Yet another 8 hour flight time issue

[pireps]

Okay, here's the scenario. Original schedule (part 121 scheduled operator): 7 legs, total scheduled flight time 7 hours, 15 minutes.
At the beginning of the day, they assign us the airplane with a deferred rudder limiter, meaning we can only fly 180 knots max indicated airspeed (as opposed to the usual 220+). Therefore, our flight times for each leg are substantially increased for the day. Now, does that constitute a breach in the 8 hour rule since it is known that the aircraft is slower than usual?

On another issue, if it's known that the weather will require de-icing on every leg, and that will cause the crew to go over 8 hours even though the "historic block times" for the schedule are less than 8 hours, is that still legal?

 

[PCL_128]

Okay, here's the scenario. Original schedule (part 121 scheduled operator): 7 legs, total scheduled flight time 7 hours, 15 minutes.
At the beginning of the day, they assign us the airplane with a deferred rudder limiter, meaning we can only fly 180 knots max indicated airspeed (as opposed to the usual 220+). Therefore, our flight times for each leg are substantially increased for the day. Now, does that constitute a breach in the 8 hour rule since it is known that the aircraft is slower than usual?

On another issue, if it's known that the weather will require de-icing on every leg, and that will cause the crew to go over 8 hours even though the "historic block times" for the schedule are less than 8 hours, is that still legal?

All of this is still perfectly legal. As long as scheduling doesn't add anything or change anything on your trip, you are legal because the trip was scheduled for less than 8 hours. Just keep an eye on the 16 hour rule. If you are getting close to 16 hours on duty and you still have one leg to go on the slow plane, you might have an argument to get released. Remember, if you will go over 16 hours on duty on your last leg, you cannot fly it. The 8 hours refers to scheduled time though. "Legal to start, legal to finish."

 

[FL000]

The explanation PCL gives above is correct for "circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder", but the question is whether the deferred item is beyond your company's control. You know going into the duty day that you're going to bust 8 hours of flight time, and I don't think that's the intent of the regulation loophole.

If I were in your spot, I'd call the CP. Barring a definitive answer from him, I'd call BS and tell scheduling they needed to duty me out on the last leg before the expectation of reaching 8 hours, or in domicile if that's easier for them.

The ever-cloudy pertinent regs here are 121.471(a)(4), and (g).

Ditto on the 16 hours though. Remember, there is NO way around that one. You have to be at rest.

 

[embdrvr]

My .02.
If the revised flight plans which will have to be filed at lower TAS call for excess of 8 hours I'd say don't do it.
The spirit of the regs allows for you to finish a shift when you get delayed by unanticipated factor. For example the wx drops @ CVG and you don't have enough fuel to hold so off you go to your alternate gumming up the works for the day.
In your scenario nothing is unanticipated. They know at the beginning of the shift that the airplane will have to fly slow. If it broke during your shift it would be OK for you to continue.

 

[chperplt]

pireps

Just curious......Do you fly for a union, or non union company?

 

[pireps]

No union.

 

[Snoopy58]

from FAR 121.471

(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time
in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned
are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to
circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse
weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their
destination within the scheduled time.

Is deicing a "circumstance beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions)"? Gotta think that it is. What about the MEL item that limits the aircraft's speed? Seems beyond their control to me. Maybe not if they have the entire fleet limited to the slower airspeed & have to publish a new schedule, but a one-time one-day event is beyond their control, and beyond their ability to plan for in advance.

What is published in the schedule is what is scheduled... delays that you find out about the day of the flight do not change what is "scheduled." The company will take DOT "late" hits against the published schedule, not against what you anticipate will happen when you show up at the aircraft. It was a legal day to assign to you when all the pairings got made up a month before, so you're legal to start it, so you're legal to finish it.

Just watch the crew duty day & crew rest restrictions... they work differently.

 

[chperplt]

No union

Would that non union carrier be headquartered somewhere near the nations capital?

If so... I've had a few discussions over similar issues in the past and told (yelled at) it was legal. A 10 leg day blocked at 7 hours 59 minutes.. Yea, that's realistic scheduling all right!

What's needed is a letter to the FAA asking their thoughts on the matter.

 

[pireps]

No, we're not on the east coast. Our schedules are usually fairly reasonable, with around 4-6 hours of scheduled flying for a given day.

 

[pireps]

It seems like most people (pilots) I've spoken to interpret the issue like this: if you're about to start your last leg, but at that point have ACTUALLY flown let's say 7:45 hours, then you can't start that last leg if it's scheduled for anything more than 15 minutes. My take is that if the original schedule for the day is less than 8 hours, and the day's schedule isn't changed, that last leg can be completed, regardless of how much time has actually been flown (always keeping that duty time in mind, of course). The FAA published the "Withlow letter" about a year ago which did a pretty good job of clarifying the duty time limitations/rest requirement issue.
But this 8 hour flight time reg is still too ambiguous since many people have different opinions about it.
I guess another "gray area" is the question of HOW FAR IN ADVANCE is the day scheduled? Is it a month before, the morning of? Whenever it's published officially?