information and frankly where does it come from? How are we getting accessto the actual numbers of attrition etc? Frankly I just want what’s true- wherever that comes from. And I think we all deserve that

I don’t know who JB is, but I’m not him. A comparison of the original merged seniority list to today’s list minus any new hires tells you how many original employees have left.

That number has probably shifted from the 21% of a few months ago. It’s also still in the ballpark. 1/5 of the original group has left the premises.
 

airman2105

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Posts
56
Total Time
17000h
Mr Lumpy, this is very professionally put together and I think people in high places have got their heads together to put fear and doubt in everyones mind. I have a good idea where this message is coming from and would like to point out the need of the IBT1108. Pilots need a referee in the game to see fair play even though players on both sides can be good at their game. A move by a player could be a foul and the player himself may not see it. Even the best intentions of management may not agree with the work force so the referee steps in. The flight attendants who were pushed out did not have anyone representing them so look where they are today. REPRESENTATION IS NEEDED. Think long and hard about your future.
 

Lumpsum

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Posts
33
Mr Lumpy, this is very professionally put together and I think people in high places have got their heads together to put fear and doubt in everyones mind. I have a good idea where this message is coming from and would like to point out the need of the IBT1108. Pilots need a referee in the game to see fair play even though players on both sides can be good at their game. A move by a player could be a foul and the player himself may not see it. Even the best intentions of management may not agree with the work force so the referee steps in. The flight attendants who were pushed out did not have anyone representing them so look where they are today. REPRESENTATION IS NEEDED. Think long and hard about your future.



Well thank you "Mr. Airy". I had to be careful how I post because someone else gave me a real hard time about making a mistake in choosing the wrong word. He got really mad at me about it.
I agree about "Higher-ups" scaring pilots. Higher-ups in the Teamsters have been using nothing but fear to try to intimidate voters. Kind of scummy if you ask me,
As for the origin of my posts..... Just a regular ole line pilot.
I also agree that a "Referee" is nice to have, but not a crooked one. Not one who makes calls for others and not for who's in the game playing. Not a Ref that holds a hidden agenda and does not listen to the players when they have a concern about a questionable call.
KR seems to be sincere and genuine is his latest video that was texted to us. I trust him more than I trust the Teamsters. Plain & simple. I believe him more than I believe the Teamsters.
I'm a practical man and I have thought about this "long & hard" as you said.
The particular teamsters involved with over-seeing this Local do not have the pilots' best interest at heart. That has been obvious for awhile.
The pilots that choose to leave, I wish them good luck. Those of us who choose to stay have every right to want what's best for our future here.
There are two opposing choices and the NMB election process is the best way to come to the most favored decision. What else needs to be said about that?
 

imacdog

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Posts
4,196
Total Time
5000
Well thank you "Mr. Airy". I had to be careful how I post because someone else gave me a real hard time about making a mistake in choosing the wrong word. He got really mad at me about it.
I agree about "Higher-ups" scaring pilots. Higher-ups in the Teamsters have been using nothing but fear to try to intimidate voters. Kind of scummy if you ask me,
As for the origin of my posts..... Just a regular ole line pilot.
I also agree that a "Referee" is nice to have, but not a crooked one. Not one who makes calls for others and not for who's in the game playing. Not a Ref that holds a hidden agenda and does not listen to the players when they have a concern about a questionable call.
KR seems to be sincere and genuine is his latest video that was texted to us. I trust him more than I trust the Teamsters. Plain & simple. I believe him more than I believe the Teamsters.
I'm a practical man and I have thought about this "long & hard" as you said.
The particular teamsters involved with over-seeing this Local do not have the pilots' best interest at heart. That has been obvious for awhile.
The pilots that choose to leave, I wish them good luck. Those of us who choose to stay have every right to want what's best for our future here.
There are two opposing choices and the NMB election process is the best way to come to the most favored decision. What else needs to be said about that?

Why is it so easy to pick the paid union busters out of the crowd...........
 

Bjtdrvr

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Posts
180
Total Time
10000
It doesn't matter which Teamster was leading us they wouldn't trust him. It doesn't matter if it was ALPA as a union they still would be doing this and the verbiage would be the same. Why? Because KR at one time said he would shut down FO if a union was voted in. That is a quote by the way. You guys are just playing to his music.
 

Lumpsum

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Posts
33
Glory said: "Lumpy, you wouldn't be that outspoken unless you are currently being paid off."









Now why would you say that? There are many posters here that enjoy spewing S#1T out of their mouths without one shred of fact.
 
Last edited:

airman2105

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Posts
56
Total Time
17000h
We Mr Lumpy, you talk about a crooked referee with his own agenda....you don't talk about the crooked CEO with his own agenda.
He said off the bat that we were so good he would not change anything: 1. The way we dispatched changed 2. Maintenance changed to iwog 3. 50 office employees let go 4. Pilot seniority in doubt 5. Splitting the pilot group 6. FA's let go. I could go on but there is enough here to write a book.
Who is the crooked one here? If you claim to be a mere line pilot.....be in the middle and tell me straight that you don't need a union.
 

Lumpsum

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Posts
33
We Mr Lumpy, you talk about a crooked referee with his own agenda....you don't talk about the crooked CEO with his own agenda.
He said off the bat that we were so good he would not change anything: 1. The way we dispatched changed 2. Maintenance changed to iwog 3. 50 office employees let go 4. Pilot seniority in doubt 5. Splitting the pilot group 6. FA's let go. I could go on but there is enough here to write a book.
Who is the crooked one here? If you claim to be a mere line pilot.....be in the middle and tell me straight that you don't need a union.

Mr. Airy, I DON'T NEED THIS GD, POS, WORTHLESS TEAMSTER UNION!!!!!
 

Bjtdrvr

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Posts
180
Total Time
10000
More from KR treatment of Citation Air pilots:

But even getting to that point would be a long shot. Remember what would have to happen:



a. Citation Air Pilots would have to find representation to sue.

b. They would have to fund a lawsuit with a very uncertain outcome.

c. They would have the Teamsters, Flight Options Management and Flight

Options pilots opposed to their claim. Our unified defense would be that putting 85 people to work was the right thing to do as opposed to the inevitable loss of all the jobs.

d. They would have to be successful in their very unlikely claim that McCaskill Bond applies.

e. They would have to be willing to come back to employment to claim their positions.

- - - Updated - - -

That is why a union is necessary

- - - Updated - - -

More from KR:

The following Q & A are from Kenn’s sworn deposition taken in 2003 during the federal litigation
that Thomas Bowden, William Brunet, Thomas Jeter, Eric Miller, William Tumlin and David Yeager
filed against Flight Options over their illegal termination during that merger. These are Kenn’s
recorded answers to the Teamster attorney that was examining him:
Q. What do you recall—did you speak with Mr. Brunet in the indoc?
Kenn. Probably.
Q. Do you have a specific recollection of speaking to him?
Kenn. I don’t have a specific recollection of what he asked or didn’t ask at indoc.
Q. What do you recall about Mr. Brunet in indoc?
Kenn. Body language.
Q. What body language?
Kenn. Well, it’s body language because it’s hard to describe, but I think after doing as many
indoc classes as I’ve done and, you know, clearly they number in the hundreds, I would
often—you could often tell, from looking at someone, whether they were engaged, whether
they were a doubting Thomas, you know, or whether they were still trying to decide what
they really believed. Mr. Brunet was one of those people that you could just tell from his
body language, didn’t believe anything that was being said.

- - - Updated - - -

Q. And how did you respond to your interpretation of his body language?
Kenn. Well, this would happen often at indocs, there were many indoc classes I would leave and
I would tell Mr. Sullivan or Mr. Herzberg or Mr. Salata, that I don’t think this person
should be here. And I can tell you that probably there were ten or twelve people a year
who I would pick out of indoc who I’d say, you know, rescind their employment.
Q. Based on body language?
Kenn. Absolutely.
Kenn had Brunet fired for “bad body language.” BAD BODY LANGUAGE!!!
Q. Do you recall anything regarding the termination of Mr. Tumlin?
Kenn. No.
Q. Mr. Jeter?
Kenn. I remember a discussion about Mr. Jeter’s attitude.
Q. With whom?
Kenn. Well, it was either with—I don’t remember with whom it was, probably Mr. Sullivan and
Mr. Salata.
Q. Do you recall what was said regarding Mr. Jeter?
Kenn. My conversation with Mr. Jeter on the first of January was the first kind of indication I
had that perhaps he wasn’t someone who was going to embrace the culture.
A bit later in the questioning, Kenn continued on about Jeter:
Q. This is a termination letter from Mr. Sullivan to Mr. Jeter.
Kenn. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
Kenn. Yes.
Q. And can you identify for me the ground for his termination that’s identified in this letter?
Kenn. Not following the fundamental principles of the company, specifically that employees are
the foundation of a service company.
Q. And that’s one of the four—
Kenn. Three.
Q. Sorry. Three fundamental principles. Any other reason that you recall for Mr. Jeter’s
termination other than what’s identified in this letter?
Kenn. No.
Jeter was allegedly let go because “he wasn’t someone who was going to embrace the culture.”
That’s the exact same reason Kenn’s management team used against at least two of our illegally fired
FJ-POC “hostages”—they were accused of not being “happy” employees and not fitting in. Jeter was
also guilty of not following the “fundamental principles of the company,” whatever that means—
management most certainly ignores those principles.
The questioning continued:
Q. What was the reason that [Bowden] was terminated?
Kenn. That was indicative of the fact that this was a man that was never going to embrace the
culture wherein there’s open communication, wherein you’re trying to create a trusted
environment. He was never going to embrace that. That was my assessment. I have to
make that judgment call, and I made it. And I make that call several times a year. I make
it in indoc classes from watching people’s body language, but that’s what I get paid to do.

- - - Updated - - -

Bowden apparently committed the double sin of “never going to embrace the culture” and also
having bad body language. Just as was discovered in the case of the three illegally terminated FJ-
POC “hostages,” attached are a couple of revealing emails between Kenn and Bob Sullivan that
shows the extent to which the senior executives conspired to get their story straight about why they
were firing the Fab Five. They had to change their justification for firing Tom Bowden. Sullivan
stated in his email, “he has not yet visited HQ.” That’s where indoc took place so, HE WASN’T
EVEN THERE WHEN KENN SAID HE OBSERVED HIM!!!

- - - Updated - - -

And so you find that his video is more trustworthy?
 

rajflyboy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Posts
1,797
Total Time
17500
Vote YES to getting home on your last day. Get home and see your family.

Don’t vote out the union and end up on the 8 on 6 off schedule and by the way on day 8 they won’t have to get you home either. Who the heck would want that lifestyle?
 

airman2105

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Posts
56
Total Time
17000h
Mr Lumpy

You mean you have a choice? Take off your blinkers....and no tantrum on here, it makes you look bad.
 
Last edited:

EnFuego

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Posts
125
Mr. Airy, I DON'T NEED THIS GD, POS, WORTHLESS TEAMSTER UNION!!!!!

And you call the Union supporters vulgar thugs...wow...just wow.

- - - Updated - - -

Vote YES to getting home on your last day. Get home and see your family.

Don’t vote out the union and end up on the 8 on 6 off schedule and by the way on day 8 they won’t have to get you home either. Who the heck would want that lifestyle?

Exactly! Vote IBT Airline Division!
 

DirtyBeech

The Last Starfighter
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Posts
782
Total Time
Enough
Well thank you "Mr. Airy". I had to be careful how I post because someone else gave me a real hard time about making a mistake in choosing the wrong word. He got really mad at me about it.
I agree about "Higher-ups" scaring pilots. Higher-ups in the Teamsters have been using nothing but fear to try to intimidate voters. Kind of scummy if you ask me,
As for the origin of my posts..... Just a regular ole line pilot.
I also agree that a "Referee" is nice to have, but not a crooked one. Not one who makes calls for others and not for who's in the game playing. Not a Ref that holds a hidden agenda and does not listen to the players when they have a concern about a questionable call.
KR seems to be sincere and genuine is his latest video that was texted to us. I trust him more than I trust the Teamsters. Plain & simple. I believe him more than I believe the Teamsters.
I'm a practical man and I have thought about this "long & hard" as you said.
The particular teamsters involved with over-seeing this Local do not have the pilots' best interest at heart. That has been obvious for awhile.
The pilots that choose to leave, I wish them good luck. Those of us who choose to stay have every right to want what's best for our future here.
There are two opposing choices and the NMB election process is the best way to come to the most favored decision. What else needs to be said about that?

I made fun of your ridiculous attack on union members, by making such an attack on your spelling, and then I diagrammed it for you, because you still didn’t get it.
 

MOMOMOJO

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Posts
92
It doesn't matter which Teamster was leading us they wouldn't trust him. It doesn't matter if it was ALPA as a union they still would be doing this and the verbiage would be the same. Why? Because KR at one time said he would shut down FO if a union was voted in. That is a quote by the way. You guys are just playing to his music.

Maybe he also said that but he definitely said if a union was ever voted in he would resign. He massaged his words by explaining the union was voted in because of Sheeringa not him. Then in 2015 when a union was voted in under his rule he claimed he NEVER SAID IT, NEVER WROTE IT. Photocopies of his book and snippets of his video did not change his reality. He just kept on denying.

BTW did you know there's a former manager who's claiming Ricci refers to his pilots using extremely derogatory terms? Even the FoKs. Interesting. I suppose he can deny that too but once again, does print and video lie?

Mr. Airy, I DON'T NEED THIS GD, POS, WORTHLESS TEAMSTER UNION!!!!!

Wow. I thought the decert crowd was supposed to be comprised of all of these moral, God fearing, conservative truthers. I'm extremely offended by your remarks and it has nothing to do with being pro union. I guess you forgot about your talking points to the more faithful section of pilots who believe unions go against their religious beliefs (because they forget about Moses or the fact Paul was speaking of believers working for other believers etc.) but even so boldly risky of you to let your true self "sneaked" out so obviously.

Your temper proves your not ready for prime time. Cue FLFLYER1 to come in with some backup outing at the suggestion you guys can't keep your stories straight or run the course for the season of a campaign let alone beyond.

I'm stunned with how willing you guys are to display your inadequacy with such boldness.
 
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